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‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement[W:25]

Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Grand Mal said:
I wonder who owned America when Jerusalem was last in the hands of the Jews.
What conservatism is about is taking a snapshot of a moment in history, declaring it to be the perfect moment, and doing whatever's necessary to 'conserve' that moment. In the case of Jerusalem, that moment was a long time ago.

Wikipedia's a good source, if you use the footnoted links to references.
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Ya, I mean, I didn't want to go directly to the North American example with the good Captain, as I am hoping for a response, and feel that he might find defaulting to connecting those dots a bit too meme-y to bother responding to, but I agree, it's a heck of an example, if a little over played.

But if one is tired of the colonialism examples, certainly there are plenty of examples of regions who's ownership and borders (or even existence - my grandfather died only a few years ago, but still self identified as Prussian, for example) were changed through war, which would probably be a better equivalency for this discussion anyway.

As for Wiki, ya, I know...as I said, was feeling lazy, and it didn't seem overly controversial.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

celticwar17 said:
I side with Israel against countries/people who are trying to take it's sovereignty away.
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I'm sure you'd have no problem with a few million more Mexicans coming over the border and taking back the Southwest, because that is exactly what the Zionists did with the Palestinian region. Or do you only get to do that if you have a holy book backing up your claim?
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

CJ 2.0 said:
Dude, an unprovoked war of aggression to destroy another state and commit genocide (as defined in treaties) is the quintessential definition of "illegal" under "international law". This shouldn't be hard for someone purportedly committed to international law and the outcomes prescribed by such law...



Woopedy-doo. The Jordanians launched their offensive when they were lead to believe that the Israeli defences in the south were smashed and Egypt was in the process of conquering Israel. The Jordnaian objective was to assist Egypt in completing that objective.

So regardless of the nobility of the Jordanian solider or whether the Jordanian leadership had the genocidal intent that Nasser had (they didn't), they launched an unprovoked war against what they thought was a defenseless foe for the purpose of destroying its sovereign existence.

So you know what, I'm pretty sure that they themselves didn't want to kill all the Jews doesn't mean much.




You know Rabin never supported Palestinian independence, right? And nice touch with the parting demonization shot. Really made the difference...
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Except for the fact that unlike the Egyptians and Syrians, the Jordanians were uninterested in wiping out the Jews. They wanted the land, sure, but they weren't going to murder thousands of people once they had it. As I pointed out earlier, Israel and Jordan have had decent relations for decades--- a rather telling point when you consider the fact that they were supposedly chomping at the bit to wipe out all Jews.

The Jordanian offensive was designed to help win a war? Truly shocking. Here I thought they launched their offensive to count daisies. :roll:

You realize that Rabin was actually committed to a peace process and genuinely willing to negotiate, and he was murdered for that--- not by an Arab, but by an Israeli.....right?

That doesn't set a good precedent. At all.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

What if...? said:
There is some disconnect when a group claims no need to follow rules then cries about people who won't obey the rules.
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CJ 2.0 said:
LOL. Watch teh short video in the following:

Day of rage in Jerusalem: Palestinians protest, clash with police - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

All of the comments from the Palestinians are that this changes nothing, Jerusalem is occupied just like Tel Aviv and Haifa, Jerusalem is the "eternal capital of Palestine" and I refuse the existence of the state of israel and similar nonsense.

Exhibit A for why the traditional approach has failed and why the world needs to move on and leave the Palestinians to wallow in their own misery until they come to terms with a reality-based approach to existing.
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Yeah! They got ****ed fair and square!

Maybe they'll get a reservation and be forced to got to "Arab schools".
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Captain Adverse said:
They've come home. They are independent and capable of defending their nation now.
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When do the Native Americans get their land back?
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Angelus said:
‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Ahead of Trump's pronouncement, close U.S. allies such as Britain, France and Germany had criticized him and questioned the wisdom of such a move. German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said Tuesday that the pursuit of such policies by the Trump administration is why traditional U.S.-European ties have started to “crumble.”

“We all know the far-reaching impact this move would have,” Gabriel said. “Germany’s position on this issue remains unchanged: A solution to the Jerusalem problem can only be found through direct negotiations between both parties. Everything which worsens the crisis is counterproductive.”

In Russia, the Kremlin also joined the list of nations fearing that such a move will exacerbate tensions between Israel and Palestinians, saying that the situation could worsen as a result. It was one of the few times a Kremlin foreign policy goal has converged with that of most NATO member states.Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said the U.S. plan is “unlawful” and could have “irreversible consequences” in the region.

So, looks like Trump managed to unite the whole damn world against us this time.

I can't think of anything more likely to cause attacks than recognizing Jerusalem as the capitol or Israel.The only group that will happy with this is religious fanatics - including evangelicals around the world and right wing Israelis. I can't think of any group in the US who benefits by this other than the 'end is nigh' crowd pushing for the 3rd temple. What possible reason could he have for making this decision?

Right now I am betting a reversal will come - because this is ridiculous.
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Cardinal said:
Again, and I can't stress this enough, Trump is really good at finding important cultural symbols and using them to divide and conquer.

What I wouldn't give for people, black and white, gay and straight, and Jew and Palestine alike, to unite as brother and sister and say, "Donald, take your divisive **** elsewhere and go to hell."
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PoS said:
This type of silly announcement does nothing but invite more terror attacks. America needs to stop meddling in that region and just leave.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Embassy_Act

It's been US policy since 1995. Get a clue already.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

What if...? said:
There is some disconnect when a group claims no need to follow rules then cries about people who won't obey the rules.
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Yes, that is why the Palestinians cries are so baffling. Their entire national purpose is built around denying Jews self determination and their entire strategy has been to systematically engage in terror and mayhem, yet they keep spouting on about law and justice as if they have any idea what that means or care about it other than in respect of how it benefits them.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

What if...? said:
There is some disconnect when a group claims no need to follow rules then cries about people who won't obey the rules.
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CJ 2.0 said:
Yes, that is why the Palestinians cries are so baffling. Their entire national purpose is built around denying Jews self determination and their entire strategy has been to systematically engage in terror and mayhem, yet they keep spouting on about law and justice as if they have any idea what that means or care about it other than in respect of how it benefits them.
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But arguments can be made about who started it.

Just not in this forum.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

Tigerace117 said:
Except for the fact that unlike the Egyptians and Syrians, the Jordanians were uninterested in wiping out the Jews. They wanted the land, sure, but they weren't going to murder thousands of people once they had it.
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Lol. Sure. They were just going to help those that wanted to conquor the territory and then stand by and do nothing while those folks did what they wanted.

It was still aggression and still a "war crime" for those keeping track in the "international law" hypocrisy game. And generally helping those who are looking to commit genocide isn't given a pass because you had no intent to participate in the genocide yourself.

As I pointed out earlier, Israel and Jordan have had decent relations for decades--- a rather telling point when you consider the fact that they were supposedly chomping at the bit to wipe out all Jews.
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Yes. No one is saying the Jordanian reasons for starting that war against Israel were not complex or that the Jordanian leadership isn't more moderate and rational than others in the region.

But they started a war of aggression to help destroy Israel and they lost. They ended up losing territory to Israel and have now officially relinquished that control. So that's the end of it really.

The Jordanian offensive was designed to help win a war? Truly shocking. Here I thought they launched their offensive to count daisies. :roll:
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Yes, a war of aggression that was a war crime by any traditional, consistent definition of the term, against another country which did not raise a hand against them and explicitly told them not to attack and they would be left alone.

You realize that Rabin was actually committed to a peace process and genuinely willing to negotiate, and he was murdered for that--- not by an Arab, but by an Israeli.....right?

That doesn't set a good precedent. At all.
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/rabin...white-house-handshake-letter-from-1994-shows/
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

What if...? said:
Yeah! They got ****ed fair and square!

Maybe they'll get a reservation and be forced to got to "Arab schools".
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Right. :roll:
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

What if...? said:
But arguments can be made about who started it.

Just not in this forum.
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The Jordanians started it. Really isn't that complicated or in dispute.

And yes, I know the arguments that Israel was supposed to do nothing while Egypt committed acts of war, declared its intention to destroy Israel and mobilized tens of thousands on its borders.

They are wrong (and sort of dumb), but I understand them.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

CJ 2.0 said:
The Jordanians started it. Really isn't that complicated or in dispute.

And yes, I know the arguments that Israel was supposed to do nothing while Egypt committed acts of war, declared its intention to destroy Israel and mobilized tens of thousands on its borders.

They are wrong (and sort of dumb), but I understand them.
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Its always interesting how the actions of a state are used to justify actions against civilians.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

EMNofSeattle said:
The Jews de facto own it today. There’s no laws of physics requiring the Moslems to own Jerusalem
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I agree. My issue is with the perception that the Jews have some kind of natural right to own it because there was a period centuries ago when they did.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

What if...? said:
Its always interesting how the actions of a state are used to justify actions against civilians.
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What actions against civilians?
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

CJ 2.0 said:
What actions against civilians?
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Taking their homes because they ran away from them during the fighting.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

What if...? said:
Taking their homes because they ran away from them during the fighting.
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From the war in 1967? I don't think that happened.

From the 1948 war? That was very different and that's what happens in those sorts of wars that establish states. Look at the displacement from India and Pakistan, for example. You want to discuss Israel's founding (and the Palestinians' continued refusal to accept Israel's existence, fine. But do so in the context of the 1940s and everything that happened across the globe in that decade. Don't develop a secret separate standard just for the Jews and divorce what happened in Israel from other related conflicts and events.

But in any event, there were more Jews ethnically cleansed from Arab countries than Arabs displaced by Israel's creation and successful defence (and millions more Indians and Pakistanis displaced the year before, which no one seems to care about, and millions more ethnic Germans systematically expelled from Czechoslovakia, which no one seems to care about, etc.). The homes taken from Arabs displaced in the War of Independence were used to resettle refugees from Arab countries who were cleansed without any of their property. So all in all while unfortunate well within usual bounds of conduct in those types of events and the purposes to which those properties were put is head and shoulders above what is typically seen (or what was seen of the properties taken when Jews were thrown out of Arab countries).
 
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Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

OlNate said:
Do you think historic regional ownership really dictates modern ownership, though? Not asking this question to be a jerk, just thinking that if that were applied evenly across the globe, we'd have to drastically change our maps, borders, and governments. Is that a valid claim today? I just wonder how you'd sort it all out, especially in Israel. In doing a quick check, the Jews really haven't "owned" it that much...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel

(Sorry for the Wikipedia link, was a quick reference, and I'm a little lazy at the moment to find a better source, but will look, if you don't like it)
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I sort it out quite simply. Right of conquest (or more appropriately, reclamation by force).

The same rule that has allowed government's everywhere to claim ownership of territory and do with it as they deem appropriate.

The Jews have retaken their homeland. They are capable of defending it (as shown every time opponents tried to take it back) by force of arms.

That's good enough for me.

Geoist said:
When do the Native Americans get their land back?
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See above.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

CJ 2.0 said:
From the war in 1967? I don't think that happened.

From the 1948 war? That was very different and that's what happens in those sorts of wars that establish states. Look at the displacement from India and Pakistan, for example. You want to discuss Israel's founding (and the Palestinians' continued refusal to accept Israel's existence, fine. But do so in the context of the 1940s and everything that happened across the globe in that decade. Don't develop a secret separate standard just for the Jews and divorce what happened in Israel from other related conflicts and events.

But in any event, there were more Jews ethnically cleansed from Arab countries than Arabs displaced by Israel's creation and successful defence (and millions more Indians and Pakistanis displaced the year before, which no one seems to care about, and millions more ethnic Germans systematically expelled from Czechoslovakia, which no one seems to care about, etc.). The homes taken from Arabs displaced in the War of Independence were used to resettle refugees from Arab countries who were cleansed without any of their property. So all in all while unfortunate well within usual bounds of conduct in those types of events and the purposes to which those properties were put is head and shoulders above what is typically seen (or what was seen of the properties taken when Jews were thrown out of Arab countries).
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So the people who got ****ed in the process should suffer the consequences of others' actions.

And just shut up and take it.

Nice place you got there. I'll have that now. Beat it.
 
This thread stinks to High Heaven of red herrings.

Rights to exist, ownership of Jerusalem, all that stuff is irrelevant.

The issue is what is right for the USA.

Does moving the embassy improve the USA's lot in life?

That's the actual issue.
 
Gonna be a part of his "great legacy" for The Donald, this selfish decision to "be the one" to recognize Jerusalem...it's more important, as he trolls thru the limits of his power...to find the low-hanging fruit that he can enable merely with his signature.

The destabilization, lives lost, and results be damned! It's more important to put another notch on his golf club.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

What if...? said:
So the people who got ****ed in the process should suffer the consequences of others' actions.

And just shut up and take it.

Nice place you got there. I'll have that now. Beat it.
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Funny, that's what happened to all the Jews in the ME. And that is what the Arabs tried to do to the Jews in Israel in 1948.

Now please. Thoughts on the Sudeten Germans? The population exchanges between India and Pakistan? Just as a start as there are lots more and I am curious as to your views on the same things happening everywhere else around the world and why Israel's creation and the Jews finally securing their right to self-determination and collective self defence is such an issue that it requires a unique set of standards that apply only to its conduct and not to anything or anyone else.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

CJ 2.0 said:
Funny, that's what happened to all the Jews in the ME. And that is what the Arabs tried to do to the Jews in Israel in 1948.

Now please. Thoughts on the Sudeten Germans? The population exchanges between India and Pakistan? Just as a start as there are lots more and I am curious as to your views on the same things happening everywhere else around the world and why Israel's creation and the Jews finally securing their right to self-determination and collective self defence is such an issue that it requires a unique set of standards that apply only to its conduct and not to anything or anyone else.
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The PEOPLE who.lost their homes ejected no Jews.

The "crimes" were against individuals.

THEIR homes that their families had paid tribute/taxes to to whoever happened to be ruler at the time.

Taken without compensation and given to someone who had just arrived and had no part in building any of what they now got to enjoy.

That's what the anger is about.

It happens, but it is morally wrong.

Always.
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

What if...? said:
The PEOPLE who.lost their homes ejected no Jews.

The "crimes" were against individuals.

THEIR homes that their families had paid tribute/taxes to to whoever happened to be ruler at the time.

Taken without compensation and given to someone who had just arrived and had no part in building any of what they now got to enjoy.

That's what the anger is about.

It happens, but it is morally wrong.

Always.
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That's not what the anger is about. It never was. It is about the Jews having their independence in Israel.

And the people who lost their homes supported those who tried to expel the Jews.

And their homes were taken over by these people and those like them:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/murder-looting-burning-remembering-the-aden-riots-of-1947/
 
Re: ‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement

upsideguy said:
America has become a rogue nation.... this is only Exhibit F of the case.
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There are certainly folks that don't understand how international security works.
 
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