Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?[W:8]

This has been a long time coming, and I'm putting it in the general Middle East forum, instead of the Israel/Palestine forum because, although it addresses conflicts in which Israel is involved, it cites historical human shield abuses in Lebanon, not just in Palestine.

Using human shields is an international war crime, and yet, we rarely see any repercussions because those employing it are not always state-sponsored actors. Yet, the innocent are just as dead no matter who violates this rule.

My question to posters is whether these terrorist groups will change their ways if this bill passes. All discussion is welcome. You don't have to be pro-Lebanon, pro-Israel, or pro-anything to have an opinion on whether groups should be sanctioned for this violation of international law.

H.R. 3342 "Sanctioning Hizballah's Illicit use of Civilians as Defenseless Shields Act," is being considered in Congress right now, and if it passes, we well be able to impose sanctions on those entities that make use of human shields.

Some background that you don't always read in the media:

Despite existing sanctions, Hizballah continues to expand its military capabilities and remains “the most technically capable terrorist group in the world,” according to the State Department[1].

Human shields are civilians, prisoners of war, and other noncombatants whose presence is designed to protect combatants and military objects from attack. The use of human shields violates international law and human rights. Hizballah continues to use human shields in the conflict with the state of Israel, including storing weapons inside civilian homes and firing rockets from inside populated civilian areas[2].

According to the bill’s sponsor, “Since its creation, Hizballah has been an Iranian proxy dedicated to destroying Israel and combating American interests in the Middle East. From its bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in 1983, to its rocket attacks against Israel, to its expanding influence in Syria today. Hizballah’s terrorist activities have served as a direct challenge to the United States and our allies. The SHIELDS Act is a bipartisan effort to diminish Hizballah’s military capabilities and malign influence in the Middle East while advancing U.S. interests.”[3]

Click to expand...

https://policy.house.gov/legislativ...illicit-use-civilians-defenseless-shields-act

In short -- when you've seen the horrific photos of Arab children torn, limb from limb, or otherwise dead and desecrated, international law was violated -- not by Israel -- but by the terrorist factions that put those children in harm's way for the sole purpose of having them killed and then using the images as propaganda to turn the world against Israel.

There are, of course, times when Israel has stepped over the line, too, but nothing in comparison with what Hezbollah and Hamas have done when it comes to producing high civilian death tolls.

This isn't opinion. These flagrant violations of international law are documented.

Lebanon went on record claiming that the children were killed as a result of "indiscriminate attacks" but UN investigations reported that the vast majority of Israeli strikes were valid targets, meaning they hit targets were munitions were stored and from where missiles were fired. Hezbollah, however, was putting children and other innocents in those locations so they would be killed when Israel retaliated.

See Wiki for documented used of human shields.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

I mistakenly used the word, "Nations," in the title. It should be "Entities."

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Why is this limited to just Muslim nations? Israel has used civilians and children as human shields.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Aristaeus said:

Why is this limited to just Muslim nations? Israel has used civilians and children as human shields.

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No. The Neighbor Procedure that was outlawed by the Supreme Court in 2005 after the criticism it received was a policy to ask a Palestinian civilian who knew a wanted man to ask him to surrender thus preventing bloodshed.

No Palestinian civilian was ever harmed that way and that is absolutely not comparable with deliberately placing civilians around you to try and get them killed or to prevent your enemy from targeting you.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Apocalypse said:

No. The Neighbor Procedure that was outlawed by the Supreme Court in 2005 after the criticism it received was a policy to ask a Palestinian civilian who knew a wanted man to ask him to surrender thus preventing bloodshed.

No Palestinian civilian was ever harmed that way and that is absolutely not comparable with deliberately placing civilians around you to try and get them killed or to prevent your enemy from targeting you.

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The IDF forced civilians to enter houses that were potentially boobytrapped, and it has continued after 2005.

Human shields | B'Tselem

And civilians were injured while being used as human shields.

A Palestinian man injured in crossfire in the course of being used as a human shield by IDF soldiers, May 2007 | B'Tselem

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Aristaeus said:

The IDF forced civilians to enter houses that were potentially boobytrapped, and it has continued after 2005.

Human shields | B'Tselem

And civilians were injured while being used as human shields.

A Palestinian man injured in crossfire in the course of being used as a human shield by IDF soldiers, May 2007 | B'Tselem

Click to expand...

It hasn't continued after 2005 as the IDF chief of staff ordered the policy to stop. If it happened it was against IDF laws and I do recall a case from 2010 when two soldiers were punished and sent to military prison for doing that.

Again, cannot be compared with actually using civilians as human shields - having them surround you for the purpose of deterring an enemy from attacking or for the purpose of getting them killed so to be used as part of a propaganda campaign. That is what the Islamist terror groups are known for doing as part of their MO.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

HowardBThiname said:

This has been a long time coming, and I'm putting it in the general Middle East forum, instead of the Israel/Palestine forum because, although it addresses conflicts in which Israel is involved, it cites historical human shield abuses in Lebanon, not just in Palestine.

Using human shields is an international war crime, and yet, we rarely see any repercussions because those employing it are not always state-sponsored actors. Yet, the innocent are just as dead no matter who violates this rule.

My question to posters is whether these terrorist groups will change their ways if this bill passes. All discussion is welcome. You don't have to be pro-Lebanon, pro-Israel, or pro-anything to have an opinion on whether groups should be sanctioned for this violation of international law.

H.R. 3342 "Sanctioning Hizballah's Illicit use of Civilians as Defenseless Shields Act," is being considered in Congress right now, and if it passes, we well be able to impose sanctions on those entities that make use of human shields.

Some background that you don't always read in the media:


https://policy.house.gov/legislativ...illicit-use-civilians-defenseless-shields-act

In short -- when you've seen the horrific photos of Arab children torn, limb from limb, or otherwise dead and desecrated, international law was violated -- not by Israel -- but by the terrorist factions that put those children in harm's way for the sole purpose of having them killed and then using the images as propaganda to turn the world against Israel.

There are, of course, times when Israel has stepped over the line, too, but nothing in comparison with what Hezbollah and Hamas have done when it comes to producing high civilian death tolls.

This isn't opinion. These flagrant violations of international law are documented.

Lebanon went on record claiming that the children were killed as a result of "indiscriminate attacks" but UN investigations reported that the vast majority of Israeli strikes were valid targets, meaning they hit targets were munitions were stored and from where missiles were fired. Hezbollah, however, was putting children and other innocents in those locations so they would be killed when Israel retaliated.

See Wiki for documented used of human shields.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield

Click to expand...

How can they change their behavior regarding human shields? It is an integral strategic element of the way they must fight. They cannot wage war without targeting civilian populatiin and vital infrastructure.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Moderator's Warning:

The OP includes mentions of both Israel and Hamas, the Palestinian resistance movement. The discussion is going in that direction as well. So this thread is now moved to the I/P forum. Please take note of and abide by Martial Law. https://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/99774-me-forum-martial-law-concordance.html

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Apocalypse said:

No. The Neighbor Procedure that was outlawed by the Supreme Court in 2005 after the criticism it received was a policy to ask a Palestinian civilian who knew a wanted man to ask him to surrender thus preventing bloodshed.

No Palestinian civilian was ever harmed that way and that is absolutely not comparable with deliberately placing civilians around you to try and get them killed or to prevent your enemy from targeting you.

Click to expand...

But the IDF knows full well they are more likely to hit innocents than combatants. Gaza is so densely populated collateral damage is almost unavoidable when you are launching air strikes.

And that, of course, only helps the terrorists.

HowardBThiname said:

This has been a long time coming, and I'm putting it in the general Middle East forum, instead of the Israel/Palestine forum because, although it addresses conflicts in which Israel is involved, it cites historical human shield abuses in Lebanon, not just in Palestine.

Using human shields is an international war crime, and yet, we rarely see any repercussions because those employing it are not always state-sponsored actors. Yet, the innocent are just as dead no matter who violates this rule.

My question to posters is whether these terrorist groups will change their ways if this bill passes. All discussion is welcome. You don't have to be pro-Lebanon, pro-Israel, or pro-anything to have an opinion on whether groups should be sanctioned for this violation of international law.

H.R. 3342 "Sanctioning Hizballah's Illicit use of Civilians as Defenseless Shields Act," is being considered in Congress right now, and if it passes, we well be able to impose sanctions on those entities that make use of human shields.

Some background that you don't always read in the media:


https://policy.house.gov/legislativ...illicit-use-civilians-defenseless-shields-act

In short -- when you've seen the horrific photos of Arab children torn, limb from limb, or otherwise dead and desecrated, international law was violated -- not by Israel -- but by the terrorist factions that put those children in harm's way for the sole purpose of having them killed and then using the images as propaganda to turn the world against Israel.

There are, of course, times when Israel has stepped over the line, too, but nothing in comparison with what Hezbollah and Hamas have done when it comes to producing high civilian death tolls.

This isn't opinion. These flagrant violations of international law are documented.

Lebanon went on record claiming that the children were killed as a result of "indiscriminate attacks" but UN investigations reported that the vast majority of Israeli strikes were valid targets, meaning they hit targets were munitions were stored and from where missiles were fired. Hezbollah, however, was putting children and other innocents in those locations so they would be killed when Israel retaliated.

See Wiki for documented used of human shields.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield

Click to expand...

Surely as a terroist organisation Hizballah is allready, for all intents and purposes, under sanctions?

I personally don't think this would work. Terrorist organizations have shown multiple times they are willing to kill fellow Muslims in acts of terror, so I don't think they'll back away from sanctions. Rather, they would use them as a recruiting tool. I think this one would backfire.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

joG said:

How can they change their behavior regarding human shields? It is an integral strategic element of the way they must fight. They cannot wage war without targeting civilian populatiin and vital infrastructure.

Click to expand...

If you read the proposed bill, and its citations, you'll find that it's based on the fact that Israel did not "target" civilian populations, but rather that they targeted legitimate military populations and that Hezbollah (and Hamas) were the ones the purposefully put civilians in the path of destruction.

What the bill does is turn the propaganda around. I think we all agree that children should not die for wars adults start.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Tigerace117 said:

But the IDF knows full well they are more likely to hit innocents than combatants. Gaza is so densely populated collateral damage is almost unavoidable when you are launching air strikes.

And that, of course, only helps the terrorists.

Click to expand...

Yeah but that's in addition to the fact that organizations like Hamas actually work to get civilians in harm's way, by building tunnels inside the houses of civilians where they store weapons or militants, launching rockets from within blocks of buildings, hiding their rockets in UN schools and mosques, etc.

A combat manual of Hamas captured in the last war in 2014 actually described to its combatants the benefit of using the local civilians as human shields as this will make the IDF less effective when it attempts to avoid civilian casualties and as their deaths can be used for propaganda purposes.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Aristaeus said:

The IDF forced civilians to enter houses that were potentially boobytrapped, and it has continued after 2005.

Human shields | B'Tselem

And civilians were injured while being used as human shields.

A Palestinian man injured in crossfire in the course of being used as a human shield by IDF soldiers, May 2007 | B'Tselem

Click to expand...

B'Tselem isn't the most reliable source. They've been charged many times with misrepresentation and it wasn't too long ago that they actually had to admit one of their own group was antisemitic to the extent that he denied the Holocaust and called it a "lie."

I've found that the most reliable source is the final reports of Amnesty International and the United Nations, both of which have investigated multiple accusations against Israel, only to find that Hezbollah and Hamas were the responsible culprits.

I don't want to make that sound as if all Palestinians/Lebanese are bad, because, of course, they are not. Many want only to raise their children in peace, as we do. Unfortunately, there are too many that are willing to sacrifice their children in this on-going battle.

The question is whether sanctions will be successful in reducing the use of human shields.

I'm not positive that they will, because I'm not sure that the groups using them will be affected by the sanctions. On the other hand, if we lean on Iran, Iran may lean on Hezbollah.

It's too soon to tell, but I think it's an interesting idea.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Apocalypse said:

Yeah but that's in addition to the fact that organizations like Hamas actually work to get civilians in harm's way, by building tunnels inside the houses of civilians where they store weapons or militants, launching rockets from within blocks of buildings, hiding their rockets in UN schools and mosques, etc.

A combat manual of Hamas captured in the last war in 2014 actually described to its combatants the benefit of using the local civilians as human shields as this will make the IDF less effective when it attempts to avoid civilian casualties and as their deaths can be used for propaganda purposes.

Click to expand...

That is correct.

We're talking about a group (Hamas or Hezbollah) that finds justification in strapping bombs on their young and sending them into crowded Israeli marketplaces, after all.

I've been told that's because the ones who are causing the problem come from deeply religious sects that seem extreme even to other Muslims. They truly believe their loved one will reap untold rewards upon entering heaven. And, plus, Hamas has been known to financially support the families of "martyrs."

OlNate said:

I personally don't think this would work. Terrorist organizations have shown multiple times they are willing to kill fellow Muslims in acts of terror, so I don't think they'll back away from sanctions. Rather, they would use them as a recruiting tool. I think this one would backfire.

Click to expand...

I'm kind of thinking along these lines myself. If you'd sacrifice a loved one -- it's unlikely that sanctions will convince you.

They could very well turn this around to make it look as though they're the victims, not the bad guys.

Good analysis.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Apocalypse said:

Yeah but that's in addition to the fact that organizations like Hamas actually work to get civilians in harm's way, by building tunnels inside the houses of civilians where they store weapons or militants, launching rockets from within blocks of buildings, hiding their rockets in UN schools and mosques, etc.

A combat manual of Hamas captured in the last war in 2014 actually described to its combatants the benefit of using the local civilians as human shields as this will make the IDF less effective when it attempts to avoid civilian casualties and as their deaths can be used for propaganda purposes.

Click to expand...

Except that's not the way the people whose relatives get blown to hell for being in the general vicinity see it, and they are the ones provided groups like Hezbollah and Hamas with their manpower and support.

The IDF trying to find a workaround by simply not trying to avoid civilian casualties backfires much harder on Israel than it does on the terrorists who created the mess in the first place.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Tigerace117 said:

Except that's not the way the people whose relatives get blown to hell for being in the general vicinity see it, and they are the ones provided groups like Hezbollah and Hamas with their manpower and support.

The IDF trying to find a workaround by simply not trying to avoid civilian casualties backfires much harder on Israel than it does on the terrorists who created the mess in the first place.

Click to expand...

The IDF does a lot to avoid civilian casualties, evidently more than any other military in the history of mankind.
Militaries of countries like the US, UK and others adopt tactics to avoid civilian casualties from the IDF and not vice versa.

You cannot however completely avoid civilian casualties and on the other hand it's even more obvious that you cannot just not attack those who are targeting your civilian population as it goes in contradiction with your obligation as the sole protector of those citizens, so we have this situation.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Apocalypse said:

The IDF does a lot to avoid civilian casualties, evidently more than any other military in the history of mankind.
Militaries of countries like the US, UK and others adopt tactics to avoid civilian casualties from the IDF and not vice versa.

You cannot however completely avoid civilian casualties and on the other hand it's even more obvious that you cannot just not attack those who are targeting your civilian population as it goes in contradiction with your obligation as the sole protector of those citizens, so we have this situation.

Click to expand...

While I'm sure hearing "the IDF cares the about civilian casualties out of any military in history" is a nice sop to the ego, reality doesn't back that up.

Gaza crisis: Toll of operations in Gaza - BBC News

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.ph...ion=toggle_view_desktop#Casualties_and_losses

But you can do things other than ensuring Hezbollah and Hamas will have steady streams of fighters in the future...... unless you are more concerned with looking flashy and trying to intimidate the neighbors than you are with defeating the terrorists.

It's hard to protect people when you are the one shooting rockets down their throats in an flailing attempt to take out the enemy.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Apocalypse said:

The IDF does a lot to avoid civilian casualties, evidently more than any other military in the history of mankind.
Militaries of countries like the US, UK and others adopt tactics to avoid civilian casualties from the IDF and not vice versa.

You cannot however completely avoid civilian casualties and on the other hand it's even more obvious that you cannot just not attack those who are targeting your civilian population as it goes in contradiction with your obligation as the sole protector of those citizens, so we have this situation.

Click to expand...

Israel has a right to defend itself. In fact, it has a duty to defend itself. However, there are international laws it has to abide by, which it doesn't. Israel has a history of using civilians as human shields amongst many other things.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

HowardBThiname said:

If you read the proposed bill, and its citations, you'll find that it's based on the fact that Israel did not "target" civilian populations, but rather that they targeted legitimate military populations and that Hezbollah (and Hamas) were the ones the purposefully put civilians in the path of destruction.

What the bill does is turn the propaganda around. I think we all agree that children should not die for wars adults start.

Click to expand...

Oh please stop this nonsense that Israel doesn't target civilian targets. We all know they do. Whether it's destroying farmers' olive groves as a form of collective punishment (illegal) or destroying peoples' homes.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Aristaeus said:

Oh please stop this nonsense that Israel doesn't target civilian targets. We all know they do. Whether it's destroying farmers' olive groves as a form of collective punishment (illegal) or destroying peoples' homes.

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Yes, homes have been destroyed if they're within the post-67 borders and have been used as hot-spots for terrorist activity. This is true. Olive groves have (much less often) been destroyed for the same reason - to keep the terrorist element at bay.

None of that has to happen, and it would not happen, if the Palestinians did not keep lobbing rockets into Israel. That's the trigger, as I'm sure you know.

That said -- international law considers buildings that house munitions to be valid military targets. The law also permits strikes on buildings from which attacks are fired.

What is against international law is using civilians as human shields, as both Hezbollah and Hamas have been doing for years.

While this bill (if it passes) will likely not stop the terrorist factions -- there's a chance that just the official recognition of the use of human shields will convince the intentional community to take a second look at the situation.

Historically, the problem has been that these factions, like Hezbollah, will fire attacks from Lebanon, and then Israel will fire back on valid military targets (according to international law). But, by the time Israel fires back. Hezbollah will have put many civilians in the path of the oncoming attack, purposefully putting those people in danger. And, of course, they are then killed.

While it's horrific to see the pictures of little ones torn limb from limb, it's important to recognize why it actually happened.

Consider a similar situation here in the States. Imagine if a terrorist faction in Neuvo Laredo (Old Mexico) starting firing rockets into Laredo (on the US side). There may initially be some warnings -- some beefing up of the border in that area -- but if the rockets continued, the US would hit back. And, over the course of decades of attacks from terrorists in Neuvo Laredo, it might even hit back hard at times. We might push the border back in that area in order to push the terrorist element back and tensions would run very high.

Then imagine that the US fired on the terrorist munitions storage on the outside of Neuvo Laredo, but by then, the terrorists were able to put all their wives and children at the storage facility. The US hits and there's a lot of collateral damage, but the fault for the deaths would not lie at the US' door, but rather at the terrorists' door.

That's what's happened since Israel became a state -- and the attacks continue today. Yes, Israel pushes back -- sometimes hard -- and sometimes with collective punishment, but, in the final analysis, the real fault lies with the terrorist factions that still refuse to acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist, and continues to lob rockets into the tiny state.

That's some background to how we reached this point, but this thread is really about what you think sanctions would (or would not) accomplish if officially used against Hezbollah and Hamas.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Tigerace117 said:

While I'm sure hearing "the IDF cares the about civilian casualties out of any military in history" is a nice sop to the ego, reality doesn't back that up.

Gaza crisis: Toll of operations in Gaza - BBC News

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.ph...ion=toggle_view_desktop#Casualties_and_losses

Click to expand...

You said yourself that Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world and the fact that the terror groups in there are indeed trying and actively working towards getting those civilians killed would ensure that even if the military targeting them does more than anyone else would to prevent civilian casualties there'd still be a lot of them.

This argument appealing to the numbers is a common logical fallacy promoted by those who are either ignorant of the situation or purposely seek to present the IDF in a certain light.
If the military of the US, UK or Canada even took on the terror groups in Gaza the toll would have been way higher.

As I've shown, the militaries of such countries learn from the IDF - the military that evidently attempts to avoid civilian casualties more than any military in the history of mankind - how to avoid civilian casualties, and not the other way.

But you can do things other than ensuring Hezbollah and Hamas will have steady streams of fighters in the future...... unless you are more concerned with looking flashy and trying to intimidate the neighbors than you are with defeating the terrorists.

It's hard to protect people when you are the one shooting rockets down their throats in an flailing attempt to take out the enemy.

Click to expand...

There's nothing practical in what you're saying, all I see is someone who wants to oppose the actions of a Western democracy defending itself from terrorists but can't find the words to grant morality to his position.
You're not saying anything like "the IDF should be doing X instead of Y" you're simply saying "hey civilians die when you target terrorists so stop targeting them and let them keep targeting your civilians with rockets and death tunnels in doing so". It's really quite ridiculous.

Anyhow, this thread is not about the Israeli measures taken to avoid civilian casualties, so we've been going off topic long enough.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Tigerace117 said:

Except that's not the way the people whose relatives get blown to hell for being in the general vicinity see it, and they are the ones provided groups like Hezbollah and Hamas with their manpower and support.

Click to expand...

You bring up a good point -- how do the relatives of the dead view the incidents. It incites them to rage, surely, that's expected, but there's something a little odd there, too. When it was easier to get through the checkpoints and into Israel, parents would send their children with bombs strapped on -- to blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces and kill as many Israelis as possible.

That's hard for westerners, who dote on their children, to understand. We would give our lives to protect our children, yet these parents willingly sacrifice theirs for their "cause." The only reasonable explanation (not acceptable, just reasonable) is that they are entrenched so deeply in an extremist form of their religion that it controls their lives.

So, how do these relatives feel when an IDF strike kills their children? It's hard to tell. The mothers, I would think, would be heartbroken and grieving. I've seen videos that indicate their grief is raw and real. Probably the fathers, too, but that feeling is tempered by the religious idealism that their relative is being "rewarded" in a better place. Religion is a very powerful form of control.

The IDF trying to find a workaround by simply not trying to avoid civilian casualties backfires much harder on Israel than it does on the terrorists who created the mess in the first place.

Click to expand...

You're right. It does backfire, but there's little else they can do -- and still remain a safe place for their citizens.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Aristaeus said:

Israel has a right to defend itself. In fact, it has a duty to defend itself. However, there are international laws it has to abide by, which it doesn't. Israel has a history of using civilians as human shields amongst many other things.

Click to expand...

That was already debunked.