Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?[W:8]

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

HowardBThiname said:

Yes, homes have been destroyed if they're within the post-67 borders and have been used as hot-spots for terrorist activity. This is true. Olive groves have (much less often) been destroyed for the same reason - to keep the terrorist element at bay.

None of that has to happen, and it would not happen, if the Palestinians did not keep lobbing rockets into Israel. That's the trigger, as I'm sure you know.

That said -- international law considers buildings that house munitions to be valid military targets. The law also permits strikes on buildings from which attacks are fired.

What is against international law is using civilians as human shields, as both Hezbollah and Hamas have been doing for years.

While this bill (if it passes) will likely not stop the terrorist factions -- there's a chance that just the official recognition of the use of human shields will convince the intentional community to take a second look at the situation.

Historically, the problem has been that these factions, like Hezbollah, will fire attacks from Lebanon, and then Israel will fire back on valid military targets (according to international law). But, by the time Israel fires back. Hezbollah will have put many civilians in the path of the oncoming attack, purposefully putting those people in danger. And, of course, they are then killed.

While it's horrific to see the pictures of little ones torn limb from limb, it's important to recognize why it actually happened.

Consider a similar situation here in the States. Imagine if a terrorist faction in Neuvo Laredo (Old Mexico) starting firing rockets into Laredo (on the US side). There may initially be some warnings -- some beefing up of the border in that area -- but if the rockets continued, the US would hit back. And, over the course of decades of attacks from terrorists in Neuvo Laredo, it might even hit back hard at times. We might push the border back in that area in order to push the terrorist element back and tensions would run very high.

Then imagine that the US fired on the terrorist munitions storage on the outside of Neuvo Laredo, but by then, the terrorists were able to put all their wives and children at the storage facility. The US hits and there's a lot of collateral damage, but the fault for the deaths would not lie at the US' door, but rather at the terrorists' door.

That's what's happened since Israel became a state -- and the attacks continue today. Yes, Israel pushes back -- sometimes hard -- and sometimes with collective punishment, but, in the final analysis, the real fault lies with the terrorist factions that still refuse to acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist, and continues to lob rockets into the tiny state.

That's some background to how we reached this point, but this thread is really about what you think sanctions would (or would not) accomplish if officially used against Hezbollah and Hamas.

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Your problem is that you completely ignore or try to justify Israel's illegal actions. They destroy olive farms as a form of collective punishment, this has been firmly established. Israel also has a history of using human shields.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Aristaeus said:

Your problem is that you completely ignore or try to justify Israel's illegal actions. They destroy olive farms as a form of collective punishment, this has been firmly established. Israel also has a history of using human shields.

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That too is completely wrong. When did Israel's military/police/whatever "destroy an olive farm as a form of a collective punishment"?

Don't spend too much time with propaganda websites such as B'Tselem and others.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Tigerace117 said:

While I'm sure hearing "the IDF cares the about civilian casualties out of any military in history" is a nice sop to the ego, reality doesn't back that up.

Gaza crisis: Toll of operations in Gaza - BBC News

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.ph...ion=toggle_view_desktop#Casualties_and_losses

But you can do things other than ensuring Hezbollah and Hamas will have steady streams of fighters in the future...... unless you are more concerned with looking flashy and trying to intimidate the neighbors than you are with defeating the terrorists.

It's hard to protect people when you are the one shooting rockets down their throats in an flailing attempt to take out the enemy.

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Point taken, but there is little Israel can do, other than what it's doing -- and that only occurs when a new intifada rises.

The long-term solution may be to just relocate the citizens of Gaza to the West Bank or Golan Heights. Gaza is the hot spot. It's the worst area for terrorist activity and attacks on Israel. Other surrounding areas have mellowed slightly over the years.

And, it's not just Israel that has trouble with Gaza -- Egypt also helps enforce the blockade because they, too, are at risk from the terrorists in Gaza.

Yet, Israel is the one who produces the electricity that Gaza uses as well as its fresh water.

Right now, there is an ongoing push by the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank to get rid of Hamas in Gaza, but that's very difficult. The PA has convinced Israel to cut back on the electricity to Gaza in an attempt to weaken Hamas. Israel and the PA are working together on that one.

Israel has been getting along much better with the PA in the past decade, and you have to remember that when gazans elected Hamas to lead them, that Hamas actually took members of the PA and threw them to their deaths from tall buildings in Gaza.

At some point, maybe we all have to cede that gazans should be relocated to the other side of Israel. It would drastically reduce the problem and it would protect the gazan citizens that continue to get caught in the line of fire.

Just a thought.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Aristaeus said:

Your problem is that you completely ignore or try to justify Israel's illegal actions. They destroy olive farms as a form of collective punishment, this has been firmly established. Israel also has a history of using human shields.

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There was ONE incident in an olive grove. ONE.

But what you call "collective punishment" doesn't come close to the war crimes committed by the terrorist factions that put the lives of innocent children in the line of fire. The destruction of the SINGLE olive grove was "property damage." What Hamas and Hezbollah do -- arrange for the deaths of innocents -- purposefully, is a much darker thing.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Apocalypse said:

That too is completely wrong. When did Israel's military/police/whatever "destroy an olive farm as a form of a collective punishment"?

Don't spend too much time with propaganda websites such as B'Tselem and others.

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There was one -- just one -- but it was a relatively new grove, not producing yet and it was illegally planted. The same thing would happen here in the US, and does, if the government decides to take the land by eminent domain because it serves a greater purposed. In the case of the grove, the ones planting it did so illegally and were attempting to push closer to Israel proper.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

HowardBThiname said:

There was one -- just one -- but it was a relatively new grove, not producing yet and it was illegally planted. The same thing would happen here in the US, and does, if the government decides to take the land by eminent domain because it serves a greater purposed. In the case of the grove, the ones planting it did so illegally and were attempting to push closer to Israel proper.

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I know which case you're talking about.
But notice that the quote includes the words "as a form of a collective punishment".

That case was, as you described it, of some Palestinian farmer illegally planting his trees on a land he knew was declared years ago as state land, falsely claiming that he privately owns the land even though he doesn't.
It wasn't a case of some farmer having his farm destroyed "as a form of collective punishment". Removing those trees was an act of law enforcement, not punishment for anyone/anything.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

HowardBThiname said:

There was ONE incident in an olive grove. ONE.

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:lamo

It's a regular thing.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Aristaeus said:

:lamo

It's a regular thing.

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Incorrect.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Apocalypse said:

I know which case you're talking about.
But notice that the quote includes the words "as a form of a collective punishment".

That case was, as you described it, of some Palestinian farmer illegally planting his trees on a land he knew was declared years ago as state land, falsely claiming that he privately owns the land even though he doesn't.
It wasn't a case of some farmer having his farm destroyed "as a form of collective punishment". Removing those trees was an act of law enforcement, not punishment for anyone/anything.

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Exactly. But the false narrative gets spread far and wide. If I plant a tree or shrub too close to the street and it blocks the view of drivers, I'm going to be told to take it out -- or the City will. Code enforcement is not collective punishment.

For decades now, the Palestinians have bucked the rules and then whined to the international community when the rules were enforced. The same thing goes for building their homes (really just crappy boxes) on disputed land. They do it on purpose because they know the boxes will have to be removed and they can use that to whine some more.

Unfortunately, they've become very good at propaganda, and the average person does takes their false narratives at face value and doesn't take the time to find out the truth.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

HowardBThiname said:

Exactly. But the false narrative gets spread far and wide. If I plant a tree or shrub too close to the street and it blocks the view of drivers, I'm going to be told to take it out -- or the City will. Code enforcement is not collective punishment.

For decades now, the Palestinians have bucked the rules and then whined to the international community when the rules were enforced. The same thing goes for building their homes (really just crappy boxes) on disputed land. They do it on purpose because they know the boxes will have to be removed and they can use that to whine some more.

Unfortunately, they've become very good at propaganda, and the average person does takes their false narratives at face value and doesn't take the time to find out the truth.

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It's a well-oiled propaganda machine indeed.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Aristaeus said:

:lamo

It's a regular thing.

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HowardBThiname said:

Incorrect.

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Seriously. First page of a Google search, Israeli source covering a 2 month period in the West bank:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.554690

Sept. 11: 500 trees burned on land belonging to the village of Deir al-Khatab.
Sept. 15: 17 olive trees chopped down on land belonging to the village of Kafr Laqif.
Sept. 17: 18 olive trees chopped down on land belonging to the village of Kafr Laqif.
Sept. 20: 27 olive trees burned in Kafr Qaddum.
Sept. 21: 70 trees chopped down in Kafr Qaddum.
Oct. 2: Serious damage to several olive trees on land belonging to the Raba'i family.
Oct. 2: Serious damage to about 30 olive trees in the village of Jitt.
Oct. 3: 48 olive trees of the Shatat family chopped down.
Oct. 5: Serious damage to 130 olive trees of the Fukha family.
Oct. 5: 15 olive trees chopped down and olives stolen in the village of Deir Sharaf.
Oct. 7: Serious damage to about 60 olive trees and olives stolen in the village of Jitt.
Oct. 7: Serious damage to eight olive trees on land belonging to the village of Ras Karkar.
Oct. 7: 35 olive trees in the village of Far'ata chopped down and about a quarter of the olive crop stolen.
Oct. 8: About 400 olive trees in the village of Jalud set on fire.
Oct. 13-14: Olive trees and grapevines vandalized in the village of Far'ata.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Aristaeus said:

Seriously. First page of a Google search, Israeli source covering a 2 month period in the West bank:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.554690

Sept. 11: 500 trees burned on land belonging to the village of Deir al-Khatab.
Sept. 15: 17 olive trees chopped down on land belonging to the village of Kafr Laqif.
Sept. 17: 18 olive trees chopped down on land belonging to the village of Kafr Laqif.
Sept. 20: 27 olive trees burned in Kafr Qaddum.
Sept. 21: 70 trees chopped down in Kafr Qaddum.
Oct. 2: Serious damage to several olive trees on land belonging to the Raba'i family.
Oct. 2: Serious damage to about 30 olive trees in the village of Jitt.
Oct. 3: 48 olive trees of the Shatat family chopped down.
Oct. 5: Serious damage to 130 olive trees of the Fukha family.
Oct. 5: 15 olive trees chopped down and olives stolen in the village of Deir Sharaf.
Oct. 7: Serious damage to about 60 olive trees and olives stolen in the village of Jitt.
Oct. 7: Serious damage to eight olive trees on land belonging to the village of Ras Karkar.
Oct. 7: 35 olive trees in the village of Far'ata chopped down and about a quarter of the olive crop stolen.
Oct. 8: About 400 olive trees in the village of Jalud set on fire.
Oct. 13-14: Olive trees and grapevines vandalized in the village of Far'ata.

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What you're missing there is that the majority of those results are not state-sponsored by Israel, but rather done by the settlers in the West Bank who feel the Palestinians are imposing on their territory. The state of Israel has, in fact, punished various settlers for destruction of Palestinian property, but you have to understand that every one of those groves are inside the post-67 lines. The settlers know the Palestinians do not have title to that property, and they run them off.

But, the state of Israel only came under fire for the single incident where it bulldozed and razed the olive grove, yet, even then, the Palestinians were in the wrong.

And, your link is to a piece by Amira Hass, who, although Jewish, is quite biased against Israel. She's lived and reported from the territories for years, and her work has often been shown to be biased.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Aristaeus said:

Seriously. First page of a Google search, Israeli source covering a 2 month period in the West bank:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.554690

Sept. 11: 500 trees burned on land belonging to the village of Deir al-Khatab.
Sept. 15: 17 olive trees chopped down on land belonging to the village of Kafr Laqif.
Sept. 17: 18 olive trees chopped down on land belonging to the village of Kafr Laqif.
Sept. 20: 27 olive trees burned in Kafr Qaddum.
Sept. 21: 70 trees chopped down in Kafr Qaddum.
Oct. 2: Serious damage to several olive trees on land belonging to the Raba'i family.
Oct. 2: Serious damage to about 30 olive trees in the village of Jitt.
Oct. 3: 48 olive trees of the Shatat family chopped down.
Oct. 5: Serious damage to 130 olive trees of the Fukha family.
Oct. 5: 15 olive trees chopped down and olives stolen in the village of Deir Sharaf.
Oct. 7: Serious damage to about 60 olive trees and olives stolen in the village of Jitt.
Oct. 7: Serious damage to eight olive trees on land belonging to the village of Ras Karkar.
Oct. 7: 35 olive trees in the village of Far'ata chopped down and about a quarter of the olive crop stolen.
Oct. 8: About 400 olive trees in the village of Jalud set on fire.
Oct. 13-14: Olive trees and grapevines vandalized in the village of Far'ata.

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Lol. Amira Hass.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Apocalypse said:

You said yourself that Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world and the fact that the terror groups in there are indeed trying and actively working towards getting those civilians killed would ensure that even if the military targeting them does more than anyone else would to prevent civilian casualties there'd still be a lot of them.

This argument appealing to the numbers is a common logical fallacy promoted by those who are either ignorant of the situation or purposely seek to present the IDF in a certain light.
If the military of the US, UK or Canada even took on the terror groups in Gaza the toll would have been way higher.

As I've shown, the militaries of such countries learn from the IDF - the military that evidently attempts to avoid civilian casualties more than any military in the history of mankind - how to avoid civilian casualties, and not the other way.



There's nothing practical in what you're saying, all I see is someone who wants to oppose the actions of a Western democracy defending itself from terrorists but can't find the words to grant morality to his position.
You're not saying anything like "the IDF should be doing X instead of Y" you're simply saying "hey civilians die when you target terrorists so stop targeting them and let them keep targeting your civilians with rockets and death tunnels in doing so". It's really quite ridiculous.

Anyhow, this thread is not about the Israeli measures taken to avoid civilian casualties, so we've been going off topic long enough.

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Except the body count shows that the IDF is not "doing more than anyone else" to avoid a body count. They are simply blasting away, and its only recently that such tactics have seen serious backlash from Western audiences.

When there are huge numbers of civilian casualties, there is every reason to criticize the actions of a group which seems bent on continuing the same old same old. What was that definition of insanity again? Oh yes.....doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.

Except the facts don't support that claim.But hey, whatever makes you feel good about yourself I suppose.

The rockets are ineffective at best; there is zero chance that said rockets are ever going to seriously threaten Israel. Israeli counterstrikes kill far more civilians than the terrorists' own rockets do.

As long as Israelis keep fooling themselves into thinking plastering civilian areas is a good thing, the situation will keep going. There's only so far being a "western democracy" gets you.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

HowardBThiname said:

You bring up a good point -- how do the relatives of the dead view the incidents. It incites them to rage, surely, that's expected, but there's something a little odd there, too. When it was easier to get through the checkpoints and into Israel, parents would send their children with bombs strapped on -- to blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces and kill as many Israelis as possible.

That's hard for westerners, who dote on their children, to understand. We would give our lives to protect our children, yet these parents willingly sacrifice theirs for their "cause." The only reasonable explanation (not acceptable, just reasonable) is that they are entrenched so deeply in an extremist form of their religion that it controls their lives.

So, how do these relatives feel when an IDF strike kills their children? It's hard to tell. The mothers, I would think, would be heartbroken and grieving. I've seen videos that indicate their grief is raw and real. Probably the fathers, too, but that feeling is tempered by the religious idealism that their relative is being "rewarded" in a better place. Religion is a very powerful form of control.



You're right. It does backfire, but there's little else they can do -- and still remain a safe place for their citizens.

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But thinking that your relative is in a better place is one thing; having them, in the eyes of the Palestinians civilians anyway, murdered is another thing entirely. When you can get killed for doing something or for doing nothing.....some people are going to choose doing something.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

HowardBThiname said:

Point taken, but there is little Israel can do, other than what it's doing -- and that only occurs when a new intifada rises.

The long-term solution may be to just relocate the citizens of Gaza to the West Bank or Golan Heights. Gaza is the hot spot. It's the worst area for terrorist activity and attacks on Israel. Other surrounding areas have mellowed slightly over the years.

And, it's not just Israel that has trouble with Gaza -- Egypt also helps enforce the blockade because they, too, are at risk from the terrorists in Gaza.

Yet, Israel is the one who produces the electricity that Gaza uses as well as its fresh water.

Right now, there is an ongoing push by the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank to get rid of Hamas in Gaza, but that's very difficult. The PA has convinced Israel to cut back on the electricity to Gaza in an attempt to weaken Hamas. Israel and the PA are working together on that one.

Israel has been getting along much better with the PA in the past decade, and you have to remember that when gazans elected Hamas to lead them, that Hamas actually took members of the PA and threw them to their deaths from tall buildings in Gaza.

At some point, maybe we all have to cede that gazans should be relocated to the other side of Israel. It would drastically reduce the problem and it would protect the gazan citizens that continue to get caught in the line of fire.

Just a thought.

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The problem is that 1) Israel is not a very big country, so moving them to the other side is unlikely to change matters much; 2) Most, Palestinians who have stuck it out will not willingly leave their homes---what level of force is it going to take to get them to leave?; 2A) How much hatred would be generated by forcibly marching people out?; and 3) settler are undoubtedly going to want to move in and take the land---and that's a spark to set off an even bigger insurrection.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Tigerace117 said:

Except the body count shows that the IDF is not "doing more than anyone else" to avoid a body count. They are simply blasting away, and its only recently that such tactics have seen serious backlash from Western audiences.

When there are huge numbers of civilian casualties, there is every reason to criticize the actions of a group which seems bent on continuing the same old same old. What was that definition of insanity again? Oh yes.....doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.

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Body counts don't show anything. Claiming they do is a logical fallacy as I've already pointed. Yes, an X number of civilians have died while going after the terrorists. Does it tell us anything about what measures were taken to avoid said civilian casualties? No. It's illogical to claim it does, and it's exactly this kind of lack of logic that drives the hordes of ignorant people who choose to discuss the topic and that's why the brainwashing system of the Palestinian Islamist terror groups works so well. They rely on that ignorance and they rely on that lack of logic as Howard pointed so well above.

The rockets are ineffective at best; there is zero chance that said rockets are ever going to seriously threaten Israel.

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Threaten Israel? Their role is not to threaten Israel's existence, Hamas terrorists aren't so dumb as to believe that they're destroying Israel by launching rockets. Their aim is to murder innocents like the 4 year old boy they murdered back in 2014 or countless of others before that. That's why they fill the rockets with nails and sharp metals so to maximize damage to civilians around the blast area.

I dunno but it does sound from your claims like your belief is that Israel should not react when millions of its citizens are being targeted for murder by dozens of thousands of rockets launched by these vile Islamist terrorists. That's ridiculous, that's insane and that's quite frankly evil. Do you not believe that a government has the obligation to defend its citizens in general or is something you only have in relation to Israel? If a terror group killed your mother with a rocket, you'd still claim the US government has no right to attack that terror group and attempt to prevent it from launching rockets, from arming itself? That's just weird.

Israeli counterstrikes kill far more civilians than the terrorists' own rockets do.

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And ISIS kill less civilians than the attacks of those who go after them do. We know. Again it's the same kind of lack of logic that is shown time after time in people who buy into this propaganda nonsense.
It also should be noted that the thousands of rockets launched into Israel don't generate the same amount of casualties (I feel like that's something you want to get an apology for almost) that Israeli attacks generate because Israel has a way to defend itself through alarm systems, shelters, the targeting of the rocket launchers, and of course the anti-Missile systems that Israel had developed. Without all those the death toll of Israeli civilians would naturally pass that of the Gazans. It should also be noted again that a death toll isn't a means to decide on anything and it's silly to claim otherwise.

As long as Israelis keep fooling themselves into thinking plastering civilian areas is a good thing, the situation will keep going. There's only so far being a "western democracy" gets you.

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I don't think Israelis are fooling themselves into thinking that, I do think you have some hidden reason to try and demonize and dehumanize even Israelis, whatever reason that is remains with you.
However I can say this; Israel will continue to defend itself, Israel will not sit idly by while its citizens are attacked and there's nothing you or anyone can do to change that so it's better to live with it and move forward.

Re: Sanctions Against Muslim Nations that Make Use of Human Shields?

Tigerace117 said:

But thinking that your relative is in a better place is one thing; having them, in the eyes of the Palestinians civilians anyway, murdered is another thing entirely. When you can get killed for doing something or for doing nothing.....some people are going to choose doing something.

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They can go after the ones who cause their deaths - Hamas terorrists.

Forcing a nation to defend itself by targeting its citizens while you're next to your own civilians means that you're responsible for any harm caused to those civilians.
If they choose to blame the nation that is forced to react, due to their hatred/ignorance/both/whatever, then so be it, but as you were told there's no alternative option where that nation being attacked is not defending itself, that's just not a possibility. Are you capable of recognizing that, are you capable of being practical and understanding this situation instead of discussing that which is not possible (The state that is attacked ignoring the attacks), or do you wish to continue to criticize what you can't use words to describe as wrong even.