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Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government

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PeteEU

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Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government | The Independent

[FONT=&quot]The panels were not built with proper permits and permissions, the authorities said, confiscating equipment belonging to the £307,000 humanitarian project last week.[/FONT]
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Okay.. but

[FONT=&quot]Critics points out that building permissions for new Palestinian homes and infrastructure are [/FONT]almost impossible[FONT=&quot] to obtain.[/FONT]
Click to expand...

Why is that?

Is it only the west bank?

Only 7% of Jerusalem building permits go to Palestinian neighborhoods - Israel News - Haaretz.com

A careful examination of the data shows that the situation is even more dire. Of the 158 building permits issued to East Jerusalem neighborhoods this past year, more than two-thirds have been for the neighborhood of Beit Hanina, while only 51 permits were issued for all the rest of Jerusalem’s Arab neighborhoods.
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Sure smells like something other "problematic" countries have done in history.
 
A century ago, the Dutch government might have been sympathetic to the plight of the Jewish people .. Things are far different today .. its now the plight of the Palestinian people ...
 
earthworm said:
A century ago, the Dutch government might have been sympathetic to the plight of the Jewish people .. Things are far different today .. its now the plight of the Palestinian people ...
Click to expand...

So what is this plight of the Jewish of the people? Israel seems to be doing just fine for itself.
 
Regardless of where you stand on the rights of Israel and or Palestine to live in the territory.

And regardless of all the awful acts both sides have committed against each other.

This is quite clearly out of line, and they justify it by waving building permits in people's faces? Seriously?
 
PeteEU said:
Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government | The Independent



Okay.. but



Why is that?

Is it only the west bank?

Only 7% of Jerusalem building permits go to Palestinian neighborhoods - Israel News - Haaretz.com



Sure smells like something other "problematic" countries have done in history.
Click to expand...


I think that probably the Palestinians and Israeli have troubled relations, which might explain the troubles. Maybe Holland should talk with the Israeli before helping the people that have sabotaged any peace for forty years by sending child-bombs into cafes or rockets into Israel. They don't have to, of course, but they do have to reckon that ignoring Israeli security will not create friendly responses.
 
earthworm said:
A century ago, the Dutch government might have been sympathetic to the plight of the Jewish people .. Things are far different today .. its now the plight of the Palestinian people ...
Click to expand...

This is happening in a number of European countries. It might be interesting to see the impact on Europe, should a nasty war break out again, which is probably not so improbable for the near future. Or should we believe that Hamas etc have finally rejected violence as a tool?
 
RE: Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government
※→ PeteEU, et al,

I certainly hope there is more to this than the allegation as stated here.

PeteEU said:
Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government | The Independent

Okay.. but

Why is that?

Is it only the west bank?

Only 7% of Jerusalem building permits go to Palestinian neighborhoods - Israel News - Haaretz.com

Sure smells like something other "problematic" countries have done in history.
Click to expand...
(COMMENT)

There are many Americans (and other nationalities) that go out of their way to defend the sovereign integrity of the Israelis. But every time the Israelis are cited for interfering with the Arab Palestinians from making improvements for their population, it makes it reduces that much Political and Civil capital in support of the Israelis.

Unless there is a legitimate internal security issues posted by multinational improvement projects such as this, interference such as noted here, only makes the Israelis look totally unfair, irrational, vindictive and irresponsible.


  • What can the Israelis be thinking?
  • What security concern is there?

This is a utility infrastructure improvement to energy conservation.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
ForeignRightist said:
Regardless of where you stand on the rights of Israel and or Palestine to live in the territory.

And regardless of all the awful acts both sides have committed against each other.

This is quite clearly out of line, and they justify it by waving building permits in people's faces? Seriously?
Click to expand...

The Europeans have been flouting the law when it comes to building in territories they are not allowed. Israel should firmly prevent any construction or other funding by the Europeans in areas where the Europeans have not gone through proper channels and secured the required approvals.

Really is that simple. Take a read through the book called Catch the Jew by Tuvia Tenenbom.
 
Re: Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government
※→ CJ 2.0, et al,

There are at least two-sides to ever issue; pertaining to Israel and what is described as the occupied Palestinian territories (oPt).


CJ 2.0 said:
The Europeans have been flouting the law when it comes to building in territories they are not allowed. Israel should firmly prevent any construction or other funding by the Europeans in areas where the Europeans have not gone through proper channels and secured the required approvals.

Really is that simple. Take a read through the book called Catch the Jew by Tuvia Tenenbom.
Click to expand...
(COMMENT)

This is a very strange condition. "CJ 2.0" certainly is correct when he says "Israel should firmly prevent any construction or other funding by the Europeans in areas where the Europeans have not gone through proper channels and secured the required approvals." This of course is the "compliance oriented perspective" and checklist mentality (ticking the boxes - thinking is an activity considered essential to humanity but obviously not employed in this particular action). And this tick-the-box mentality, is a block set of procedures that anyone can read and follow, requires no thought at all, and where employed - but no one can actually articulate why. No one can really articulate the nature of the threat that induced the Israeli to stop the positive infrastructure improvements. What must have the Israelis been thinking was such a threat that it required a raid on the solar farm.

In the interim period where the Israelis and Palestinians are hammering-out the set of conditions that will guide relationship (the Israeli and Palestinians) into the 21st Century, we must (absolutely must) identify and firm-up the links between economic growth and territorial development of whatever comes after the disaster that we call the Middle East.

Israel needs to be building bridges and alliances; not tearing them down. Absent a true security threat, there should have been a much more diplomatic resolution that would grant the necessary approvals and eliminate the Eliot Ness style incursion into Jubbet al-Dhib (hardly a bastion of threats).

Although it was a legal decision and action on the part of Israeli authorities, it appears to the outside observer that, it was a case of the Israeli authorities performing a proper act in a wrongful or injurious manner. This looks like an act intended to retard the Palestinians from making a peaceful and useful contribution to the energy utility infrastructure. Is that not, at least in part, an objective in turning Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) from violence and toward improvements and productivity.

This Israeli decision is further compounded if the materials confiscated were destroyed.

Normally, I defend the Israelis. I know that given the opportunity to do harms to the State of Israel, the HoAP would not hesitate to take it. But in this case, it seems the Israelis were in the wrong. It does not radiate the confidence, to the outside observer, that the Israelis are not able to handle the more complex decision like those of making progresses towards peace.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
CJ 2.0 said:
The Europeans have been flouting the law when it comes to building in territories they are not allowed. Israel should firmly prevent any construction or other funding by the Europeans in areas where the Europeans have not gone through proper channels and secured the required approvals.
Click to expand...

Yes, because Isreal controls all the comings and goings since Gaza and the West Bank is one huge prison camp in which they oppress men, women and children.

Let us not forget that not too long ago the Isrealis did not even allow chocolate and pasta to be brought in (they only did allow them after the world found out about it). Thats how evil they are.
 
RoccoR said:
Re: Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government
※→ CJ 2.0, et al,

There are at least two-sides to ever issue; pertaining to Israel and what is described as the occupied Palestinian territories (oPt).



(COMMENT)

This is a very strange condition. "CJ 2.0" certainly is correct when he says "Israel should firmly prevent any construction or other funding by the Europeans in areas where the Europeans have not gone through proper channels and secured the required approvals." This of course is the "compliance oriented perspective" and checklist mentality (ticking the boxes - thinking is an activity considered essential to humanity but obviously not employed in this particular action). And this tick-the-box mentality, is a block set of procedures that anyone can read and follow, requires no thought at all, and where employed - but no one can actually articulate why. No one can really articulate the nature of the threat that induced the Israeli to stop the positive infrastructure improvements. What must have the Israelis been thinking was such a threat that it required a raid on the solar farm.

In the interim period where the Israelis and Palestinians are hammering-out the set of conditions that will guide relationship (the Israeli and Palestinians) into the 21st Century, we must (absolutely must) identify and firm-up the links between economic growth and territorial development of whatever comes after the disaster that we call the Middle East.

Israel needs to be building bridges and alliances; not tearing them down. Absent a true security threat, there should have been a much more diplomatic resolution that would grant the necessary approvals and eliminate the Eliot Ness style incursion into Jubbet al-Dhib (hardly a bastion of threats).

Although it was a legal decision and action on the part of Israeli authorities, it appears to the outside observer that, it was a case of the Israeli authorities performing a proper act in a wrongful or injurious manner. This looks like an act intended to retard the Palestinians from making a peaceful and useful contribution to the energy utility infrastructure. Is that not, at least in part, an objective in turning Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) from violence and toward improvements and productivity.

This Israeli decision is further compounded if the materials confiscated were destroyed.

Normally, I defend the Israelis. I know that given the opportunity to do harms to the State of Israel, the HoAP would not hesitate to take it. But in this case, it seems the Israelis were in the wrong. It does not radiate the confidence, to the outside observer, that the Israelis are not able to handle the more complex decision like those of making progresses towards peace.

Most Respectfully,
R
Click to expand...

Israel controls area C of the West Bank and thus building permits are required whenever anyone wishes to build anything there. Otherwise there is only anarchy.
Referring to it as an act of "revenge" or any other similarly silly suggestion is absurd.
Israel had just approved a plan to increase the size of a major Palestinian West Bank city, is that an act of "revenge" as well?
Israeli plan to double size of Qalqilya enrages settler leaders | The Times of Israel

So Israel doesn't act in vengeance. It merely upholds the rule of law.
As usual it is ignorance of the reality on the ground that is the major weapon of the immoral & backwards anti-Israeli agenda.
 
Apocalypse said:
So Israel doesn't act in vengeance. It merely upholds the rule of law.
Click to expand...
Yes, the it upholds the oppressive laws it created against the Palestinians even though they have no say in it. Well done in twisting the facts to suit your propaganda as usual.
 
PoS said:
Yes, the it upholds the oppressive laws it created against the Palestinians even though they have no say in it. Well done in twisting the facts to suit your propaganda as usual.
Click to expand...

Educate yourself on the Oslo accords and what they mean regarding who upholds the law in area C of the West Bank.
So who is twisting the facts to suit his propaganda here exactly and who on the other hand sticks to the facts and does not try and change the reality he does not and cannot accept?
Ignorance remains your major weapon here.
 
Apocalypse said:
Educate yourself on the Oslo accords and what they mean regarding who upholds the law in area C of the West Bank.
So who is twisting the facts to suit his propaganda here exactly and who on the other hand sticks to the facts and does not try and change the reality he does not and cannot accept?
Ignorance remains your major weapon here.
Click to expand...

The Oslo Accords are merely agreements and not laws at all- plus Isreal continually violates them whenever it feels like it, so keep twisting the facts because thats all you can do.
 
PoS said:
The Oslo Accords are merely agreements and not laws at all- plus Isreal continually violates them whenever it feels like it, so keep twisting the facts because thats all you can do.
Click to expand...

Who said they're "laws", exactly? Agreements are agreements and the two parties have agreed on an Israeli control over area C (And on PA control over areas A & B) so Israel is the one managing the building permits.
I don't think you yourself even realize whether you have a point here or not. You merely take an issue with reality, it seems. Are we done, or do you require my help on other issues as well?
 
Re: Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government
※→ Apocalypse, et al,

I am not talking about what the Israelis can legally do in Area "C" (Oslo Accord II - Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip). I don't think anyone is arguing the legality. I do not think that most rational people are focusing on the "revenge" aspect; although it appears to be showing a malice intent; at the very least, poor judgement. Having said that, the principle reason for the Israeli presence in the West Bank (absent a hidden political agenda on the significant extension of sovereignty) is to establish such a zone of defense that secures Israel against further Arab League incursions; as demonstrated in the past (a history of hostile and aggressive behaviors).

Apocalypse said:
Israel controls area C of the West Bank and thus building permits are required whenever anyone wishes to build anything there. Otherwise there is only anarchy.
Referring to it as an act of "revenge" or any other similarly silly suggestion is absurd.
Israel had just approved a plan to increase the size of a major Palestinian West Bank city, is that an act of "revenge" as well?
Israeli plan to double size of Qalqilya enrages settler leaders | The Times of Israel

So Israel doesn't act in vengeance. It merely upholds the rule of law.
As usual it is ignorance of the reality on the ground that is the major weapon of the immoral & backwards anti-Israeli agenda.
Click to expand...
(COMMENT)

What is legally permitted is not always the correct action to take. Just because Israel "can" do something, does not mean they should do something. Compliance to the "Rule of Law" does not mean that the legal implementation in a destructive, harmful manner, or in the apparent desire to inflict economic injury, to retard the bootstrap development of the people, intentionally doing harm, or suffering upon the Arab Palestinian IS NOT the action moral or just action to take.

I support the continued close support of the Israelis and the proper administration of the West Bank. But what I question is the level of competence demonstrated by the Israelis since the time of the Oslo Accord that creation Area "C" (1995). It does not matter how you define the West Bank, --- when the first consideration and primary responsibility should be the "Care and Protection" of the West Bank Palestinians.

Again, the Israel must act in its own best interest in the matter of protecting the sovereignty of the Jewish State; but is also has a responsibility to the the general population of the West Bank. Each time the Israelis act in the manner in which they did in the case of the couple dozens of solar panels donated by the Dutch Government to a small town --- is a remarkably pitiful example of benevolent leadership on the part of the Israeli administrators.

It is these examples of extremely poor judgement and improper administration that give the appearance Israel is becoming as bad (or worse) as the Arab League nations it defends against. Israel needs to clean this up.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
RoccoR said:
Re: Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government
※→ Apocalypse, et al,

I am not talking about what the Israelis can legally do in Area "C" (Oslo Accord II - Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip). I don't think anyone is arguing the legality. I do not think that most rational people are focusing on the "revenge" aspect; although it appears to be showing a malice intent; at the very least, poor judgement. Having said that, the principle reason for the Israeli presence in the West Bank (absent a hidden political agenda on the significant extension of sovereignty) is to establish such a zone of defense that secures Israel against further Arab League incursions; as demonstrated in the past (a history of hostile and aggressive behaviors).


(COMMENT)

What is legally permitted is not always the correct action to take. Just because Israel "can" do something, does not mean they should do something. Compliance to the "Rule of Law" does not mean that the legal implementation in a destructive, harmful manner, or in the apparent desire to inflict economic injury, to retard the bootstrap development of the people, intentionally doing harm, or suffering upon the Arab Palestinian IS NOT the action moral or just action to take.

I support the continued close support of the Israelis and the proper administration of the West Bank. But what I question is the level of competence demonstrated by the Israelis since the time of the Oslo Accord that creation Area "C" (1995). It does not matter how you define the West Bank, --- when the first consideration and primary responsibility should be the "Care and Protection" of the West Bank Palestinians.

Again, the Israel must act in its own best interest in the matter of protecting the sovereignty of the Jewish State; but is also has a responsibility to the the general population of the West Bank. Each time the Israelis act in the manner in which they did in the case of the couple dozens of solar panels donated by the Dutch Government to a small town --- is a remarkably pitiful example of benevolent leadership on the part of the Israeli administrators.

It is these examples of extremely poor judgement and improper administration that give the appearance Israel is becoming as bad (or worse) as the Arab League nations it defends against. Israel needs to clean this up.

Most Respectfully,
R
Click to expand...

It's called bureaucracy. They built without a permit; it does not matter what they were building there and it might as well have been an orphanage for that point - the moment they build without a permit the authorities intervene and the same is true for literally every place in this world. Try building an orphanage in your town just like that with no permit and see if anyone is going to stop you from doing it.

I understand however where you're coming from, you think the authorities there should have ignored the fact that it was built without a permit seeing that it has an economic benefit for the locals.
Hence why I repeat, it's called bureaucracy, the authorities first of all act by the law and later on decide what to do based on logical thinking.
Neither you nor me actually know what happened after the property was seized by the authorities who were just doing their job. We don't know if a permit is to be granted and can't truly discuss that.

We can compare the situation to someone who is driving above the speed limit and getting fined for it, later appealing against it claiming that he was driving his pregnant wife to the hospital.
 
PeteEU said:
Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government | The Independent



Okay.. but



Why is that?

Is it only the west bank?

Only 7% of Jerusalem building permits go to Palestinian neighborhoods - Israel News - Haaretz.com



Sure smells like something other "problematic" countries have done in history.
Click to expand...

Ah the Dutch. They see an impoverished people and they send the solar panels. Word has it they will be sending basketballs to impoverished tribes of Africa
 
Re: Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government
※→ Apocalypse, et al,

Application of law requires common sense.
Apocalypse said:
It's called bureaucracy.
Click to expand...
(COMMENT)

Government Officials (the Israelis) owing a duty to the constituency (the Arab Palestinians under their care and oversight): These responsibilities must be discharged with such integrity for the good of the people, as to assure that the Israelis are operating with such honor as to cast no doubt in the confidence of the Administration by the foreign power. I submit that this has lead to the general appearance and belief that the Israelis are not operating in the best interest of the people they are charged to protect; the conduct that reasonably appears to violate the protection requirements [the appearance of impropriety targeted against a population and territory (Area "C" or not) which is not sovereign to Israel]; which raise ethics questions.

We know that the general rule of law, under a belligerent occupation, regarding private property, Hague and Geneva law put very strict limits on its seizure and destruction: Hague Article 46 contains an outright ban on confiscation and Article 53 of the Fourth Geneva Convention limits destruction to that “absolutely necessary by private military operations.” And again, I would defend the Israeli action IF and only IF (IFF) a reasonable security matter is presented warranting this destructive intervention, as opposed to a decision based on an actual compelling reason, "absolutely necessary" for confiscation and destruction.

Family honors and rights, individual lives and private property, as well as religious convictions and liberty, must be respected.
​
Private property cannot be confiscated.

​
• Article 53, Fourth Geneva Convention 1949
​
Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.
​


In order to dissipate any misconception in regard to the scope of Article 53, it must be pointed out that the property referred to is not accorded general protection; the Convention merely provides here for its protection in occupied territory. The scope of the Article is therefore limited to destruction resulting from action by the Occupying Power. It will be remembered that Article 23 (g) [ Link ] of the Hague Regulations forbids the unnecessary destruction of enemy property; since that rule is placed in the section entitled "hostilities", it covers all property in the territory involved in a war; its scope is therefore much wider than that of the provision under discussion, which is only concerned with property situated in occupied territory.
​

It is cases such as this, that present a global picture of Israel pathology, impropriety and destructive nature. Israel doesn't need anymore demonstrations that give the appearance of abrogating their responsibility. In fact, the Israelis should be doing the exact opposite. At some point, the Israelis will have to become a benevolent influence in the eyes of the world and the Arab Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R
​
 
RoccoR said:
Application of law requires common sense.
Click to expand...

This is where you're wrong clearly.
See the example I've given in my previous comment about going above the speed limit and getting fined for it.
You'll always get fined, whether you have a good reason or no reason at all.
 
PeteEU said:
Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government | The Independent



Okay.. but



Why is that?

Is it only the west bank?

Only 7% of Jerusalem building permits go to Palestinian neighborhoods - Israel News - Haaretz.com

Sure smells like something other "problematic" countries have done in history.
Click to expand...

Why was this huge humanitarian project not properly vetted ? Did the Dutch Govt not do its job correctly ?
Regardless, does sound like a dick move. With these kinds of actions, it's hard to look at the Israelian government in a positive light. It's pretty clear Israel officials despise Palestine & will not agree to a 2 state solution. At least not now.
 
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