• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Israel's Goodwill Gestures Send Wrong Messages [W:99]

CJ 2.0

CJ 2.0

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
5,418
Reaction score
1,903
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Couldn't agree more. The more Israel makes concessions and gestures in the face of unrelenting hostility and lies about intentions and actions on the Palestinian side, the worse the prospects for actually reconciling this conflict. Carrots don't work, only sticks. The international community needs to understand this if there is to be any hope of one day ending the conflict.

[h=1]Palestinians: Israel's Goodwill Gestures Send Wrong Messages[/h]

snips:

Here is what is being said on the Palestinian street: Today Israel runs away from the West Bank or the Gaza Strip; tomorrow Israel will run away from Ashkelon, then from Tel Aviv and from there to the sea, and we have achieved our goal of destroying Israel. Therefore, we need to continue attacking Israel.

As with the Gaza Strip, the withdrawal from Lebanon taught the Palestinians that terrorism could drive Israelis out of their country.

Never have the Palestinians given Israel credit for its goodwill steps. On the contrary, they scoff at these moves and describe them as "cosmetic changes". The Palestinian line is that Israel's steps are "insufficient" and "unhelpful." Its concessions are regarded as gestures of a terrified people and as the rightful reward for terrorism. Far from satiating the appetite of the terrorists, such steps prompt them to step up their attacks against Israelis.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10464/israel-goodwill-gestures
 
CJ 2.0 said:
Couldn't agree more. The more Israel makes concessions and gestures in the face of unrelenting hostility and lies about intentions and actions on the Palestinian side, the worse the prospects for actually reconciling this conflict. Carrots don't work, only sticks. The international community needs to understand this if there is to be any hope of one day ending the conflict.

[h=1]Palestinians: Israel's Goodwill Gestures Send Wrong Messages[/h]

snips:

Here is what is being said on the Palestinian street: Today Israel runs away from the West Bank or the Gaza Strip; tomorrow Israel will run away from Ashkelon, then from Tel Aviv and from there to the sea, and we have achieved our goal of destroying Israel. Therefore, we need to continue attacking Israel.

As with the Gaza Strip, the withdrawal from Lebanon taught the Palestinians that terrorism could drive Israelis out of their country.

Never have the Palestinians given Israel credit for its goodwill steps. On the contrary, they scoff at these moves and describe them as "cosmetic changes". The Palestinian line is that Israel's steps are "insufficient" and "unhelpful." Its concessions are regarded as gestures of a terrified people and as the rightful reward for terrorism. Far from satiating the appetite of the terrorists, such steps prompt them to step up their attacks against Israelis.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10464/israel-goodwill-gestures
Click to expand...

Whenever it seemed close to a peace, the heavies of the Hamas send in some rockets or children with bomb-belts.
 
Considering Israel doesn't recognize Palestine's right to exist, wants to see their people and culture destroyed, and continues to illegally steal Palestinian land, this really is too little too late. If they'd actually show some legitimate good will and would honor the agreement that gave them Israel in the first place, peace just might be possible.

Israel does not want a two-state solution, only domination, and they are still flooding Palestinian land with government backed settlers.

joG said:
Whenever it seemed close to a peace, the heavies of the Hamas send in some rockets or children with bomb-belts.
Click to expand...

Terrorism is never justified, but extremism is the natural reaction for people with no hope feeling the walls literally close in around them. The vast majority of Palestinians are not part of Hamas and they do not speak for them as a people or a nation.
 
Last edited:
RabidAlpaca said:
Considering Israel doesn't recognize Palestine's right to exist, wants to see their people and culture destroyed, and continues to illegally steal Palestinian land, this really is too little too late. If they'd actually show some legitimate good will and would honor the agreement that gave them Israel in the first place, peace just might be possible.

Israel does not want a two-state solution, only domination, and they are still flooding Palestinian land with government backed settlers.



Terrorism is never justified, but extremism is the natural reaction for people with no hope feeling the walls literally close in around them. The vast majority of Palestinians are not part of Hamas and they do not speak for them as a people or a nation.
Click to expand...

Not only is terrorism not justified it's also never natural, if it would have been natural it wouldn't be a small minority who engage in it. It's the result of brainwashing and incitement from the surrounding of the radicalized individual.

That being settled, the rest of your comment is of course nonsensical accusations based on nothing but the lies of the anti-Israeli propaganda machine. Israel "wants to see the Palestinian people destroyed"? Destroyed? For real? Their culture? What? Messed up nonsense that shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone and is based only on the pure hatred for Israel and the Israeli people.
 
Apocalypse said:
Not only is terrorism not justified it's also never natural, if it would have been natural it wouldn't be a small minority who engage in it. It's the result of brainwashing and incitement from the surrounding of the radicalized individual.

That being settled, the rest of your comment is of course nonsensical accusations based on nothing but the lies of the anti-Israeli propaganda machine. Israel "wants to see the Palestinian people destroyed"? Destroyed? For real? Their culture? What? Messed up nonsense that shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone and is based only on the pure hatred for Israel and the Israeli people.
Click to expand...

Yes, literally destroy their culture. You do not see their right to exist and you continue to gobble up their land illegally piece by piece.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Yes, literally destroy their culture. You do not see their right to exist and you continue to gobble up their land illegally piece by piece.
Click to expand...

Separate their right to a nation from their very right to exist as human beings. When you're making such accusations you simply expose, again, that it's nonsensical anti-Israeli drivel based on hatred for Israeli people and nothing else.
 
Apocalypse said:
Separate their right to a nation from their very right to exist as human beings. When you're making such accusations you simply expose, again, that it's nonsensical anti-Israeli drivel based on hatred for Israeli people and nothing else.
Click to expand...

Exactly, the Israeli way: "If those bitches want to live they better do it under our country because theirs is gone." *Nom Nom Nom* You won't incorporate all of them into your country because then you'd have a muslim majority in a democracy.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
Couldn't agree more. The more Israel makes concessions and gestures in the face of unrelenting hostility and lies about intentions and actions on the Palestinian side, the worse the prospects for actually reconciling this conflict. Carrots don't work, only sticks. The international community needs to understand this if there is to be any hope of one day ending the conflict.

[h=1]Palestinians: Israel's Goodwill Gestures Send Wrong Messages[/h]

snips:

Here is what is being said on the Palestinian street: Today Israel runs away from the West Bank or the Gaza Strip; tomorrow Israel will run away from Ashkelon, then from Tel Aviv and from there to the sea, and we have achieved our goal of destroying Israel. Therefore, we need to continue attacking Israel.

As with the Gaza Strip, the withdrawal from Lebanon taught the Palestinians that terrorism could drive Israelis out of their country.

Never have the Palestinians given Israel credit for its goodwill steps. On the contrary, they scoff at these moves and describe them as "cosmetic changes". The Palestinian line is that Israel's steps are "insufficient" and "unhelpful." Its concessions are regarded as gestures of a terrified people and as the rightful reward for terrorism. Far from satiating the appetite of the terrorists, such steps prompt them to step up their attacks against Israelis.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10464/israel-goodwill-gestures
Click to expand...

Those animals only understand violence, not kindness, right?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Exactly, the Israeli way: "If those bitches want to live they better do it under our country because theirs is gone." *Nom Nom Nom*
Click to expand...

Great demonization of a people you seem to know nothing of.

Anyway, Israelis don't want to annex the WB (hence why it didn't happen in the 50 years it's been occupied) and would agree to a two states solution if it doesn't compromise their security and threatens their everyday lives.
So far the Palestinians have been the ones who were sabotaging every attempt to reach peace and not the other way around, the last time being in 2014.
 
Apocalypse said:
Great demonization of a people you seem to know nothing of.
Anyway, Israelis don't want to annex the WB (hence why it didn't happen in the 50 years it's been occupied) and would agree to a two states solution if it doesn't compromise their security and threatens their everyday lives.
So far the Palestinians have been the oens who were sabotaging every attempt to reach peace and not the other way around, the last time being in 2014.
Click to expand...

And yet you are continuing to annex piece after piece of the west bank and other Palestinian territories by flooding them with settlers. It's like someone who moves into a neighborhood and starts stealing land piece by piece from his neighbors then is completely baffled when they don't want to let bygones be bygones.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
And yet you are continuing to annex piece after piece of the west bank and other Palestinian territories by flooding them with settlers. It's like someone who moves into a neighborhood and starts stealing land piece by piece from his neighbors then is completely baffled when they don't want to let bygones be bygones.
Click to expand...

You use the word 'annex' instead of occupy. Israel is occupying the WB, not annexing it. Annexing it would be making it a de facto part of the state no different than Tel Aviv, Haifa and Jeursalem. That has not happened and probably won't happen as well. The settlers live in their own communities that, with the exception of Amona that's been evacuated, were not built on private Palestinian-owned lands. The fate of the settlements will be decided in a peace deal and not outside of it. Israel doesn't steal 'their' land as it isn't 'their' land, they don't own it. It's land that they as a people want for a future state. Huge difference.

You said earlier Israel should have honored the UN partition plan from '48, Israel has indeed honored it and it was rejected by the Arabs, it's quite irrelevant in modern times though as Israel is not going back to the '48 borders.
 
Apocalypse said:
You use the word 'annex' instead of occupy. Israel is occupying the WB, not annexing it. Annexing it would be making it a de facto part of the state no different than Tel Aviv, Haifa and Jeursalem. That has not happened and probably won't happen as well. The settlers live in their own communities that, with the exception of Amona that's been evacuated, were not built on private Palestinian-owned lands. The fate of the settlements will be decided in a peace deal and not outside of it. Israel doesn't steal 'their' land as it isn't 'their' land, they don't own it. It's land that they as a people want for a future state. Huge difference.

You said earlier Israel should have honored the UN partition plan from '48, Israel has indeed honored it and it was rejected by the Arabs, it's quite irrelevant in modern times though as Israel is not going back to the '48 borders.
Click to expand...

You are annexing it by intentionally sending in settlers to steal land owned by real people, not just some magic "nobody's land" you envision in your head. Over the decades you've grabbed every piece you can get your fingers on and the Palestinian state is a fraction of what it once was. You do not have ancestral rights to land, that is complete nonsense. I can't go over to Scottland because I have Scottish heritage and just start claiming people's land as an ancestral or religious right.

You're taking land from real people and you don't care because your ethnocentric nation continues to grow. Why would anyone agree to your demands when you won't even stop chewing long enough to make them?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
You are annexing it by intentionally sending in settlers to steal land owned by real people, not just some magic "nobody's land" you envision in your head. Over the decades you've grabbed every piece you can get your fingers on and the Palestinian state is a fraction of what it once was. You do not have ancestral rights to land, that is complete nonsense. I can't go over to Scottland because I have Scottish heritage and just start claiming people's land as an ancestral or religious right. You're taking land from real people and you don't care because your ethnocentric nation continues to grow.
Click to expand...

But that's false, it's not owned by a real people.
There aren't Palestinians who own the lands on which Ariel was created or Ma'ale Adumim for that point.
So you base your claims on false information that you aren't aware is false, just like your claim that the Palestinian "state" (what state?) is a fraction of what it was. It never was.
The Partition plan didn't establish a Palestinian state because the Arabs have rejected it and attempted to destroy the Jewish one - fact. So there was no state and now there is no "fraction of what was a state".
Scotland is an actual state, going to where there is a state and establishing a state over it and its people is wrong, that's not the case here obviously even if you insist otherwise disregarding history and reality.
 
Apocalypse said:
But that's false, it's not owned by a real people.
There aren't Palestinians who own the lands on which Ariel was created or Ma'ale Adumim for that point.
So you base your claims on false information that you aren't aware is false, just like your claim that the Palestinian "state" (what state?) is a fraction of what it was. It never was.
The Partition plan didn't establish a Palestinian state because the Arabs have rejected it and attempted to destroy the Jewish one - fact. So there was no state and now there is no "fraction of what was a state".
Scotland is an actual state, going to where there is a state and establishing a state over it and its people is wrong, that's not the case here obviously even if you insist otherwise disregarding history and reality.
Click to expand...

Then we're back to my original point. You don't see their right to exist, so you deem all of their land as "unclaimed" that you can scoop up for yourselves. 193 countries in the world recognize Palestine, but because you want their land for yourself you just magically declare it a non-state and start gobbling away. Absolutely disgusting and there will never be peace until you're ready to coexist.
 
Last edited:
RabidAlpaca said:
Then we're back to my original point. You don't see their right to exist, so you deem all of their land as "unclaimed" that you can scoop up for yourselves. 193 countries in the world recognize Palestine, but because you want their land for yourself you just magically declare it a non-state and start gobbling away. Absolutely disgusting and there will never be peace until you're ready to coexist.
Click to expand...

But as I said your point is based on ignorance and false information you've been exposed to.
It's not their land. There's nothing that makes it theirs. It's land they want to establish a state on, but it's never been theirs, the Palestinian-Arabs have not had a nation of their own in the occupied territory through the last 2,000 years it's been occupied, not under British control not under Ottoman control and not before it. If you believe otherwise explain why, but do something other than throwing baseless accusations and assertions. The lands on which these settlements were formed with the exception I noted above were not owned by private Palestinian individuals either, so you're wrong in both cases.

Recognition is virtual and doesn't mean anything and it's 136 not 193. If Poland recognizes a state of Palestine within a territory in the US tomorrow it wouldn't make it a real state, they'd have no control over such territory. The borders of such state are to be decided on the negotiations table, not anywhere else. Until such state is formed through this conclusive and final peace agreement there is no two-states solution and there is no Palestinian state.

What's really disgusting here is ignorance and that's the single basis for all of your statements here so far, to be honest.
 
Apocalypse said:
But as I said your point is based on ignorance and false information you've been exposed to.
It's not their land. There's nothing that makes it theirs. It's land they want to establish a state on, but it's never been theirs, the Palestinian-Arabs have not had a nation of their own in the occupied territory through the last 2,000 years it's been occupied, not under British control not under Ottoman control and not before it. If you believe otherwise explain why, but do something other than throwing baseless accusations and assertions. The lands on which these settlements were formed with the exception I noted above were not owned by private Palestinian individuals either, so you're wrong in both cases.

Recognition is virtual and doesn't mean anything and it's 136 not 193. If Poland recognizes a state of Palestine within a territory in the US tomorrow it wouldn't make it a real state, they'd have no control over such territory. The borders of such state are to be decided on the negotiations table, not anywhere else. Until such state is formed through this conclusive and final peace agreement there is no two-states solution and there is no Palestinian state.

What's really disgusting here is ignorance and that's the single basis for all of your statements here so far, to be honest.
Click to expand...

193 countries recognize Palestine as a fellow country. You subjectively declared them not a country so you can sleep better at night illegally stealing their land. Keep gobbling.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
193 countries recognize Palestine as a fellow country. You subjectively declared them not a country so you can sleep better at night illegally stealing their land. Keep gobbling.
Click to expand...

136 members of the UN recognize a state of Palestine. Mostly non-Western anti-Israeli countries. Two more non-UN entities. That's entirely virtual and that's not what makes a state, otherwise states would come to exist all over the world every day, that's just stupid. A sovereign state has control over the territory it claims to belong to it for once.

Now you're resorting to personal attacks, I'm very sorry that confronting your baseless accusations with actual facts had sabotaged your demonization of Israelis.
 
Apocalypse said:
136 members of the UN recognize a state of Palestine. Mostly non-Western anti-Israeli countries. Two more non-UN entities. That's entirely virtual and that's not what makes a state, otherwise states would come to exist all over the world every day, that's just stupid. A sovereign state has control over the territory it claims to belong to it for once.

Now you're resorting to personal attacks, I'm very sorry that confronting your baseless accusations with actual facts had sabotaged your demonization of Israelis.
Click to expand...

Well, it's like you said, "might makes right", you subjectively declare them not a country, steal their land, then even refuse to let them join your own nation because that would leave you as a voting minority (assuming those who'd even want to). The vast majority of the countries on earth are not all anti-Jew, that's just your persecution complex cropping up because you refuse to recognize the right to exist of people you see as your enemy.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Well, it's like you said, "might makes right", you subjectively declare them not a country, steal their land, then even refuse to let them join your own nation because that would leave you as a voting minority. The vast majority of the countries on earth are not all anti-Jew, that's just your persecution complex cropping up because you refuse to recognize the right to exist of people you see as your enemy.
Click to expand...

The majority of states in the world are indeed what you call "anti-Jew", claiming it's a "persecution complex" is ridiculously antisemitic and racist (Never has anything bad happened to a Jew in this world, right? "Persuection complex", pffff, how rich. Pick up an history book.) but mostly ignorant of the stated positions, actions and public opinions within those nations.

Nowhere am I saying that might makes right, I fully believe Israel holds the moral high ground and held it when it was the underdog as well as when it isn't now, the Palestinian-Arabs have rejected the partition plan along with their Arab allies and attacked Israel instead of forming a state of their own, so no state was formed. You don't "subjectively declare them not to be a country" if they never were a country. You can however subjectively declare them to be a country when they aren't, and that's as I said just virtual and meaningless. They will have a country hopefully when they'll reach a peace agreement, that has not happened as of current time.
 
RE: Israel's Goodwill Gestures Send Wrong Messages
※→ et al,

I seriously do not understand what the excitement is all about.

• The Six June 5–10, 1967 War is the marker. HAMAS said it would accept the "borders" (I like that) that were in effect in 4 June 67 (AKA: Pre-War Lines). Again, this is an illusion.
• You will also notice that HAMAS will not recognize Israel. The Green Line or (pre-)1967 border or 1949 Armistice Lines were not borders. They were demarcations.
• On 4 June 1967, there was no government for the State of Palestine --- that did not happen until November 1988.
​

There is nothing of new substance that this latest announcement makes.

If President Trump thinks for one second that these announcements bring peace closure together, then he is just fooling himself.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
RabidAlpaca said:
193 countries recognize Palestine as a fellow country. You subjectively declared them not a country so you can sleep better at night illegally stealing their land. Keep gobbling.
Click to expand...
The UN decision has no practical consequences.
I dont know how you can declar real country - not a country, but anyway there weren't palestinian country in the first place.
And Israel isn't stealing land because as you refused to acknowledge there weren't palestinian country.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Considering Israel doesn't recognize Palestine's right to exist, wants to see their people and culture destroyed.....
Click to expand...
Really no reason to read beyond this blatantly anti-Semitic lie.
 
countryboy said:
Really no reason to read beyond this blatantly anti-Semitic lie.
Click to expand...

Really? So Israel recognizes Palestine as a country?

NO1 said:
The UN decision has no practical consequences.
I dont know how you can declar real country - not a country, but anyway there weren't palestinian country in the first place.
And Israel isn't stealing land because as you refused to acknowledge there weren't palestinian country.
Click to expand...

That's been exactly the Israeli position. Declare them as nationless nomads so that they can justify to themselves taking their land and pretending it's their religious birth right. They refuse to coexist with the Palestinians and don't recognize their right to exist.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
That's been exactly the Israeli position. Declare them as nationless nomads so that they can justify to themselves taking their land and pretending it's their religious birth right.
Click to expand...
Israel didn't declar Palestine not a country and won't do that, it will be unnecessary because the history shows that, there weren't was a country named Palestine. There was an attempt to create such country in 1948 but the Arabs dismissed that offer.

They refuse to coexist with the Palestinians and don't recognize their right to exist.
Click to expand...
Wrong.
The Arabs are those who refusing to accept the idea of Jewish presence in the ME throughout the history of the conflict, since Hebron massacre in 1929, rejection of Peel Commission 1937, rejection of Partition Plan 1948 and so on, until to these days.
 
NO1 said:
Israel didn't declar Palestine not a country and won't do that, it will be unnecessary because the history shows that, there weren't was a country named Palestine. There was an attempt to create such country in 1948 but the Arabs dismissed that offer.
Wrong.
The Arabs are those who refusing to accept the idea of Jewish presence in the ME throughout the history of the conflict, since Hebron massacre in 1929, rejection of Peel Commission 1937, rejection of Partition Plan 1948 and so on, until to these days.
Click to expand...

If you ask Palestinians or the 95% of the world's countries that recognize them, yes they did form a country. It's simply pretending they're nationless nomads floating on uninhabited land to make yourself feel better. The Israelis and religious Americans simply choose to ignore their sovereignty because they desire to see a large Israeli state. If you take the religious nuttery out of it you see two ethnic populations fighting over the same land that need to learn to coexist.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom