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Israel's Goodwill Gestures Send Wrong Messages [W:99]

Might as well claim that I called for the annihilation of Australia while you're at it. :lol:
Pathetic.

If any of these folks on DP could spend a month in Israel, they might understand things better from street level.

95% of the folks here on DP don't realize that the many working Jew and Palestinian actually shop in many of the same stores, work in the same buildings, and even have lunch together. 45-50 thousand Palestinians cross the line everyday and get along with the Jews just fine.

There is no doubt in my mind that BiBi would be more than happy to work with the PNA if Hamas were out of the picture.
 
That's the position of the US. Are they Nazis too? And Germany, modern Germany, are Nazis too? Spain? France? Italy?
It's a given fact and part of reality that they have no state as to current time. I'm a supporter of the two-states solution, has been here for more than 8 years and always did support it, but because I don't take your alt-facts as truth and because I confront you with the actual facts - with the truth - that makes me a Nazi? Because I'm Jewish and you feel like calling some Jews Nazis? Great stuff.

You said my position is; "You don't want them in your country and you don't want them forming their own country, you just want them to leave or die as you creep the cage you've built for them further and further inwards."

Not believing there is currently a Palestinian state (fact) does not fit the above. Show us then what you're referring to that does fit the above.
Prediction: You won't. Your immoral agenda and opinion on Israel and Jews doesn't allow you to. It's stronger.

Wanting two childish tribes to coexist in peace instead of blowing each other to smithereens is an immoral agenda. If only I could support a "moral" agenda like yours where the Jews get everything and the Palestinians can just **** off. The US support for Israel is purely religious based on the same intolerant zionists who think the US is a christian nation where muslims aren't welcome. I come from a family and community that literally believes when the Jews re-conquer all of Israel and rebuild the temples the End-Times will be ushered in, which they are giddily looking forward to. That's the kind of religious nuttery we're dealing with.

You want their land for yourself so you've tried to delegitimize their nation as a negotation tactic. It's disgusting and you need to learn to coexist. I don't have any more right to land in Scottland than you do in Israel just because of who our great great great great great great grandaddies were. Try putting being a decent human being over your race and you won't have any similarities to nazis.
 
Moderator's Warning:
After REPEATED violations of ME ML in this thread, several posters have been infracted, and quite a few have been removed from the thread. Anyone else causes a problem, you can guarantee consequences. And, in case I missed something, post before this may still be subject to action.
 
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Wanting two childish tribes to coexist in peace instead of blowing each other to smithereens is an immoral agenda.

That's not the immoral agenda. The immoral agenda is made in reference to the comparison between Israeli Jews and the Nazis.
This isn't merely a very bad comparison that has nothing to do with reality, it's a deliberate attempt to specifically portray the victims as no different than those who butchered them by the millions for belonging to a specific ethnicity/religion.

If only I could support a "moral" agenda like yours where the Jews get everything and the Palestinians can just **** off.

Another strawman argument. Best you can do? Make up stuff?

The US support for Israel is purely religious based on the same intolerant zionists who think the US is a christian nation where muslims aren't welcome. I come from a family and community that literally believes when the Jews re-conquer all of Israel and rebuild the temples the End-Times will be ushered in, which they are giddily looking forward to. That's the kind of religious nuttery we're dealing with.

Has nothing to do with the conflict or what's being discussed, and also far from accurate considering the fact that the majority of Americans aren't like your family. (Not that there's anything wrong with any belief whatsoever)

You want their land for yourself so you've tried to delegitimize their nation as a negotation tactic. It's disgusting and you need to learn to coexist. I don't have any more right to land in Scottland than you do in Israel just because of who our great great great great great great grandaddies were.

Again another strawman argument, a recycled one, and a recycled false assertion based on ignorance.
Also, there has been a Jewish community in Israel for the last 3,000 years. Always. Before the Arab conquerors came, before the British, before the Ottomans, before the Romans.
Get the facts right instead of embracing ignorance.
 
Wanting two childish tribes to coexist in peace instead of blowing each other to smithereens is an immoral agenda. If only I could support a "moral" agenda like yours where the Jews get everything and the Palestinians can just **** off. The US support for Israel is purely religious based on the same intolerant zionists who think the US is a christian nation where muslims aren't welcome. I come from a family and community that literally believes when the Jews re-conquer all of Israel and rebuild the temples the End-Times will be ushered in, which they are giddily looking forward to. That's the kind of religious nuttery we're dealing with.

You want their land for yourself so you've tried to delegitimize their nation as a negotation tactic. It's disgusting and you need to learn to coexist. I don't have any more right to land in Scottland than you do in Israel just because of who our great great great great great great grandaddies were.

OMG.......You really are over the edge.

And, you don't have a clue as far as the Arab world's interference.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6142/palestinians-peace-israel
 

Did I deny anything here? I am quite aware of Hama's beginnings.

You fight 18 nations at a time directly or through proxy, and get back to me with with how many deals you end up cutting.

What was the original intent of Massad and Hamas with the PLO? ? ?
 
The other side of the conflict which you seem to want to ignore is that the Israelis refuse to recognize the Palestinians right to exist. You, along with Apocalypse, an alleged Israeli, claim they're nationless nomands and that their land is for anyone who cares to take it with force. Gee, I wonder why they're mad.
Nice dodging.
You can't back up your lies so your repeating your baseless mantra, it's like Im debating with an 6 years old.
So poor debating approach.
 
You are wasting your time.

These people seem to see the Palestinians as scum, subhuman vermin. Their hatred of these poor people is truly disgusting.

It is interesting how the longer this tragedy (from the Palestinians side) continues, the more and more Israeli leaders (and the Palestinian haters who support them) sound more and more like the Thousand Year Reich their forefathers fled from way back when.
Lies over lies.
I don't hate Palestinians at all, just another poor attempt to demonize Israelis.
Im pretty sure spent much more time with Arabs than 95 % of people in this forum, I know their culture and I speak a little bit Arabic, so of course you can keep going on with your demonizing BS.


It won't be long before extremist Israeli's are calling for a Final Solution to the Palestinian problem, I fear.


You are doing a good job RabidAlpaca...keep fighting the good fight.
Again, another attempt to demonize Israelis.
It's remind me that - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/23/manchester-attack-police-investigate-katie-hopkins-final-solution-tweet
 
Re: Israel's Goodwill Gestures Send Wrong Messages
※⇒ RetiredUSN; PoS; et al;

This is such old (really old news about news, and while it sound right; the implications are anything but correct.


Banks in the Gaza Strip are monitored by Israel and the US, and every single money transfer sent to Gaza -- whether for individuals or organizations -- is monitored by Israel. These transfer service outage benefit the constituency of the Gaza Strip. Periodically, the transfer limitations and protocols have to be adjusted for physical security reasons and prevent money laundering at money exchanges.



Did I deny anything here? I am quite aware of Hama's beginnings.

You fight 18 nations at a time directly or through proxy, and get back to me with with how many deals you end up cutting.

What was the original intent of Massad and Hamas with the PLO? ? ?
(COMMENT) --- The clipping of the thumbnail comment on the topic.

In addition to the transfer of frozen assets to the Ramallah Government, the transfer of Tax Revenues (so far more than a $100M) from the system managed by the Israelis; this is accomplished on a routine cycle.

In the Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area (AGSJA) the origins of the transfer of all powers and responsibilities to the Palestinian Authority, as detailed in Annex II, includes all related rights, liabilities and obligations arising with regard to acts or omissions which occurred prior to the transfer. Israel will cease to bear any financial responsibility regarding such acts or omissions and the Palestinian Authority will bear all financial responsibility for these and for its own functioning. (See Annex III -- PROTOCOL CONCERNING LEGAL MATTERS -- Article IV -- MONETARY AND FINANCIAL ISSUES.

In addition to normal functional areas of Government, the Palestinian Monetary Authority (PMA) has oversight of the Bank of Palestine and the Arab Bank of Gaza; where more of the fund is disbursed. Now, I will admit that it is well known that various bleeders -- Tax Revenue “accounts are not under the supervision of the general PA Treasury Ministry.” No system is prefect.

Just like many of the tribes within the Mujahedin were once allied supported activities, the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) can flip, and has flipped. But for all practical purposes, HAMAS is the de facto government in the Gaza Strip; both in the open and sub rosa form.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Re: Israel's Goodwill Gestures Send Wrong Messages
※⇒ RetiredUSN; PoS; et al;

This is such old (really old news about news, and while it sound right; the implications are anything but correct.


Banks in the Gaza Strip are monitored by Israel and the US, and every single money transfer sent to Gaza -- whether for individuals or organizations -- is monitored by Israel. These transfer service outage benefit the constituency of the Gaza Strip. Periodically, the transfer limitations and protocols have to be adjusted for physical security reasons and prevent money laundering at money exchanges.


(COMMENT) --- The clipping of the thumbnail comment on the topic.

In addition to the transfer of frozen assets to the Ramallah Government, the transfer of Tax Revenues (so far more than a $100M) from the system managed by the Israelis; this is accomplished on a routine cycle.

In the Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area (AGSJA) the origins of the transfer of all powers and responsibilities to the Palestinian Authority, as detailed in Annex II, includes all related rights, liabilities and obligations arising with regard to acts or omissions which occurred prior to the transfer. Israel will cease to bear any financial responsibility regarding such acts or omissions and the Palestinian Authority will bear all financial responsibility for these and for its own functioning. (See Annex III -- PROTOCOL CONCERNING LEGAL MATTERS -- Article IV -- MONETARY AND FINANCIAL ISSUES.

In addition to normal functional areas of Government, the Palestinian Monetary Authority (PMA) has oversight of the Bank of Palestine and the Arab Bank of Gaza; where more of the fund is disbursed. Now, I will admit that it is well known that various bleeders -- Tax Revenue “accounts are not under the supervision of the general PA Treasury Ministry.” No system is prefect.

Just like many of the tribes within the Mujahedin were once allied supported activities, the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) can flip, and has flipped. But for all practical purposes, HAMAS is the de facto government in the Gaza Strip; both in the open and sub rosa form.

Most Respectfully,
R

Hamas is a terrorist group. Calling them a government is today world is a joke.
 
Re: Israel's Goodwill Gestures Send Wrong Messages
※→ RetiredUSN; et al,

Yes. First let me say that I am not defending or a supporter of terrorism. In fact, I was involved in counterterrorism long before The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) was placed on the Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs).

Second, (From the Popular TV Show: NCIS -- Gibb Rule #51: Sometimes You're wrong.) not every collective opinion of the US is correct.

Re: Israel's Goodwill Gestures Send Wrong Messages
※⇒ RetiredUSN; PoS; et al;

This is such old (really old news about news, and while it sound right; the implications are anything but correct.

Banks in the Gaza Strip are monitored by Israel and the US, and every single money transfer sent to Gaza -- whether for individuals or organizations -- is monitored by Israel. These transfer service outage benefit the constituency of the Gaza Strip. Periodically, the transfer limitations and protocols have to be adjusted for physical security reasons and prevent money laundering at money exchanges.

Hamas is a terrorist group. Calling them a government is today world is a joke.
(OBSERVATION)

The US FTO List was assembled by members of the government (coming up on) two decades ago; in a time when known terrorist groups and personalities were NOT targeted for specific extraterritorial focus. Rarely did the US (any agency) go after organizations, activities or personalities engaged in terrorism it located outside the jurisdiction of the US. For nearly three decades, between 1970 and 1997 (when HAMAS was declared a terrorist organization) the US did not engage terrorist if outside the US; yet terrorist had been engaging US Citizens on a regular basis the entire period. It was in 1978 (two decade before any PLO activity or personality was declared a terrorist) that Gail Rubin, niece to Senator Abraham Ribicoff, was among those killed on an Israeli beach by Dalal Mughrabi, a Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO -- Fatah) terrorists. Mughrabi was declared a hero and role model for the Palestinians by Sabri Saidam, Deputy Secretary of the Fatah Revolutionary Council and Advisor to President (Mahmoud Abbas) in 2011.

The application of the term "terrorist or terrorism" is political; because the purpose of the act is to spread coersion and to press intimidasion. It is a term that can be turned on/off. Example: In December 2014 the European Union Court of Justice annulled HAMAS as a designated terrorist organization, and ordered it removed from the EU List of Terrorist. Although unspoken, the action of the Court of Justice was a politically motivated action to negate a serious portion of the Israeli justification and defense --- an EU form of punishment at a time when the mainstream news media cycle on anti-Israeli Rhetoric was at its height. Although the decision by the Court of Justice did not stand long, it was very successful as a political snowball at the time.

(COMMENT)

Of course, you are correct that HAMAS is a quasi-State Sponsor of Terrorism. Not because of a US or EU generated List of FTO's, but because of the actions they commit and the various political positions they have held. They are terrorist because of what they do, and not because of who they are. HAMAS has commited acts of premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets.

HAMAS is currently a complex non-entity that is evolving toward → a binary entity --- one political and one militant [An Evolved Examples: (The Likud {The Consolidation} ⇔ Irgun {National Military Organization}) --- (Sinn Féin - Irish Republican Political Party ⇔ Provisional Irish Republican Army). HAMAS (political) is not completely in control of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades (militant) ( BTW - that is the named after the Palestinian Black Hand). HAMAS is, for all intent and purpose, the government of the Gaza Strip. Yet, the PLO is technically the Government of Palestine, of which Gaza belongs. Having said that, HAMAS has been in violation of the 1947 UN Resolution "Measures tob be Taken against Propaganda and the Inciters of a New War" (A/RES/2/110) for three dacades.

Well, that is much more than I originally intended to say. I hope I did not bore you.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Those animals only understand violence, not kindness, right?

"[The author] is a Muslim based in the Middle East."

Sometimes you need to recognize the world as it exists instead of pretending it is as you would want it to be.

Culturally, concessions are viewed as weakness to take advantage of, not demonstrations of good faith to be reciprocated. We've seen that play out in practice time and time again.
 
"[The author] is a Muslim based in the Middle East."

Sometimes you need to recognize the world as it exists instead of pretending it is as you would want it to be.

Culturally, concessions are viewed as weakness to take advantage of, not demonstrations of good faith to be reciprocated. We've seen that play out in practice time and time again.

That changes the gist of the message?
 
You are wasting your time.

These people seem to see the Palestinians as scum, subhuman vermin. Their hatred of these poor people is truly disgusting.

It is interesting how the longer this tragedy (from the Palestinians side) continues, the more and more Israeli leaders (and the Palestinian haters who support them) sound more and more like the Thousand Year Reich their forefathers fled from way back when.

It won't be long before extremist Israeli's are calling for a Final Solution to the Palestinian problem, I fear.



You are doing a good job RabidAlpaca...keep fighting the good fight.

Dude?!? Ad homs and a nazi reference because your opponents prefer fact-based discussions? I don't think that's the way it's done.
 
West Bank and Gaza Strip GDP per capita
west-bank-and-gaza-gdp-per-capita-us-dollar-wb-data.png

https://tradingeconomics.com/west-bank-and-gaza/gdp-per-capita-us-dollar-wb-data.html


israel-gdp-per-capita.png

https://tradingeconomics.com/israel/gdp-per-capita

Oh yeah...those poor Israeli's who only have 13 times the GDP per capita of those rich Palestinian's.


Let us gaze upon the luxury the Palestinians have:
23Gaza-web-master1050.jpg


But avert your eyes to the horrors of life in Israel:
tayelet-the-vibrant-mediterranean-seaside-beach-promenade-tel-aviv-israel-920x673-1840-the-pinnacle-list-tpl.jpg



Yes, the Israeli's truly are the victims in this :roll:

Wow. Looks like Israel dedicated its resources to the right activities and used their decidedly richer cultural advantages to build a prosperous and successful country.

And looks like the Palestinians' strategy of rejecting peace and independence repeatedly to focus on terrorism, inculcating a death cult among their population and starting wars they could not win may have been ... a subobtimal strategy.

Who would have thunk it?

So clearly that must be racist.


As an aside, I like what you've done with your imagery in leveraging the pathetic fallacy (all bright and sunny with artificially enhanced hues for the picture of Israel, while using grey scale and muted colours for the "typical" image for the Palestinians). Nice bit of propaganda, that.
 
Nope, you're basically a nazi.

Sorry, but come on man.

If we were to deign to take your argument seriously for a moment (which is a big reach), it fundamentally rests on an equivocation where you conflate the unwillingness to recognize the Palestinians' collective right to territory as a people with the Nazis unwillingness to recognize the rights of individual human beings to continue existing at all (this of course included Jews, Slavs, gays, etc.). That you would engage in this sort of intellectual dishonesty for a marginal propaganda point against an online adversary is appalling, of course, but par for the course for both the new left and the anti-Israel crowd.

And of course the Arabs have denied the Jews' rights of self determination in Israel and everywhere else for far longer than the Palestinians viewed themselves as a people, so there is a bit of a pot to kettle thing going on here. Sort of like you guys are trying to overcompensate for the morally deficient position that is the Palestinians' continued goal of destroying Israel by saying well the Jews won't let the Palestinians have their own state to use to destroy Israel and therefore the Jews are worse than nazis. It is sad and pathetic in its own way.

You don't see the Palestinians as having a right to exist.

So this gets to it. That is of course completely untrue. Those people have a right to exist like all people do. While they lost their Jordanian citizenship when they were cut off and would generally be entitled to self determination, they have less of a valid claim than many other people who never have had self determination (e.g., the Kurds, the Yazidis). But they don't actually WANT that. Their entire national identity and purpose is to destroy zionism - to eliminate Jewish self determination in Israel. That goal alone motivates their entire polity, all of their political and geopolitical activity and all of their behaviour vis-a-vis Israel and other countries.

And no, they do not have a right to pursue that national interest and the Israelis have no obligations to enable them to do so.

You don't want them in your country and you don't want them forming their own country, you just want them to leave or die as you creep the cage you've built for them further and further inwards. The world's opposition to Israel is not some anti-semitic plot, it's because you're being ethno-religious ****s.

as the kids today put it, lolz.

There are well over a million Arab Israeli citizens of Israel - you know, "Palestinians" who were part of Israel after the armistice. So clearly your description does not accord with reality, which makes it objectively wrong. Try again?

I never said Hamas was not a factor, just that they're not the ONLY factor. Ethno-centric Jews like Apocalypse see all Palestinians as members of Hamas and Hamas as their one and only representatives. What do you think the Palestinians should do? Just die off as nationless nomads?

again, you really need to lighten up on the hatred. It is blinding you. The fact is that the extremists control Palestinian politics, foreign relations and geopolitical objectives. Even if 90% of the people wanted peace (which isn't true), they would not be able to get their preferred policy implemented because the government (both the PLO and Hamas) don't care about what the people want. They care about their war aims and their own power. That's reality and you are much better off trying to understand the world from a reality-based perspective than to just bounce around like a nazi-insult-spewing bull in a china shop.
 
Sigh - how easy it is for some to comment, without first doing just a bit of research. Very easy to "fault" Israeli leadership for establishing settlements to meet the influx of Jews into the tiny country; just a bit more difficult (?) to include the facts that Jews have been chased from other nations on a regular basis over an extended period of time. I would include links, but it is fairly obvious that the Jew-haters have already made up their minds on this issue. Pity.
 
They're thread banned, no reason to continue responding to them here. Just a heads up.
 
That changes the gist of the message?

It suggests blind hatred is not a motivator and therefore exposes your effort to reduce the argument to "those animals ..." as BS propaganda seeking to avoid engaging on the merits (or thinking about reality)z
 
of course this has nothing to do with religion, most Israeli Jews are secular, the claim is historical - it's the homeland of the Jewish people as a people just as Japan is for the Japanese or the Netherlands are to the Dutch.
Rejecting history and embracing ignorance is unhelpful.

I really don´t wanna get deeper in this discussion, because I´m the descendant of the evil anyway and have no right to criticise Israel, but this sentence makes me laugh a little bit.

Judaism is a religion and the Nazis made them a "people" for better demonising them. And now all the Germans, Poles, Russians wich came there after the holocaust claim they are a "people" with natual right on the land where until then only ~20.000 Jews lived.
Isn´t it funny that Israel uses Nazi Propaganda to back their claim on all that land?
 
Wow. Looks like Israel dedicated its resources to the right activities and used their decidedly richer cultural advantages to build a prosperous and successful country.

And looks like the Palestinians' strategy of rejecting peace and independence repeatedly to focus on terrorism, inculcating a death cult among their population and starting wars they could not win may have been ... a subobtimal strategy.

Who would have thunk it?

So clearly that must be racist.


As an aside, I like what you've done with your imagery in leveraging the pathetic fallacy (all bright and sunny with artificially enhanced hues for the picture of Israel, while using grey scale and muted colours for the "typical" image for the Palestinians). Nice bit of propaganda, that.

Wow, that's some shallow thinking there.

Israel is economically successful because the US helped them. A lot. The economical success of Israel is a matter of military funding & western support.
 
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