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Palestine: Fatah And Hamas Movements To Form A New Unity Government

That's fine and dandy so long as you don't claim to be the world champions of democracy promotion.

Have you seen an Israeli political party that is willing to recognize a Palestinian state on all of the Occupied Territories with East Jerusalem as its capital ? That's what the law states they should be entitled to. How come you don't wish to see anything extreme/rejectionist in this stance ?

Likud has its origins in the Herut party whos platform in the early days was one of outright rejection of negotiations with Arabs , they didn't even recognize the state of Jordan claiming it as a part of Eretz Israel. Has anybody bothered to ask them to renounce these claims before they can be considered worthy of a seat on the negotiating table ? Not to my knowledge

Ha anyone demanded that Israel stop killing Palestinians in droves before they can go to any negotiations regarding a settlement of the conflict ? If not why not

There a really easy way to test whether or not Hamas is willing to accept a two state solution based on the 67 borders , as it has stated it would , and that is to negotiate with them. Or you can just live in 1988 when a handful of Palestinians created the Hamas movement and included in its mandate the objective of liberating all of Palestine and use it as an excuse for the continuing impasse .

Remember that the advent of Hamas is 30 years behind the advent of the PLO. If Hamas is the obstacle to peace why wasn't it sorted out in the 30 years prior to their existence ?



They won the election , accept it .They preempted a coup that was planned by the US and it's allies. It was in the links you , evidently , chose to ignore.




You can't claim to be a supporter of democracy and then cry foul and wish to overturn decisions because you don't like the result. I would have thought that much was at least obvious

An election does not make a liberal democracy. I don't care that they won an election, the are an unacceptable ruling party until they reform. If the Palestinian people want to return them to power at the polls then they will suffer the consequences of opposition and non-recognition.

Have you seen an Israeli political party that is willing to recognize a Palestinian state on all of the Occupied Territories with East Jerusalem as its capital ? That's what the law states they should be entitled to. How come you don't wish to see anything extreme/rejectionist in this stance ?

I don't care what the law says they are entitled to. They will never get all of the West Bank and all of East Jerusalem. That day, if it ever existed, has long since passed away.
 
Interesting the claim how the Israeli people, save for a few noble outliers, have undergone a general moral degeneration.


95 % of them supported the wholesale slaughter of the practically defenceless and impoverished population of Gaza

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/israeli-polls-support-gaza-campaign-media

78% of them support the unilateral annexation of illegally held Palestinian territories

78% of Israelis support unilateral annexation of Ma'ale Adumim, poll finds - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

My heart is broken as I witness the suffering of the Palestinian people and the seeming indifference of Israelis. All my life I’ve been a champion of Israel...I always told myself that the dominant humanity of the Jewish people and the compassionate strain within Torah would reassert itself once Israel felt secure.

Jewish Moral and Ethical Values Also a Victim Of Israel?s Assault on Gaza | WRMEA

That's what happens when you dehumanize " the enemy " it makes the most abhorrent actions all the more possible
 
An election does not make a liberal democracy. I don't care that they won an election, the are an unacceptable ruling party until they reform. If the Palestinian people want to return them to power at the polls then they will suffer the consequences of opposition and non-recognition.

Well , we got there in the end........... you don't care for elections , no problem

You are also , evidently , okay with the demands put upon Palestinians that are not put on Israelis when it comes to the right to represent their peoples. Again , no problem.

In the 7 years after the PLO signed the Oslo Accords the illegal settler population practically doubled in the Palestinian Occupied Territories. Netanyahu bragged about his interpretations concerning Israeli " security zones " in the illegally occupied West Bank . Gaza has been under blockade and seige , a justification for war when anything remotely similar happens to Israel ( think Straits of Tiran )

And people like you wonder why people have decided to vote for different people

I don't care what the law says they are entitled to. They will never get all of the West Bank and all of East Jerusalem. That day, if it ever existed, has long since passed away.

Says it all and proves my point further
 
Well , we got there in the end........... you don't care for elections , no problem

You are also , evidently , okay with the demands put upon Palestinians that are not put on Israelis when it comes to the right to represent their peoples. Again , no problem.

In the 7 years after the PLO signed the Oslo Accords the illegal settler population practically doubled in the Palestinian Occupied Territories. Netanyahu bragged about his interpretations concerning Israeli " security zones " in the illegally occupied West Bank . Gaza has been under blockade and seige , a justification for war when anything remotely similar happens to Israel ( think Straits of Tiran )

And people like you wonder why people have decided to vote for different people



Says it all and proves my point further

Saying that something is against, or in accordance with, international law isn't an argument in and of itself. There are other ethical, practical, and emotional arguments in play.
 
95 % of them supported the wholesale slaughter of the practically defenceless and impoverished population of Gaza

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/israeli-polls-support-gaza-campaign-media

78% of them support the unilateral annexation of illegally held Palestinian territories

78% of Israelis support unilateral annexation of Ma'ale Adumim, poll finds - Israel News - Jerusalem Post



Jewish Moral and Ethical Values Also a Victim Of Israel?s Assault on Gaza | WRMEA

That's what happens when you dehumanize " the enemy " it makes the most abhorrent actions all the more possible

If you wan to have a Jewish ethical argument we certainly can.
 
Saying that something is against, or in accordance with, international law isn't an argument in and of itself. There are other ethical, practical, and emotional arguments in play.

But as is evident from your replies , you don't wish to see the same treatment given to the Palestinian side as you do the Israeli side

If you don't like who they vote for you reject the result

If people wish to apply the law you reject it

So it goes on
 
But as is evident from your replies , you don't wish to see the same treatment given to the Palestinian side as you do the Israeli side

If you don't like who they vote for you reject the result

If people wish to apply the law you reject it

So it goes on

What treatment? It's a conflict, of course I don't expect total equity.
 
What happens is , when you dehumanize the targeted enemy , the willingness to support policies and crimes against them rises to such a level that the most heinous of acts is applauded and roundly supported with just a few , bitterly resented/detested , dissident voices.

Killing is dehumanization in it's ultimate form. Such things generally cause some enmity.

It is the same on the Palestinian side if it makes you feel any better.

I'm well aware of the history there.

In fact its true of many places. Very few individuals are resistant to the national indoctrination systems they are subjected to every day of their lives. For instance , you most likely see your own nation as a hugely benevolent force in the world and are willing to do the filtering out of inconvenient truths you may come across in order to maintain that perception

Sorry, but I don't view my nation, particularly those who work in service of it, as indoctrinated. I view them as willing to secure our national interests, and those interests do not include subjugating the people of other nations. We have seen such within ourselves, and we've learned from it and grown beyond it. Now we seek to contain our enemies, or neutralize them, or defeat them if they insist.
 
95 % of them supported the wholesale slaughter of the practically defenceless and impoverished population of Gaza

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/israeli-polls-support-gaza-campaign-media

78% of them support the unilateral annexation of illegally held Palestinian territories

78% of Israelis support unilateral annexation of Ma'ale Adumim, poll finds - Israel News - Jerusalem Post



Jewish Moral and Ethical Values Also a Victim Of Israel?s Assault on Gaza | WRMEA

That's what happens when you dehumanize " the enemy " it makes the most abhorrent actions all the more possible

That's what happens when a self-declared enemy shoots rockets at you.
 
But as is evident from your replies , you don't wish to see the same treatment given to the Palestinian side as you do the Israeli side

If you don't like who they vote for you reject the result

If people wish to apply the law you reject it

So it goes on

Further, it isn't a rejection of the result, it's the consequences of the outcome. Like I said, if the BNP took power in Britain in a 'free and fair election' I would expect the United States to dramatically realign its relationship with the United Kingdom, and work to undermine the new government where possible. Why? Because I don't care if fascists win elections, they're still fascists.
 
I think the evidence I gave for it clearly shows otherwise

You gave no evidence to Israel interfering with Palestinian politics. You only gave reference to Israeli foreign policy.

Hamas is a terrorist organization which declares it wants Israel annihilated, why on earth would Israel hold diplomatic ties with Hamas rulled government? because it was democratically elected? Hitler was also democratically elected, if, for the sake of argument, Israel existed in 1933, it should have held diplomatic ties with Nazi Germany?
 
But as is evident from your replies , you don't wish to see the same treatment given to the Palestinian side as you do the Israeli side

If you don't like who they vote for you reject the result

If people wish to apply the law you reject it

So it goes on

I for one do not wish to give the would-be perpetrators of genocide parity with those they seek to destroy.
 
That's fine and dandy so long as you don't claim to be the world champions of democracy promotion.

why? whats the connection? a democratic nation should do what is in the best interest for the nation, and not what is best for another democratic nation. Where in the definition of democracy does it say you have to accept the vote of a foreign nation?

Have you seen an Israeli political party that is willing to recognize a Palestinian state on all of the Occupied Territories with East Jerusalem as its capital ? That's what the law states they should be entitled to. How come you don't wish to see anything extreme/rejectionist in this stance ?

The Joint list and Meretz with total of 18 Knesset members.
 
why? whats the connection? a democratic nation should do what is in the best interest for the nation, and not what is best for another democratic nation. Where in the definition of democracy does it say you have to accept the vote of a foreign nation?





The Joint list and Meretz with total of 18 Knesset members.

We have been told many times that the Muslim culture sees democracy as the work of Satan, and diplomacy is a form of warfare in which lies, deceit and treachery are honored tools.
 
We have been told many times that the Muslim culture sees democracy as the work of Satan, and diplomacy is a form of warfare in which lies, deceit and treachery are honored tools.

Yes but in the lefty worldview, we know that if you are prepared to treat anyone badly in response to their democratic choice (except for the Jews, natch), it means you are opposed to democracy. Even if they elect genocidal rejectionist fanatics who campaign on an explicit platform of rejectionism and terrorism.
 
Yes but in the lefty worldview, we know that if you are prepared to treat anyone badly in response to their democratic choice (except for the Jews, natch), it means you are opposed to democracy. Even if they elect genocidal rejectionist fanatics who campaign on an explicit platform of rejectionism and terrorism.
It is unfortunately a view that has historically crossed all lines of political leaning, favouring one leaning in prominence more than another by depending on whatever is or was fashionable at any time.

As such the argument for rejecting the outcome of another people's democratically conducted elections is nothing new and not exclusively reserved for any side of the political spectrum.

See US attitude on Chile's Allende, as just one example.

Which goes to show that individual cases need be seen as being just that individual, lumping them into just one pot of just one political lean being helpful not at all.

To wit: Equating the democratic election to power of the Nazis with the democratic election that brought Hamas to power, where showing a lot of similarities in what followed, is hardly helpful. Basically because alone the rejection of the first was hardly down to a lefty world view, even where the rejection of the second as being pseudo-fascist is today a view favored by many lefties.

At the end of the day the driving force for rejecting the results of either was down to the aftermath being unacceptable to the ambience most having to suffer it.

In the case of Hamas that ambience by now clearly including a large part of the electorate itself, any Gazans saying so however risking their lives. In the context of which another series of rockets lugged from there in an attempt to deflect from the population's discontent with leadership (currently over power cuts) would hardly be surprising, were it to happen.

As far as Israel rejecting the election outcome, reasons have already been covered and putting them down to being driven by fascistoid philosophy just because the current leadership isn't particularly positioned on the liberal side of the spectrum, is no more than a cheap op-out that conveniently precludes more in-depth analysis that might endanger dogmas held.

It's much easier to label a whole people as having become morally degenerate.

Having said all that, it is indeed fashionable today to take the traditional leftie role as having to be with the underdog. Of itself not a reprehensible stance at all but getting pretty stupid when closer examination of the particular dog is conveniently avoided in favor of protecting one's own political lean.
 
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Killing is dehumanization in it's ultimate form. Such things generally cause some enmity.

I'm well aware of the history there.

Sorry, but I don't view my nation, particularly those who work in service of it, as indoctrinated. I view them as willing to secure our national interests, and those interests do not include subjugating the people of other nations. We have seen such within ourselves, and we've learned from it and grown beyond it. Now we seek to contain our enemies, or neutralize them, or defeat them if they insist.

The reply I put together was meant to show why I feel there has been a deterioration in the moral views of the general Israeli population caused by its policies and actions against the Palestinians over many many years that have become the norm and not because they disagree with my own opinions. I believe I backed the view up with the necessary evidence and there's an end to it

That done , I have no real interest in debating the indoctrination or not of the US public here and now. It's not the right place for it for a start and it would be a bit of an epic I'm not , at this time , willing to engage in.
 
I for one do not wish to give the would-be perpetrators of genocide parity with those they seek to destroy.

I would love to be able to give you my honest , no holes barred , response to that statement but the rules of this sub forum , being as they are , leave me with no choice but to let it go

I would appeal to you to look at what Zionism has done to the Arab world, the Palestinians in particular , for close on a century to give you an idea of what it might have contained but I don't think you would accept it anyway
 
What treatment? It's a conflict, of course I don't expect total equity.

Trying to apply the same standards to all parties in the conflict. Especially when talking about the rights and wrongs of it all WRT policies , actions , declarations etc etc

All's I have seen you do is apply different standards so you can justify a bias you prefer to stick to
 
Trying to apply the same standards to all parties in the conflict. Especially when talking about the rights and wrongs of it all WRT policies , actions , declarations etc etc

All's I have seen you do is apply different standards so you can justify a bias you prefer to stick to

What equal standards?

My position is that large portions of the West Bank, and East Jerusalem, should (and will) be annexed to Israel. This is because of both practical demographic, security, and economic concerns; and because I believe that Israel as a greater claim to those regions on the basis of history, religion, and ethical rationales.
 
I would love to be able to give you my honest , no holes barred , response to that statement but the rules of this sub forum , being as they are , leave me with no choice but to let it go

I would appeal to you to look at what Zionism has done to the Arab world, the Palestinians in particular , for close on a century to give you an idea of what it might have contained but I don't think you would accept it anyway

What Zionism has given the Arab World is an example of democracy, civilisation, economic good management and religious tolerance. If you think about it long and hard you may come to agree. It is a pity that the only contribution that the Arabs have made in the creation of the cult of the genocide bomber.

Fortunately I do not require 'the rules of the forum' to maintain my customary good manners and calm tone of voice. I enjoy your posts, if only for the picture of that splendid kind and gentle ape the Orangutan.
 
That's what happens when a self-declared enemy shoots rockets at you.

Does the cycle start with Hamas " rocket " attacks ?

Do the residents there or even the militant residents there wake up one morning and decide that over the next 4 weeks they will fire 5000 rockets at Israel ?

So much focus on Hamas rocket attacks but so little on the murderous blockade of Gaza., Or their right to defend themselves from the biennial slaughterings meted out to them by Israel.

Has the Fatah renouncement of armed struggle for independence brought an end to illegal occupation or illegal settlement expansion there ? As I stated earlier , and you should check this for yourself , in the 7 years after the signing of the Oslo Accords the illegal settler population of the West Bank , including East Jerusalem all but doubled

See below and judge for yourself whether the Fatah decision to renounce armed struggle has benefited them

Statistics on Settlements and Settler Population | B'Tselem

Last point

If you think Israel has the right to defend itself from rocket attacks , and I agree with you that they do , is it not right that the Palestinians living in Gaza should be afforded the same right when Israel decides to , as one Israeli commander callously referred to it , mow the lawn ( read slaughter and terrorize the Palestinians of Gaza ) ?
 
What Zionism has given the Arab World is an example of democracy, civilisation, economic good management and religious tolerance. If you think about it long and hard you may come to agree. It is a pity that the only contribution that the Arabs have made in the creation of the cult of the genocide bomber.

Fortunately I do not require 'the rules of the forum' to maintain my customary good manners and calm tone of voice. I enjoy your posts, if only for the picture of that splendid kind and gentle ape the Orangutan.

It has nothing to do with " good manners " or a " calm voice " I assure you , just restrictions on referring to the reality of the situation and the terms usually associated with that reality............btw you have already fell foul of them yourself

Anyhow , glad you like the peaceful ape picture , I do too
 
You gave no evidence to Israel interfering with Palestinian politics. You only gave reference to Israeli foreign policy.

Oh yes I did. My guess is that you never bothered to read the links I provided , which is okay so long as you don't then make claims like the above.

In the links provided to you and others there were sections that included

A. Israeli withholding of taxes it collects on behalf of the PA

B The mass arrests and detention of 64 Hamas members that included members of the Palestinian Legislative Council and other ministers

C The Israeli decision to allow arms shipments ( oh the irony ) into Gaza to support the Fatah attempt to institute a coup there.

To try to make such a claim is wholly ridiculous when everyone and their dog has witnessed the mass arrests of Hamas members , the harrassment of Hamas members , the targeted killings ( read extrajudicial executions ) of Hamas members by Israeli forces
Hamas is a terrorist organization which declares it wants Israel annihilated, why on earth would Israel hold diplomatic ties with Hamas rulled government? because it was democratically elected? Hitler was also democratically elected, if, for the sake of argument, Israel existed in 1933, it should have held diplomatic ties with Nazi Germany?

It's a terrorist organisation to some but not all. Don't forget the same nations that class Hamas as a terrorist group also classed the ANC as one before black South Africans shed their chains. Now London boasts a statue of Mandella

You can't compare the two situations WRT Nazi Germany imo. The nuances of each situation need to be taken into consideration
 
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