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Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerusalem

Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

It doesn't matter as international recognition doesn't dictate what is the capital of what country.

What does matter is whether your capital city is in your own country ................... East Jerusalem isn't in Israel itself.......it remains Occupied Palestinian Territory......... therein your argument fails
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

What does matter is whether your capital city is in your own country ................... East Jerusalem isn't in Israel itself.......it remains Occupied Palestinian Territory......... therein your argument fails

Due to international opinion, hence the reference to international recognition time after time.

East Jerusalem isn't occupied Palestinian territory, it is a territory that the Palestinian people believe is part of their future state - huge difference as we're not talking about a territory that was ever Palestinian, it did not belong to any nation until it was liberated from the Jordanian occupation in the six-days war and annexed by Israel later on.

The international community chose to recognize it as such in several UN resolutions but it doesn't dictate the reality of whether or not Jeurslaem is the capital of Israel. It doesn't dictate anything really. We're not living under the control of a single world's government thankfully and the bias of bodies such as the UN does not dictate the reality on the ground.

Now as already stated, what decides which city is the capital of what country is the law of that country and only that. This is a fact. Not international opinion promoted through bodies such as the UN and not you and me. Jerusalem is Israel's capital.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

Maybe you could shed a thought for how many deaths on both sides , Arab and Jew , such an incendiary decision would make instead of focusing just on US " embassy personnel "

I am not responsible for what terrorists decide to do, but for sure it would not be the Israelis or our embassy personnel instigating the violence. But I do know the embassy personnel would likely be targeted.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

I am not responsible for what terrorists decide to do,

Assuming you vote you ,personally , play a role in the electing of your leaders. They then prosecute state terrorism on a grand scale , globally. The people that suffer under those attacks may well consider your government leaders/decision makers/military personnel as " terrorists ". So do you see how your comment above can be challenged ?

but for sure it would not be the Israelis or our embassy personnel instigating the violence.

How come you can't see that the violations of the Palestinian people could as easily be seen as acts guilty of " instigating the violence " ? That this persistent Israeli criminality could be viewed as policies aimed at " instigating the violence" ?

Wishing to allocate blame doesn't address the reality that many people would die , unnecessarily , on both sides. That's what you were asked to consider


But I do know the embassy personnel would likely be targeted.

So why throw flames on the fire and cost numerous people their lives ? Be they Arab , Jew or American
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

Assuming you vote you ,personally , play a role in the electing of your leaders. They then prosecute state terrorism on a grand scale , globally. The people that suffer under those attacks may well consider your government leaders/decision makers/military personnel as " terrorists ". So do you see how your comment above can be challenged ?



How come you can't see that the violations of the Palestinian people could as easily be seen as acts guilty of " instigating the violence " ? That this persistent Israeli criminality could be viewed as policies aimed at " instigating the violence" ?

Wishing to allocate blame doesn't address the reality that many people would die , unnecessarily , on both sides. That's what you were asked to consider




So why throw flames on the fire and cost numerous people their lives ? Be they Arab , Jew or American

Who is considered a terrorist and who IS a terrorist are two separate things. The Israelis have not persecuted the Palestinians. The Israelis would have co-existed peacefully with the Palestinians who lived in Israel had the Palestinians co-existed peacefully with them. Most didn't but left the country so their Arab brethren could annihilate the Jews. That didn't work out and then the Israeli's did not allow those Palestinians to return. Why should they?

The Israelis have agreed to any number of deals that would have created a two state solution and it has been the Palestinians who have refused every time. Not only have they refused to accept a two state solution but they stepped up their terrorist attacks on the Israelis citizens. The Israeli government then took the NECESSARY steps to protect their citizens.

Israelis are not lobbing indiscriminate rockets and missiles into Palestinian neighborhoods trying to kill or maim as many as possible or at the very least keeping the people terrified and unable to go freely about their daily lives. Israelis are not sending suicide bombers into Palestinian markets and other populated places trying to injure, kill, maim as many innocent people as they can. The Palestinians do that to Israel.

And Israelis do not have an official policy of intent to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the Earth or harm the Palestinians in any way--in fact have allowed humanitarian efforts to reach the Palestinians unimpeded. All the Palestinian leadership groups do have an official policy of intent to wipe the Israelis off the face of the Earth. Every time Israel has agreed to withdraw from the tiny occupied territories and allow the Palestinians to return, the Palestinians have used those territories to attack the Israelis.

Israel has ALWAYS been a good neighbor to those who allow it to live in peace.

How long does this have to go on--how many centuries--before the world decides the Palestinians should just relocate somewhere else and leave the Israelis in peace? But the Arab world won't allow that--they won't relocate the Palestinians because they are the pawns the Arab world uses as justification to continue to try to destroy Israel. And as those Arab countries gain more and more power within the U.N., the U.N. increasingly takes their side.

The world opinion needs to turn against the Palestinians and support Israel. Only then will the Palestinian leadership give up their hateful ways and allow Israel to live in peace.

From where I sit, that is the way to accomplish peace in the Middle East for both Israel and the Palestinians. And it might have a positive effect to discourage violence throughout the region.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

AlbqOwl said:
Who is considered a terrorist and who IS a terrorist are two separate things.

And terrorism is defined by you alone it seems. A person who would probably refuse to recognize the idea of state terrorism for reasons that would not be hard to understand
The Israelis have not persecuted the Palestinians. The Israelis would have co-existed peacefully with the Palestinians who lived in Israel had the Palestinians co-existed peacefully with them. Most didn't but left the country so their Arab brethren could annihilate the Jews. That didn't work out and then the Israeli's did not allow those Palestinians to return. Why should they?
The Palestinian antagonism to Zionism, prior to the state of Israels existence, was wholly understandable. The realisation of Zionism, they feared, would initiate and ensure their dispossession and displacement from the land.
I think history has shown us all that these fears were well founded and that this has been an ongoing process, right up to the present.
I also think that you should familiarize yourself with Jewish Zionist thinking and discussions concerning the “ transfer “ of Palestinian Arabs prior to the creation of the state of Israel before you preach to others about the benevolence of it all and wish to apportion ALL of the blame on the Arabs.
Israel has made offers to the Palestinians on the two state solution that overwhelmingly pander to the wishes of Israel and deny the Palestinians authentic self determination.
You should,imo, familiarize yourself with what Israel is entitled to under the law and what the Palestinians are entitled to under the law before you attempt to comment on what is a fair deal and what is not.
You would also benefit from acquainting yourself with the acceleration of the expansion of the illegal settlements by Israel since the Oslo Accords. Talking about Palestinian statehood whilst dramatically changing the facts on the ground so as to render it meaningless.
Israel has placed the Palestinians under a brutal and repressive military occupation that is soon to be 50 years old. Their lives are completely blighted by the restrictions enforced on them in order to protect illegal settlers illegally living in their territory.
It’s vast high tech military machine regularly inflicts low level extrajudicial killings that also take the lives of innocent people that just happen to be in the vicinity at the time. The Israeli state terrorism of the Palestinians also rises into biennial mass slaughterings of innocent Palestinian men , women and children that makes the crimes committed against Israel by some Palestinians look like fly ****.

Those in Gaza, the worlds biggest open prison,forced to live under fear of drone or F16 strikes. Fishermen hemmed in and shot at by Israeli gunboats all the while living under a blockade with just enough being allowed in so they don’t all starve to death. Occupiers aren’t allowed to sit and watch whilst the population they occupy dies en masse . That hardly constitutes “ humanitarianism “ in my book.
As for Israel being a good neighbour , well , maybe that’s the case when peace has been agreed upon but prior to that they were a nightmare . After the establishment of the state of Israel, Israel invaded Egypt twice whilst Egypt never invaded Israel once before peace was agreed after Israel had rejected Sadats offers prior to the 1973 war.
In the final analysis , the history confirms that peace can be achieved between Arab and Jew but not before much violence. It was true of Egypt and Jordan , it will also be true wrt the Palestinians.

World opinion reflects the laws governing states. If it is against Israel , which it is and massively so , then it is Israel that needs to address its violations of those laws and stop isolating itself from a valid world consensus

“From where you sit” , imo , you will never be able to see a balanced picture of this conflict because , as shown in your post , you have only ever viewed it through the prism of Israeli propaganda.

You recently claimed that “ you don’t see it ( this conflict ) as extremely “ as I do. So just for the record , my view on a just resolution of this conflict is in line with international law and a massive international consensus , the likes of which is hard to find on anything else. It is endorsed by the world court and all the international Human Rights groups.

So you might need to rethink about who is the “ extremist “ here and who isn’t. Not that I ever expect you to
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

And terrorism is defined by you alone it seems. A person who would probably refuse to recognize the idea of state terrorism for reasons that would not be hard to understand

The Palestinian antagonism to Zionism, prior to the state of Israels existence, was wholly understandable. The realisation of Zionism, they feared, would initiate and ensure their dispossession and displacement from the land.
I think history has shown us all that these fears were well founded and that this has been an ongoing process, right up to the present.
I also think that you should familiarize yourself with Jewish Zionist thinking and discussions concerning the “ transfer “ of Palestinian Arabs prior to the creation of the state of Israel before you preach to others about the benevolence of it all and wish to apportion ALL of the blame on the Arabs.
Israel has made offers to the Palestinians on the two state solution that overwhelmingly pander to the wishes of Israel and deny the Palestinians authentic self determination.
You should,imo, familiarize yourself with what Israel is entitled to under the law and what the Palestinians are entitled to under the law before you attempt to comment on what is a fair deal and what is not.
You would also benefit from acquainting yourself with the acceleration of the expansion of the illegal settlements by Israel since the Oslo Accords. Talking about Palestinian statehood whilst dramatically changing the facts on the ground so as to render it meaningless.
Israel has placed the Palestinians under a brutal and repressive military occupation that is soon to be 50 years old. Their lives are completely blighted by the restrictions enforced on them in order to protect illegal settlers illegally living in their territory.
It’s vast high tech military machine regularly inflicts low level extrajudicial killings that also take the lives of innocent people that just happen to be in the vicinity at the time. The Israeli state terrorism of the Palestinians also rises into biennial mass slaughterings of innocent Palestinian men , women and children that makes the crimes committed against Israel by some Palestinians look like fly ****.

Those in Gaza, the worlds biggest open prison,forced to live under fear of drone or F16 strikes. Fishermen hemmed in and shot at by Israeli gunboats all the while living under a blockade with just enough being allowed in so they don’t all starve to death. Occupiers aren’t allowed to sit and watch whilst the population they occupy dies en masse . That hardly constitutes “ humanitarianism “ in my book.
As for Israel being a good neighbour , well , maybe that’s the case when peace has been agreed upon but prior to that they were a nightmare . After the establishment of the state of Israel, Israel invaded Egypt twice whilst Egypt never invaded Israel once before peace was agreed after Israel had rejected Sadats offers prior to the 1973 war.
In the final analysis , the history confirms that peace can be achieved between Arab and Jew but not before much violence. It was true of Egypt and Jordan , it will also be true wrt the Palestinians.

World opinion reflects the laws governing states. If it is against Israel , which it is and massively so , then it is Israel that needs to address its violations of those laws and stop isolating itself from a valid world consensus

“From where you sit” , imo , you will never be able to see a balanced picture of this conflict because , as shown in your post , you have only ever viewed it through the prism of Israeli propaganda.

You recently claimed that “ you don’t see it ( this conflict ) as extremely “ as I do. So just for the record , my view on a just resolution of this conflict is in line with international law and a massive international consensus , the likes of which is hard to find on anything else. It is endorsed by the world court and all the international Human Rights groups.

So you might need to rethink about who is the “ extremist “ here and who isn’t. Not that I ever expect you to

I have thought about it a great deal. And while I appreciate the time and effort you put into your argument, we are just going to have to disagree on this one. You see, I don't see a justification for terrorism because of what of somebody fears--real, imagined, or manufactured--that somebody else might do, and you apparently do. So we can't agree.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

East Jerusalem isn't occupied Palestinian territory, it is a territory that the Palestinian people believe is part of their future state - huge difference as we're not talking about a territory that was ever Palestinian, it did not belong to any nation until it was liberated from the Jordanian occupation in the six-days war and annexed by Israel later on.

Yes it is Occupied Palestinian Territory as per the applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention , of which Israel is a signatory remember , to the events of 1967.

And if you want to be ultra accurate here let's talk about Israeli claims to all of Jerusalem.

When the partition plan was set out Jerusalem was to be neither part of the Jewish state nor part of the Palestinian state. It was supposed to come under international trusteeship. So please don't try to fool people here that it was ever given to the Israeli state because it wasn't. Israel conquered West Jerusalem in 1948 but didn't manage to conquer East Jerusalem. Since then the 4th Geneva Convention prohibits the acquisition of land via warfare and that's why it is considered to be , under international law signed and agreed to by Israel itself , Occupied Palestinian Territory

It's not part of your country ,so you have no right to count it as your capital . Stick to Tel Aviv and let the Palestinians have East Jerusalem as their capital
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

I have thought about it a great deal.

But only by reading/watching one side of the divide judging by your comments


You see, I don't see a justification for terrorism because of what of somebody fears--real, imagined, or manufactured--that somebody else might do, and you apparently do. So we can't agree.

No ,you see the justification for Israeli state terrorism against the Palestinians as valid because you have no time for the Palestinians full stop. Some of us have tried to understand things from both sides , so yes , we won't agree
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

But only by reading/watching one side of the divide judging by your comments




No ,you see the justification for Israeli state terrorism against the Palestinians as valid because you have no time for the Palestinians full stop. Some of us have tried to understand things from both sides , so yes , we won't agree

You have no clue what I have read or watched on this subject, so don't presume that you know anything about me regarding that. I can accept that we don't agree. I will not agree that I have not studied both sides of the issue extensively.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

Yes it is Occupied Palestinian Territory as per the applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention , of which Israel is a signatory remember , to the events of 1967.

East Jerusalem was not Palestinian territory when it was liberated from the Jordanian occupation so you're pretty much wrong on that.

And if you want to be ultra accurate here let's talk about Israeli claims to all of Jerusalem.

When the partition plan was set out Jerusalem was to be neither part of the Jewish state nor part of the Palestinian state. It was supposed to come under international trusteeship. So please don't try to fool people here that it was ever given to the Israeli state because it wasn't. Israel conquered West Jerusalem in 1948 but didn't manage to conquer East Jerusalem. Since then the 4th Geneva Convention prohibits the acquisition of land via warfare and that's why it is considered to be , under international law signed and agreed to by Israel itself , Occupied Palestinian Territory

It's not part of your country ,so you have no right to count it as your capital . Stick to Tel Aviv and let the Palestinians have East Jerusalem as their capital

Jerusalem is the capital of the state of Israel, has been for decades, and will remain that way forever.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

You have no clue what I have read or watched on this subject, so don't presume that you know anything about me regarding that.

Yes I do because of what you have written and your wish to allocate ALL of the blame on the Palestinians

I can accept that we don't agree.

So can I , I just didn't appreciate your parting shot that inferred that I support terrorism
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

East Jerusalem was not Palestinian territory when it was liberated from the Jordanian occupation so you're pretty much wrong on that.

Nobody really recognised Jordanian annexation of it either. They just stopped the Israelis from conquering all of the former Palestine along with the other Arab forces and world opinion/pressure during the events of 1947-49

Nobody should recognize Israels illegal annexation of it either because it is a violation of a treaty of international law of which Israel itself is a signatory.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

Nobody really recognised Jordanian annexation of it either. They just stopped the Israelis from conquering all of the former Palestine along with the other Arab forces and world opinion/pressure during the events of 1947-49

Nobody should recognize Israels illegal annexation of it either because it is a violation of a treaty of international law of which Israel itself is a signatory.

It was occupied by the Jordanians from the British. "Palestine" in that sense is simply a name given to the land of Israel by those who conquered it, as opposed to Palestine the future state that will hopefully be created for the Palestinian people with its borders yet to be decided.

Sooner or later the international community will have to recognize that, seeing that Israel has been controlling East Jerusalem for 50 years now.
However as surprising as it may be to some this international recognition you keep talking about is hardly as relevant as you make it sound.
For whatever practical cause, Israel has one capital and that capital is Jerusalem, it never had any other one and never will.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

Yes I do because of what you have written and your wish to allocate ALL of the blame on the Palestinians



So can I , I just didn't appreciate your parting shot that inferred that I support terrorism

I can't help what you think I inferred. I intended to infer nothing of the kind.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

(deleted) . . . Israel has one capital and that capital is Jerusalem, it never had any other one and never will.

If we are speaking of the modern state of Israel, you are correct. However, this is not true when speaking of the historic/biblical state called Israel as it wasn't even in the same region as the city of Jerusalem. Judea was the Southern Kingdom and its capitol was Jerusalem. Israel known as the "Northern Kingdom", was conquered by the Assyrians during 722/721 BCE. The capitol ofIsrael, Samaria, experienced just a few changes over the following centuries to a point during the 19th Century CE when it had dwindled down to being a small, fewer than 400 pop., village.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

I sympathize with the Palestinians when it comes to the West Bank and the creation of a territory fit for their state. But I have none when it comes to Jerusalem. It is not theirs, and never will be.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

I sympathize with the Palestinians when it comes to the West Bank and the creation of a territory fit for their state. But I have none when it comes to Jerusalem. It is not theirs, and never will be.

Would you please explain why? Because the ancient Israelites founded it once?

*thinks of Königsberg/Kaliningrad, Straßburg/Strasbourg and several other places*

If you follow this logic the world will be in permanent war for ever...
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

Still does not mean that 1.)International states have to recognize it as such and 2.)States must then move their embassy to the claimed capital.

Yeah, none of that is really true, is it?

A nation's capital is where it sets up its government. If a nation decides to move its seat of government from one place to another (e.g., from St Petersburg to Moscow), it doesn't need "international recognition" for its capital city to move.

Incidentally, it is hard to comprehend the unwillingness of the international community to recognize at least West Jerusalem as Israel's capital as anything other than first and second-order racism (second order being those who are unwilling to take an action because of the racism of others and their expectations about the impact of that racism).
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

The two situations are not comparable.

East Jerusalem is OPT and Israel has no legal claim to it under international law..................... Washington is not under a foreign military occupation and claimed , in part , by another people who reside in the same area and who see it as the capital of any future Palestinian state.

The US is not Palestine/Israel and many people/nations tend to recognize this.

The Palestinians are still there and wanting their homeland too............people/nations recognize this too

Except Israel's seat of government is in WEST Jerusalem and has been there since the 40s. So this is yet another red herring meant to divert from the obvious and transparent racism from the Arab world that was acceded to by the west and fermented by the Soviets.

To the point where the "enlightened left" continues to be completely oblivious to the nonsense inconsistency in their position that EAST Jerusalem is a "Palestinian capital" while WEST Jerusalem, the seat of Israel's government since the beginning, cannot be Israel's.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

What does matter is whether your capital city is in your own country ................... East Jerusalem isn't in Israel itself.......it remains Occupied Palestinian Territory......... therein your argument fails

Occupied from whom?
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

I think nobody would complain if it would be stated "WEST-Jerusalem" - wich is as you say, fact. But if they say "WHOLE-Jerusalem" as it was written by the Israeli Posters, it is different.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

Yes it is Occupied Palestinian Territory as per the applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention , of which Israel is a signatory remember , to the events of 1967.

And if you want to be ultra accurate here let's talk about Israeli claims to all of Jerusalem.

When the partition plan was set out Jerusalem was to be neither part of the Jewish state nor part of the Palestinian state. It was supposed to come under international trusteeship. So please don't try to fool people here that it was ever given to the Israeli state because it wasn't. Israel conquered West Jerusalem in 1948 but didn't manage to conquer East Jerusalem. Since then the 4th Geneva Convention prohibits the acquisition of land via warfare and that's why it is considered to be , under international law signed and agreed to by Israel itself , Occupied Palestinian Territory

It's not part of your country ,so you have no right to count it as your capital . Stick to Tel Aviv and let the Palestinians have East Jerusalem as their capital

Except there was never a state of "Palestine" so it cannot have territory that is occupied. By definition.

What you probably mean to say is that the Palestinians have a right to self determination and independence and as they make up the population in east Jerusalem they have a right to sovereign control of that portion of the city. Which I don't really agree with in respect of Jerusalem, since dividing cities by ethnicity is never really how self determination works, but if you would at least formulate the claim honestly we could avoid along of the mental gymnastics about how the Palestinians have some fictional pre-existing state that has been occupied.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

Yes it is Occupied Palestinian Territory as per the applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention , of which Israel is a signatory remember , to the events of 1967.

And if you want to be ultra accurate here let's talk about Israeli claims to all of Jerusalem.

When the partition plan was set out Jerusalem was to be neither part of the Jewish state nor part of the Palestinian state. It was supposed to come under international trusteeship. So please don't try to fool people here that it was ever given to the Israeli state because it wasn't. Israel conquered West Jerusalem in 1948 but didn't manage to conquer East Jerusalem. Since then the 4th Geneva Convention prohibits the acquisition of land via warfare and that's why it is considered to be , under international law signed and agreed to by Israel itself , Occupied Palestinian Territory

It's not part of your country ,so you have no right to count it as your capital . Stick to Tel Aviv and let the Palestinians have East Jerusalem as their capital

yes, yes. israel "conquered" a territory that was Jewish and which was under siege by the Arabs trying to drive them out. That they resisted that offensive and maintained their own homes to you is "conquering" territory?

There are times when people say things that immediately demonstrate the unseriousness of their analytical approach. Unfortunately, this may be that sort of marker for you. Would invite you to revisit the battles to maintain Jewish communities in Jerusalem from Arab efforts to liquidate them.
 
Re: Senators Threaten to Cut Embassy Security If US Doesn’t Move Its Embassy to Jerus

I think nobody would complain if it would be stated "WEST-Jerusalem" - wich is as you say, fact. But if they say "WHOLE-Jerusalem" as it was written by the Israeli Posters, it is different.

Well, then it shouldn't be a problem for the US to move its embassy to the Western part of Jerusalem.

Except we all know that isn't true. Because of racism against Jews in the Arab world and the enabling of that racism by their leadership and the leadership of the western world.
 
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