question about settlements[W:27]

johndylan1 · Dec 29, 2016

This isn't so much a debate topic as it is a question for those on both sides of the Israeli Palestinian issue. At Issue in the UN is these so called settlements. Here are my questions:
1. In these settlements is it government funded housing or private dollars?
2. Why is it unacceptable for a Jew to build a home in a Palestinian area?
3. Are there Palestinian Arabs living in Jewish areas?
4. In America we have equal housing laws, where discrimination is not allowed based on race ethnicity or religion; does the rejection of these settlements amount to discrimination against the Jewish people?
5. The left in the US has fought in court to allow Illegal immigrants access to fair housing in TX., yet the left does not support Jewish settlements, and vise versa for the right; Can you explain?
Thanks for your view, maybe an honest debate will develop...

Sherman123 · Dec 29, 2016

Re: question about settlements

johndylan1 said:
This isn't so much a debate topic as it is a question for those on both sides of the Israeli Palestinian issue. At Issue in the UN is these so called settlements. Here are my questions:
1. In these settlements is it government funded housing or private dollars?
2. Why is it unacceptable for a Jew to build a home in a Palestinian area?
3. Are there Palestinian Arabs living in Jewish areas?
4. In America we have equal housing laws, where discrimination is not allowed based on race ethnicity or religion; does the rejection of these settlements amount to discrimination against the Jewish people?
5. The left in the US has fought in court to allow Illegal immigrants access to fair housing in TX., yet the left does not support Jewish settlements, and vise versa for the right; Can you explain?
Thanks for your view, maybe an honest debate will develop...

1. It depends. Some are planned communities, extensions of existing neighborhoods. Most is private real estate development.

2. There are severe restrictions on building in locations outside Area A of the West Bank, and even within Area A construction must be built on legally owned land.

3. Yes. They are called Israeli Arabs and make up roughly 20% of the citizenry of the state.

4. I think you know that isn't the case. The issue isn't the settlements per se, it's the use of the settlements as an alleged tool to expand the borders and colonize the frontier.

5. Please stop.

I'm a strong Zionist with family who lives in 'settlements' in the West Bank.

johndylan1 · Dec 29, 2016

Re: question about settlements

Sherman123 said:
1. It depends. Some are planned communities, extensions of existing neighborhoods. Most is private real estate development.

2. There are severe restrictions on building in locations outside Area A of the West Bank, and even within Area A construction must be built on legally owned land.

3. Yes. They are called Israeli Arabs and make up roughly 20% of the citizenry of the state.

4. I think you know that isn't the case. The issue isn't the settlements per se, it's the use of the settlements as an alleged tool to expand the borders and colonize the frontier.

5. Please stop.

I'm a strong Zionist with family who lives in 'settlements' in the West Bank.

Thanks Sherman, for you response. With regard to 4. and 5. Those were serious questions. I asked because I don't know the answers from the perspective of either side.

With regard to question 2. When one reads on the issue, there is talk of agreements and resolutions, but I'm not interested in the legalities per se, I'm interested in the relationship between the people. Indeed from my perspective, we have for reasons I am not fully informed of, one party who doesn't want the other in their midst, Why?

With respect to 4. Does the Israeli government direct and/or financially encourage people to move into those areas? Do those settlements Harm the Palestinian Arabs financially or with respect to the functioning of their daily lives? Do Jews in the settlements have voting rights in their localities that hinder Arab self determination?

Gina · Dec 29, 2016

Re: question about settlements

Moderator's Warning:

Moving to the I/P forum, where all discussions about the Israel/Palestine conflict need to be housed.

The thread will then be under Martial Law.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/99774-me-forum-martial-law-concordance.html

Please abide by those rules going forward.

ido_ · Dec 29, 2016

Re: question about settlements

johndylan1 said:
With respect to 4. Does the Israeli government direct and/or financially encourage people to move into those areas? Do those settlements Harm the Palestinian Arabs financially or with respect to the functioning of their daily lives? Do Jews in the settlements have voting rights in their localities that hinder Arab self determination?

You can divide the Arabs into several groups:
1. Israeli Arabs who live in Israel (pre 67 lines) and are full citizens of Israel (voting for Knesset)
2. Palestinian Arabs who live in East Jerusalem which Israel annexed, they have Permanent Resident status (meaning they vote for the municipality of Jerusalem) and they can apply for citizenship
3. Palestinians who live in area C which is under control of Israel - they live under military government, they vote for the Palestinian athority but it has no athority over their districts
4. Palestinians who live in areas A&B vote for the Palestinian authority which governs their districts

johndylan1 · Dec 31, 2016

Re: question about settlements

ido_ said:
You can divide the Arabs into several groups:
1. Israeli Arabs who live in Israel (pre 67 lines) and are full citizens of Israel (voting for Knesset)
2. Palestinian Arabs who live in East Jerusalem which Israel annexed, they have Permanent Resident status (meaning they vote for the municipality of Jerusalem) and they can apply for citizenship
3. Palestinians who live in area C which is under control of Israel - they live under military government, they vote for the Palestinian athority but it has no athority over their districts
4. Palestinians who live in areas A&B vote for the Palestinian authority which governs their districts

Do Isrealis who live in A and B vote for the local laws and leadership? Or are the Palestinian areas completely segregated with regard to local governence?
What are the issues in area C that make it a militarized zone? Is the Military presence needed for legitimate security purposes?

jet57 · Dec 31, 2016

Re: question about settlements

johndylan1 said:
This isn't so much a debate topic as it is a question for those on both sides of the Israeli Palestinian issue. At Issue in the UN is these so called settlements. Here are my questions:
1. In these settlements is it government funded housing or private dollars?
2. Why is it unacceptable for a Jew to build a home in a Palestinian area?
3. Are there Palestinian Arabs living in Jewish areas?
4. In America we have equal housing laws, where discrimination is not allowed based on race ethnicity or religion; does the rejection of these settlements amount to discrimination against the Jewish people?
5. The left in the US has fought in court to allow Illegal immigrants access to fair housing in TX., yet the left does not support Jewish settlements, and vise versa for the right; Can you explain?
Thanks for your view, maybe an honest debate will develop...

With respect to # 3, Arabs are not forcing their homes into Jewish areas. Israel is expanding very much the same way Western Europeans did in the American colonies, and moreover, for both, it was and is a Manifest Destiny. That's the real problem with it. What feeds the flames from the other side however is this nonsense that Israel does not have a right to exist. By that logic, most nations of the world don't have that right either. The whole thing is simply a feud made up of racial and religious prejudice that in this day and age really has no significant meaning other than through money and politics.

johndylan1 · Jan 3, 2017

Re: question about settlements

jet57 said:
With respect to # 3, Arabs are not forcing their homes into Jewish areas. Israel is expanding very much the same way Western Europeans did in the American colonies, and moreover, for both, it was and is a Manifest Destiny. That's the real problem with it. What feeds the flames from the other side however is this nonsense that Israel does not have a right to exist. By that logic, most nations of the world don't have that right either. The whole thing is simply a feud made up of racial and religious prejudice that in this day and age really has no significant meaning other than through money and politics.

Your opinion seems to be where I am leaning on the issue, my thought was that leftists all over the world are advocates for open border policies. For those on the left, our common humanity and interest in the wellbeing of all peoples dictates policies for the benefit of all regardless of traditional borders, cultures and customs. If, not from a legal perspective but from a humanitarian perspective, Israelis bring no objective harm to the Arabs in Palestinian areas what then is at the heart of the issue? Simple dislike of the culture? In every other instance the left maintains multiculturalism and non segregation as a value, borders be damned, except here. I'm asking why?

ido_ · Jan 4, 2017

Re: question about settlements

johndylan1 said:
Do Isrealis who live in A and B vote for the local laws and leadership? Or are the Palestinian areas completely segregated with regard to local governence?
What are the issues in area C that make it a militarized zone? Is the Military presence needed for legitimate security purposes?

Israelis don't live in A and B (there might be some Israeli Arabs who live there, but its like an Israeli will live in a foreign country).

Regarding Area C, as you know Israel taken the West Bank at 67 from Jordan but it wasn't annexed (except for East Jerusalem) so since then it is under military control. Obviously it is also necessary for the military to be present there in order to combat terrorism and secure the Israeli settlements.

johndylan1 · Jan 4, 2017

Re: question about settlements

ido_ said:
Israelis don't live in A and B (there might be some Israeli Arabs who live there, but its like an Israeli will live in a foreign country).

Regarding Area C, as you know Israel taken the West Bank at 67 from Jordan but it wasn't annexed (except for East Jerusalem) so since then it is under military control. Obviously it is also necessary for the military to be present there in order to combat terrorism and secure the Israeli settlements.

Thanks for your response, I'm really trying to learn a little something here, admittedly I know little on this issue outside of my own perspective.
Question: if there are no Isrealis in A and B, What zone are the so called settlements being built in? Just C?

ChezC3 · Jan 4, 2017

Re: question about settlements

OK, for one, there are no "settlements", there are however, SUBURBS.

By using the palestinian jargon you give legitimacy to the illegitimate. This ridiculous narrative which continues to demonize Jews and perpetuate the victimhood of the palestinians.

Stop.

ido_ · Jan 5, 2017

Re: question about settlements

johndylan1 said:
Thanks for your response, I'm really trying to learn a little something here, admittedly I know little on this issue outside of my own perspective.
Question: if there are no Isrealis in A and B, What zone are the so called settlements being built in? Just C?

C & East Jerusalem which Israel annexed.

Worth noting that Israel didn't build any new settlements since the 90s, Israel only builds new housing inside existing settlements borders.

johndylan1 · Jan 5, 2017

Re: question about settlements

ido_ said:
C & East Jerusalem which Israel annexed.

Worth noting that Israel didn't build any new settlements since the 90s, Israel only builds new housing inside existing settlements borders.

Doesn't that make zones A and B in effect the second state that everyone is touting as the solution? In any case how much imposition, into the daily life of the Palestinian Arab, are these settlements and their people? Still trying to figure out why the settlements are so much of a sticking point

CJ 2.0 · Jan 5, 2017

Re: question about settlements

johndylan1 said:
Doesn't that make zones A and B in effect the second state that everyone is touting as the solution? In any case how much imposition, into the daily life of the Palestinian Arab, are these settlements and their people? Still trying to figure out why the settlements are so much of a sticking point

They are just an excuse. Jewish communities along the seam line are only an "obstacle" because they allow the Palestinians an excuse not to make peace. Their removal is neither necessary nor sufficient for the Palestinians to be willing to make peace, neither is ethnically cleansing Jerusalem of Jews.

oneworld2 · Jan 5, 2017

Re: question about settlements

ido_ said:
Regarding Area C, as you know Israel taken the West Bank at 67 from Jordan but it wasn't annexed (except for East Jerusalem) so since then it is under military control. Obviously it is also necessary for the military to be present there in order to combat terrorism and secure the Israeli settlements.

You could just say it's under an Israeli military occupation to protect illegal Israeli settlements

johndylan1 · Jan 5, 2017

Re: question about settlements

ChezC3 said:
OK, for one, there are no "settlements", there are however, SUBURBS.

By using the palestinian jargon you give legitimacy to the illegitimate. This ridiculous narrative which continues to demonize Jews and perpetuate the victimhood of the palestinians.

Stop.

Actually this is the jargon everyone is familiar with because it is what newscasters use. It's familiar to a wider range of people, and honestly the word "settlement" gives no particular connotation other that that of a group of residents in a defined area.

ChezC3 · Jan 6, 2017

Re: question about settlements

johndylan1 said:
Actually this is the jargon everyone is familiar with because it is what newscasters use. It's familiar to a wider range of people, and honestly the word "settlement" gives no particular connotation other that that of a group of residents in a defined area.

Newscasters use words they're told to use. Of course it is familiar. A lie told a thousand times.... and honestly, you're either terribly naive if you think there's no connotation or incredibly dishonest.

oneworld2 · Jan 6, 2017

Re: question about settlements

ido_ said:
C & East Jerusalem which Israel annexed.

Illegally and without international recognition

on Jerusalem.....

United Nations Security Council Resolution 478, adopted by 14 votes to none, with an abstention from the US, declared the law "null and void."

Who owns Jerusalem? | Al Jazeera America

ido said:
Worth noting that Israel didn't build any new settlements since the 90s, Israel only builds new housing inside existing settlements borders.

None of which makes then any of the less illegal

oneworld2 · Jan 6, 2017

Re: question about settlements

ChezC3 said:
Newscasters use words they're told to use. Of course it is familiar. A lie told a thousand times.... and honestly, you're either terribly naive if you think there's no connotation or incredibly dishonest.

Nope, there is nothing wrong with the term settlements. He's not being " dishonest ".

oneworld2 · Jan 6, 2017

Re: question about settlements

ChezC3 said:
OK, for one, there are no "settlements", there are however, SUBURBS.

By using the palestinian jargon you give legitimacy to the illegitimate. This ridiculous narrative which continues to demonize Jews and perpetuate the victimhood of the palestinians.

Stop.

The settlements are illegitimate according to international law and the World Court , most international HR groups , world opinion......... that's just the facts of the matter

oneworld2 · Jan 6, 2017

Re: question about settlements

johndylan1 said:
Your opinion seems to be where I am leaning on the issue, my thought was that leftists all over the world are advocates for open border policies. For those on the left, our common humanity and interest in the wellbeing of all peoples dictates policies for the benefit of all regardless of traditional borders, cultures and customs. If, not from a legal perspective but from a humanitarian perspective, Israelis bring no objective harm to the Arabs in Palestinian areas what then is at the heart of the issue? Simple dislike of the culture? In every other instance the left maintains multiculturalism and non segregation as a value, borders be damned, except here. I'm asking why?

Well , John , " the Left " is a pretty broad church and encompasses many varying views on this and other subjects

IMO many on the Left oppose Israeli policies on the grounds of a dislike for the Human Rights violations against the occupied Palestinian people, the other two stand out ones I will PM to you to avoid the ML laws here

And the illegal Israeli settlements do have a huge impact , a wholly negative one too , on the Palestinians living in the WB

You might want to look at some of the stuff here for a better idea......

B'Tselem | The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

ChezC3 · Jan 6, 2017

Re: question about settlements

oneworld2 said:
Nope, there is nothing wrong with the term settlements. He's not being " dishonest ".

Then he's naive and you're the dishonest one.

ChezC3 · Jan 6, 2017

Re: question about settlements

oneworld2 said:
The settlements are illegitimate according to international law and the World Court , most international HR groups , world opinion......... that's just the facts of the matter

:naughty

In case you missed where you bumbled.

oneworld2 · Jan 7, 2017

Re: question about settlements

ChezC3 said:
Then he's naive and you're the dishonest one.

Look at your own words and views , if that's at all possible for you , and realize your errors

oneworld2 · Jan 7, 2017

Re: question about settlements

ChezC3 said:
:naughty

In case you missed where you bumbled.

No " bumbling " here , just your lack of understanding of what the post was about

question about settlements[W:27]

johndylan1

Sherman123

johndylan1

Gina

ido_

johndylan1

jet57

johndylan1

ido_

johndylan1

ChezC3

Relentless Thinking Fury

ido_

johndylan1

CJ 2.0

oneworld2

Handsome Pitbull

johndylan1

ChezC3

Relentless Thinking Fury

oneworld2

Handsome Pitbull

oneworld2

Handsome Pitbull

oneworld2

Handsome Pitbull

oneworld2

Handsome Pitbull

ChezC3

Relentless Thinking Fury

ChezC3

Relentless Thinking Fury

oneworld2

Handsome Pitbull

oneworld2

Handsome Pitbull