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Palestinian Exceptionalism ? [W:81]

RetiredUSN said:
The waste of time, is the time you have spent looking at one side of a very important issue.

Israel has a right to preempt Palestinian hostilities.

If that means occupying sections of Palestine, then so be it.
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What is evident from the above is just projection on your behalf because it is you that has only looked at things from " one side "

Why ? Because where are the similar sentiments towards Israeli hostilities carried out against Palestinians ?

Do the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from Israeli hostility/occupation/continued displacement ?

Is their security any less important than the security of Jewish people ?

I recognize Israels' rights to self determination and self defence , I just recognize the same for the Palestinians.

You should, imo , practice what you preach
 
oneworld2 said:
What is evident from the above is just projection on your behalf because it is you that has only looked at things from " one side "

Why ? Because where are the similar sentiments towards Israeli hostilities carried out against Palestinians ?

Do the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from Israeli hostility/occupation/continued displacement ?

Is their security any less important than the security of Jewish people ?

I recognize Israels' rights to self determination and self defence , I just recognize the same for the Palestinians.

You should, imo , practice what you preach
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How many concessions has Israel made, only to have the goal posts moved time and again by your Palestinian terrorist?
 
Apocalypse said:
Nonsense, the establishment of the state of Israel meant establishing a state in the lands of Israel, it didn't mean anyone had to remove himself or be removed from the place where he lived. That is your mistake here, that you fail to recognize that any displacement was the result of warfare not initiated by the Jewish population but by the Arab population in attempt to destroy the state or the prospects of it.
You might as well claim that the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Arab nations that followed the establishment of Israel was to be blamed on the establishment, and that'd be just as wrong.
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Well , on the bright side,you have moved from a denial that anyone was displaced to an explanation of it :roll:

Your " mistake " is to ignore/deny the Zionist wish to transfer the Palestinian Arabs prior to the events of 1947=48. The Arabs were acutely aware that the realisation of Zionism would lead to their dispossession (of their property ) and their displacement ( from the land ). In that context their actions and reactions to an enforced partition plan don't seem that strange and their fears , previously noted , proved to be well founded.

If what you claim were true , and that there was no wish to transfer the Arabs ,there are a few facts that you will be forced to address.

A. What about the numerous examples of Zionist leaders in Jewish organisations talking of transfer prior to 1947 ?

B. Why were the villages and towns destroyed ?

C. Why were they not allowed to return ?

D. Why was the same transfer policy enforced by Israel 20 years later in the aftermath of their war of aggression in 1967 ?

E. Why were they , likewise , not allowed to return ?

F. Why is there ,still, ongoing Israeli policies designed to restrict/hamstring the chances of Palestinian Arab residency in the Occupied Territories/former Palestine ?

IMO you know full well what is and has been going on but to admit it would lay bare what we are actually talking about, the obvious immorality of it and the danger of this undermining your notions of Jewish racial superiority in all things moral
 
RetiredUSN said:
How many concessions has Israel made, only to have the goal posts moved time and again by your Palestinian terrorist?
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It depends on what you consider to be a concession.

I consider a concession to mean compromising on/giving away something that it is your right to have in the first place. With that definition Israel has conceded more or less nothing.

If you consider moves away from the Israeli wish list , IE things they have no right to have/demand in the first place , as concessions , then there have been some.

But this view is obviously based on the racist assumption that Israeli demands on things they have no right to supercedes the rights of the Palestinians to things they do have the right to

It also supports the idea that might is right and that that position has some sort of moral integrity , imo it doesn't and never will
 
oneworld2 said:
Well , on the bright side,you have moved from a denial that anyone was displaced to an explanation of it :roll:
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Show where I've denied people were displaced.
It's been my position long before you joined the boards that some were forced out some were fleeing and some were leaving due to the invading Arab armies who assured them they'll be able to come back once they annihilate the Jewish state.

Your " mistake " is to ignore/deny the Zionist wish to transfer the Palestinian Arabs prior to the events of 1947=48. The Arabs were acutely aware that the realisation of Zionism would lead to their dispossession (of their property ) and their displacement ( from the land ). In that context their actions and reactions to an enforced partition plan don't seem that strange and their fears , previously noted , proved to be well founded.
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That is history revisionism, the Arabs weren't attempting to annihilate Israel because they feared the land they were supposed to establish a state on would be taken from them and their population would be displaced, the Arabs have attempted to annihilate Israel because they were against its establishment in the middle of the Ummah.

If what you claim were true , and that there was no wish to transfer the Arabs ,there are a few facts that you will be forced to address.

A. What about the numerous examples of Zionist leaders in Jewish organisations talking of transfer prior to 1947 ?

B. Why were the villages and towns destroyed ?

C. Why were they not allowed to return ?

D. Why was the same transfer policy enforced by Israel 20 years later in the aftermath of their war of aggression in 1967 ?

E. Why were they , likewise , not allowed to return ?

F. Why is there ,still, ongoing Israeli policies designed to restrict/hamstring the chances of Palestinian Arab residency in the Occupied Territories/former Palestine ?

IMO you know full well what is and has been going on but to admit it would lay bare what we are actually talking about, the obvious immorality of it and the danger of this undermining your notions of Jewish racial superiority in all things moral
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A. refers to what exactly? Statements by people? Was it ever an actual adopted position of the Zionist movement that the Arab residents should be removed? No. B-F are not referring to what happened prior to the warfare, as a result of this warfare people were displaced not as a result of Israel coming to exist. No, you are wrong, and your constant attempts to dismiss an opposition to your false claims using the race card are sad, there is no incident of me supporting any position that considers Jews to be superior beings to others and in fact it is your positions regarding the right of human beings who happen to be Jewish to defend themselves and their right to a country of their own, as well as the obsessive manner you engage the subject with and the double standards you apply to the Jewish state that reveals your position on the Jewish minority, on Jewish people, as inferior beings.
 
oneworld2 said:
It depends on what you consider to be a concession.

I consider a concession to mean compromising on/giving away something that it is your right to have in the first place. With that definition Israel has conceded more or less nothing.

If you consider moves away from the Israeli wish list , IE things they have no right to have/demand in the first place , as concessions , then there have been some.

But this view is obviously based on the racist assumption that Israeli demands on things they have no right to supercedes the rights of the Palestinians to things they do have the right to

It also supports the idea that might is right and that that position has some sort of moral integrity , imo it doesn't and never will
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Listen, we are worlds apart on this.

You keep your thoughts, and I will keep mine.

I see the Palestinians as animals, and will continue to think that way until they stop sending their children into the streets with suicide bomb belts strapped to them.
 
oneworld2 said:
But this view is obviously based on the racist assumption that Israeli demands on things they have no right to supercedes the rights of the Palestinians to things they do have the right to
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This is not a demand he has made and regardless there is no racial aspect to it so even if he has that wouldn't make him a racist. The way you use the term to dismiss your opposition is quite pathetic.
 
RetiredUSN said:
Listen, we are worlds apart on this.
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Correct , I don't see an entire people as " animals " on either side of this conflict. I see good people and nutters/thugs on both side of the divide

You keep your thoughts, and I will keep mine.
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Remember it was you that replied to my post first. If you wish me not to reply to your comments the answer is in your own hands
 
Apocalypse said:
Show where I've denied people were displaced.
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You will deny this because that's just what you do in these circumstances , but here goes

reply 22

Apocalypse said:
No one was displaced when Israel was established
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I already stated the fact that prior to the establishment of the Israeli state in 15 May 1948 some 2-3 hundred thousand Arab Palestinians had been displaced and that by the end of the conflict around 700,000 would have been displaced and not allowed to return.

Apocalypse said:
It's been my position long before you joined the boards that some were forced out some were fleeing and some were leaving due to the invading Arab armies who assured them they'll be able to come back once they annihilate the Jewish state.
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If you believe something different then don't make comments like the one you made in reply 22,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, try being consistent
 
oneworld2 said:
It is a fact that around 2-3 hundred thousand Palestinians had been displaced outside of Palestine before 15th May when the Zionists proclaimed the establishment of the state of Israel and before ANY Arab armies had entered the conflict.

It is also a fact that the Zionist leadership had agreed, well before the outbreak of hostilities in 1947/48 , that " transfer " of the Palestinians from Palestine was the preferred method by which to ensure a Jewish majority in any future Jewish state there.

What is obvious to anyone familiar with this period is that the war gave the Zionists the opportunity to carry out the above. And as if further proof were needed that the displacement of Palestinians from the territory of the former Palestine is part of a long term agenda , the events of 1967 offer us yet another example of the " transfer " of Palestinians out of the territory.

To conclude

The Zionists , before the establishment of the Israeli state , spoke frequently of " transferring " the Palestinians outside of the former Mandate Palestinian territory.

During the 1948 war around 700,000 Palestinians found themselves outside of the territory. Half of the Palestinian towns and villages were destroyed by the Jews and the Palestinian right to return was rejected

Fast forward to 1967 and we see another war and another 2-3 hundred thousand Arab residents " transferred " outside of the territory and once again the right of return was denied them

You put all of this together and it is blatantly obvious what has been and what is going on.

It also renders your comments hollow
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To play devil's advocate a bit, the Jews did as recently as 3 years before that face a holocaust and concerted campaign against their race by Nazi Germany. Adolf Hitler and the Wehrmacht's decimation - at virtually every level of society - of Poland militarily, employing entire armies and tanks and air bombings against civilians and the subsequent reign of terror against the Jews throughout all of WWII and even prior thereto, which stretched across Germany, France, the Benelux, Italy and Eastern Europe and penetrated into all socioeconomic institutions via propaganda, surveillance, police brutality, and military action, certainly shocked the collective Jewish psyche into a constant state of irrationality for the foreseeable future, and for good reason. I would also like to state that the resulting godhead of this psyche - Zionism - isn't inherently Jewish, and Hitler actually agreed with the founder of Zionism in many respects (for example, they both shared the same end goal, getting the Jews out of Europe and establishing a national concentration camp for them to reside in).
 
RetiredUSN said:
Obama ran his mouth prior to the inauguration, why not Trump?

I don't give a rats azz about about your knee jerk reactions either.

Come talk to me when Palestine take peace seriously, and kick out all the terrorists in their government.

How many times has Israel conceded.......... only to have the goal posts moved?
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Obama certainly did not have diarrhea of the mouth during his transition like trump.

Especially with respect to tweets about the F-35/F-18 SH which has affected the stock market.

Especially in regards to U.N. Resolutions all GOPresidents since WW2 have supported.

It's at least a tweet a day as trump continues to try to control the news cycle .
 
Abbazorkzog said:
To play devil's advocate a bit, the Jews did as recently as 3 years before that face a holocaust and concerted campaign against their race by Nazi Germany. Adolf Hitler and the Wehrmacht's decimation - at virtually every level of society - of Poland militarily, employing entire armies and tanks and air bombings against civilians and the subsequent reign of terror against the Jews throughout all of WWII and even prior thereto, which stretched across Germany, France, the Benelux, Italy and Eastern Europe and penetrated into all socioeconomic institutions via propaganda, surveillance, police brutality, and military action, certainly shocked the collective Jewish psyche into a constant state of irrationality for the foreseeable future, and for good reason. I would also like to state that the resulting godhead of this psyche - Zionism - isn't inherently Jewish, and Hitler actually agreed with the founder of Zionism in many respects (for example, they both shared the same end goal, getting the Jews out of Europe and establishing a national concentration camp for them to reside in).
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Abbazorkzog , I am fully aware of the horrific crimes of the Nazis against Jews and others and have an enormous degree of sympathy for those who suffered at their hands. I understand too the grave and understandable effect this has had on the collective conscience of the Jewish people , really I do but if you condemn the attempted ethnic cleansing of one race/people you are right to condemn all attempted ethnic cleansings. . You are either against it or not. I don't think it's something you can cut people a little slack on because of any historical event/s

What do you think ?

Additionally ,as I have stated previously here , it is a complete travesty that the Arabs have had to pay the price for the crimes of European antisemitism of which the Holocaust was the culmination of a long and dark tradition .
IMO the Muslims have become the new Jews since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the subsequent need for a new bogeyman menace to replace the old Soviets, The nightmare needed to justify the vast Western military spending and wars for geoplitical gains etc

In short my presence here is to try to do my bit to stop what I consider to be a gross injustice and the ongoing subjugation and violation of an entire people now approaching the 70 year mark with no end in sight

I agree that Zionism isn't inherently Jewish. It is a nationalist movement created by , predominantly , none religious Jews who saw the political expediency in using the religious elements of Jewish history to garner support for their cause. The old adage that not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews still applies.
 
oneworld2 said:
Abbazorkzog , I am fully aware of the horrific crimes of the Nazis against Jews and others and have an enormous degree of sympathy for those who suffered at their hands. I understand too the grave and understandable effect this has had on the collective conscience of the Jewish people , really I do but if you condemn the attempted ethnic cleansing of one race/people you are right to condemn all attempted ethnic cleansings. . You are either against it or not. I don't think it's something you can cut people a little slack on because of any historical event/s

What do you think ?

Additionally ,as I have stated previously here , it is a complete travesty that the Arabs have had to pay the price for the crimes of European antisemitism of which the Holocaust was the culmination of a long and dark tradition .
IMO the Muslims have become the new Jews since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the subsequent need for a new bogeyman menace to replace the old Soviets, The nightmare needed to justify the vast Western military spending and wars for geoplitical gains etc

In short my presence here is to try to do my bit to stop what I consider to be a gross injustice and the ongoing subjugation and violation of an entire people now approaching the 70 year mark with no end in sight

I agree that Zionism isn't inherently Jewish. It is a nationalist movement created by , predominantly , none religious Jews who saw the political expediency in using the religious elements of Jewish history to garner support for their cause. The old adage that not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews still applies.
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Do not forget Trump and his supporters' scapegoating of Muslims and his pledge to erect a Muslim registry. If he does, I will register as Muslim. I will not sit back and watch what could likely become Hitler 2.0 get away with it. Islamophobia is the new antisemitism, indeed.
 
oneworld2 said:
You will deny this because that's just what you do in these circumstances , but here goes

reply 22

I already stated the fact that prior to the establishment of the Israeli state in 15 May 1948 some 2-3 hundred thousand Arab Palestinians had been displaced and that by the end of the conflict around 700,000 would have been displaced and not allowed to return.

If you believe something different then don't make comments like the one you made in reply 22,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, try being consistent
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When Israel was established meaning in its independence statement. My position (as stated) is that the establishment of Israel didn't cause the displacement of people, not that displacement didn't occur. That is as opposed to your repeated position that Israel's establishment was a move that caused a displacement of people. There was no reason for people to be displaced, and only because of the warfare they did. Had there been no warfare there would be no displacement.
 
NIMBY said:
Obama certainly did not have diarrhea of the mouth during his transition like trump.

Especially with respect to tweets about the F-35/F-18 SH which has affected the stock market.

Especially in regards to U.N. Resolutions all GOPresidents since WW2 have supported.

It's at least a tweet a day as trump continues to try to control the news cycle .
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Obama had diarrhea of the mouth prior to, and after the election.

He blamed everyone but himself.
 
Apocalypse said:
This is not a demand he has made and regardless there is no racial aspect to it so even if he has that wouldn't make him a racist. The way you use the term to dismiss your opposition is quite pathetic.
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His comments on what constitutes as a concession by Israel justify the reply they got.

It's not " pathetic " to point out the racism in such a view .

To be fair to him though , he doesn't hide the fact. There's an element of kudos for honesty for wearing your heart on your sleeve there ,even if I don't like what it is. So in that regard I hold him in higher esteem than the likes of yourself
 
oneworld2 said:
His comments on what constitutes as a concession by Israel justify the reply they got.

It's not " pathetic " to point out the racism in such a view .

To be fair to him though , he doesn't hide the fact. There's an element of kudos for honesty for wearing your heart on your sleeve there ,even if I don't like what it is. So in that regard I hold him in higher esteem than the likes of yourself
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And that hurts me so much obviously but the point is that you cannot just accuse people of racism for no valid reasoning. You do it with literally everyone you oppose in an argument.
 
Apocalypse said:
That is history revisionism, the Arabs weren't attempting to annihilate Israel because they feared the land they were supposed to establish a state on would be taken from them and their population would be displaced, the Arabs have attempted to annihilate Israel because they were against its establishment in the middle of the Ummah.
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There's nothing wrong with revising a view in light of new information. In fact the refusal to do so is what's unbelievable.

We know what the Zionist leaderships were saying about transfer of the Arabs and what that transfer would be classed as today. I agree with the idea that the outside Arab leaderships had no intention of allowing the creation of a Jewish state in their midsts but that doesn't negate the view of the Palestinian Arabs that the realisation of that state would likely cause their dispossession and displacement. A view endorsed as events unfolded and still unfold
 
Apocalypse said:
And that hurts me so much obviously but the point is that you cannot just accuse people of racism for no valid reasoning. You do it with literally everyone you oppose in an argument.
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The view is clearly racist and I showed why it is , that's why you haven't actually tried to refute that post directly

You have an open invitation to do so anytime the mood takes you , or you can just choose to bleat about it like you have done here :popcorn2:
 
Abbazorkzog said:
. Islamophobia is the new antisemitism, indeed.
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That's why I find it repugnant when Jewish people indulge in it , as they do here all too often. If it was wrong to demonize the Jews throughout European history , as it obviously was , it is wrong to demonize Muslims today. And you shouldn't have to remind the Jewish people of that fact
 
oneworld2 said:
There's nothing wrong with revising a view in light of new information. In fact the refusal to do so is what's unbelievable.

We know what the Zionist leaderships were saying about transfer of the Arabs and what that transfer would be classed as today. I agree with the idea that the outside Arab leaderships had no intention of allowing the creation of a Jewish state in their midsts but that doesn't negate the view of the Palestinian Arabs that the realisation of that state would likely cause their dispossession and displacement. A view endorsed as events unfolded and still unfold
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It's foolish to try and differ between the position held by the Arab residents of the land and the Arab nations. The front was clearly united, and just as the Arab leaderships had no intention to allow a Jewish state in the land so did the Palestinian Arabs. Whatever statements you are referring to are irrelevant since it was never the position of the Zionist movement that Arabs need to be displaced, to claim so is to try and rewrite history itself so to make it compatible with an argument.
 
oneworld2 said:
That's why I find it repugnant when Jewish people indulge in it , as they do here all too often. If it was wrong to demonize the Jews throughout European history , as it obviously was , it is wrong to demonize Muslims today. And you shouldn't have to remind the Jewish people of that fact
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That is racism. Jews can be Islamophobic just like any other person, the fact that they're Jewish doesn't change that, there are Jews who hold racist views towards other Jews. Regardless any attempt to compare the status of Muslims in the Western world and that of the Jews during the darkest times of mankind is ridiculously absurd, it's very terrifying that one can make such comparison as if he has no understanding of the differences and has no actual moral compass, at all.
 
oneworld2 said:
The view is clearly racist and I showed why it is , that's why you haven't actually tried to refute that post directly

You have an open invitation to do so anytime the mood takes you , or you can just choose to bleat about it like you have done here :popcorn2:
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I already addressed it and pointed out how there's no racial aspect to it.
For something to be racism there needs to be a racial aspect to it obviously, believing all Americans to be fat isn't racist for example.
 
Apocalypse said:
It's foolish to try and differ between the position held by the Arab residents of the land and the Arab nations. The front was clearly united, and just as the Arab leaderships had no intention to allow a Jewish state in the land so did the Palestinian Arabs. Whatever statements you are referring to are irrelevant since it was never the position of the Zionist movement that Arabs need to be displaced, to claim so is to try and rewrite history itself so to make it compatible with an argument.
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So the broader Arabs supported the Palestinian Arabs in their bid for self determination and their conflict with recently arrived European settlers bent on carving out a state for themselves because they were tired of being the pariahs of the European states from which they had fled , what a shocker. :roll:

I would say that to ignore the pre war Zionist discussions on the " transfer " of the Arab population of Palestine and the subsequent application of it at any and every opportunity since, kind of undermines , completely , your denials
 
oneworld2 said:
So the broader Arabs supported the Palestinian Arabs in their bid for self determination and their conflict with recently arrived European settlers bent on carving out a state for themselves because they were tired of being the pariahs of the European states from which they had fled , what a shocker. :roll:

I would say that to ignore the pre war Zionist discussions on the " transfer " of the Arab population of Palestine and the subsequent application of it at any and every opportunity since, kind of undermines , completely , your denials
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They haven't "supported the Palestinian Arabs in their bid for self-determiantion", that would be had they settled for the partition plan, what they did was to share their willingness to see Israel destroyed and act on it. They failed fortunately. I fully understand your position is to deny the Jewish right to self-determination and attack the creation of Israel but it was fully justified.

To assign to the Zionist movement a position it never held is ridiculous.
 
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