• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

GDP of Palestine could be twice higher without occupation: UN report [W:41]

Status
Not open for further replies.
No it's not " entirely " the " fault " of Hamas

The last conflict was initiated by Israel when it attacked and blamed Hamas for the murder of 3 Israeli teenagers carried out by a lone cell.

Quotation from the link:

A Hamas official has admitted for the first time that members of its militant wing kidnapped and killed three Israeli teenagers in June. This fueled increased tensions with Israel and eventually led to the IDF’s bombardment of Gaza.

https://www.rt.com/news/181940-hamas-israel-kidnapping-teenagers/

Also Israel began with the operation after the rockets launched at its civilians and not before it.
It's the who knows what time I'm catching you at a lie, there will have to be a time when you'll have to realize that whatever you came to believe in through certain newspapers' agenda is just wrong.
 
They have made conflicting statements , just like Netanyahu has btw , on the subject. Does that mean that Netanyahu should not be party to any negotiations also ?
My point slipped right past you. Since the 'side' you are arguing for seeks the genocide of the Jewish people and eradication of the single Jewish state on the planet? No amount of negotiations will ever result in a change in the status quo. Nor should it. And every rejected peace overture by Israel illustrates this. Which ignores the basic absurdity of the concept of "negotiation" with your butcher. Unless it is about how quick a death the butcher will supply. Yet still Israel has tried and more than a few times. I get the impression you don't know much about the history of this topic.
 
I imagine not shooting rockets at the Israelis or bombing their school buses would be a step in the right direction...

A) The West Bank does not shoot rockets at Israel...almost all of them come from the Gaza Strip. The UN report covers both occupied territories.

B) Israel has killed almost eight times as many Palestinian civilians as the other way around (since 2000). And over 11 times more children.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html

C) It is asinine to punish the millions of Palestinians because of a few insane Palestinian terrorists.


Please save your response, because I have NO doubt your mind is COMPLETELY closed on this issue and I am not in the slightest bit interested in it (nor will I read it - why bother?)...I just wanted to correct your statement for those who actually have an open mind on this subject.
 
My point slipped right past you. Since the 'side' you are arguing for seeks the genocide of the Jewish people and eradication of the single Jewish state on the planet? No amount of negotiations will ever result in a change in the status quo. Nor should it. And every rejected peace overture by Israel illustrates this. Which ignores the basic absurdity of the concept of "negotiation" with your butcher. Unless it is about how quick a death the butcher will supply. Yet still Israel has tried and more than a few times. I get the impression you don't know much about the history of this topic.

I got your point and think it's right that the Palestinian factions should renounce their pledge to destroy Israel/Israelis.

My point was that there are extremists on both sides of the divide and the only way I can see to bring about a just settlement ( and it has to be a just settlement ) is to try to exclude them until they change their extremist views. Israel has not offered a truly just settlement to the Palestinians so maybe you need to consider that
 
Please save your response, because I have NO doubt your mind is COMPLETELY closed on this issue and I am not in the slightest bit interested in it (nor will I read it - why bother?)...I just wanted to correct your statement for those who actually have an open mind on this subject.
:funny
 
A) The West Bank does not shoot rockets at Israel...almost all of them come from the Gaza Strip. The UN report covers both occupied territories.

B) Israel has killed almost eight times as many Palestinian civilians as the other way around (since 2000). And over 11 times more children.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html

C) It is asinine to punish the millions of Palestinians because of a few insane Palestinian terrorists.


Please save your response, because I have NO doubt your mind is COMPLETELY closed on this issue and I am not in the slightest bit interested in it (nor will I read it - why bother?)...I just wanted to correct your statement for those who actually have an open mind on this subject.

You haven't said anything that refuted anything he said. Terrorism does come from the WB as well, the occupation helps to combat that but it still exists, the fact that more Palestinians die means nothing regarding to the morality of each side and it's illogical to assume otherwise and the Palestinian terrorists are mostly not insane as that is a medical condition and they are hardly a few, in addition to the fact that Israel has the right to defend itself and by defending itself it doesn't "punish" anyone no more than an armed person who is being shot at by a criminal is punishing that criminal when he shoots at him back. The last sentence was paradoxal, how open minded can you be if you refuse to engage in any discussion, I can't even begin to understand such logic.
 
I got your point and think it's right that the Palestinian factions should renounce their pledge to destroy Israel/Israelis.

My point was that there are extremists on both sides of the divide and the only way I can see to bring about a just settlement ( and it has to be a just settlement ) is to try to exclude them until they change their extremist views. Israel has not offered a truly just settlement to the Palestinians so maybe you need to consider that
The basic reality of hypocrisy in all humans means nothing since we are talking about the barbarity of genocide. And the comparison is ridiculous. You point is obtuse.

As I suspected, you don't know what you are talking about. And clearly have no clue about the history of not only negotiations, but outright offers of peace. Which have included lands and money. All one sided and coming from the side of Israel and they alone. Which is impressive since they are trying to negotiate with anti Semites bent upon the eradication of their way of life, their people and their home. But then there are a lot of useful idiots in the west and at the UN that really pity the poor Palestinians. :shock:
 
Last edited:
You haven't said anything that refuted anything he said. Terrorism does come from the WB as well, the occupation helps to combat that but it still exists, the fact that more Palestinians die means nothing regarding to the morality of each side and it's illogical to assume otherwise and the Palestinian terrorists are mostly not insane as that is a medical condition and they are hardly a few, in addition to the fact that Israel has the right to defend itself and by defending itself it doesn't "punish" anyone no more than an armed person who is being shot at by a criminal is punishing that criminal when he shoots at him back. The last sentence was paradoxal, how open minded can you be if you refuse to engage in any discussion, I can't even begin to understand such logic.

I would not waste 1/2 second reading your thoughts on this matter...your hatred of the Palestinians is legendary around here.

Now me? I hate neither side and have an open mind on this.
 
Last edited:
There's a saying that runs along the lines that it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

There's another saying that runs along the lines of "stupid is as stupid does". What the Palestinians are doing is stupid and it is what put them on their knees in the first place.

Incidentally, seeing the "occupiers" withdraw leaving a whole bunch of capital infrastructure and then smashing it all ain't really "living on your feet". It's demonstrating that your culture and society are a bit special needs.

So whilst the Palestinian resistance to Israeli subjugation and violence maybe futile and some of it deemed to be illegal,

Yes, futile and "deemed to be illegal". Not morally repugnant and abhorrent or anything like that, gosh no.

it is still their choice.

FINALLY. Someone actually ascribing agency and responsibility to the Palestinians for their dysfunction and conduct. Remember this the next time the racism of low expectations turns into "pro-Palestinians" arguing that OF COURSE the Palestinians are going to react to [insert grievance] by [insert act of brutally murdering civilians and then celebrating the murder].

And for every mass slaughter of Palestinians by the Israelis a new generation of attackers are guaranteed.

blah blah. How did that go with the Japanese?

Makes ya wonder if that actually suits the Zionist agenda.

yeah, them Jews love it that the Palestinians keep trying to sneak past soldiers and murder their children. You really understand Jews, don't you.

And once again we see just how unrealistic your own commentary can be . Expecting Hamas fighters , armed with Kalashnikovs , to exit their towns and cities to stand in open ground so as to take on Israeli F 16's and Merkava tanks is just baffling

No, I expect them to be murderous scumbags who use human shields as a routine strategy and base themselves in hospitals and schools. Of course there is a difference between expectations and understandings. I expect. You understand.

Incidentally, they could also, you know, sue for peace and give up the central motivating factor in their entire movement - the destruction of Israel, but godforbid anyone would think they should do that.

That there is widespread corruption within the PA was one of the reasons that they lost the election in Gaza in the first place. And it's not just the Palestinians that engage in kleptocratic activities or excessive military budgets at the expense of social spending.

I'm a bit baffled. So this is what? An admission that yes the analysis is bogus but it isn't like the Palestinians have, what, the MOST corrupt government on the planet, just, what, the top 10%?

I don't really see how this in any way relates to the argument, other than as simply an admission that my observations were right and that the analysis in the original report is dumb.

You can speculate all you want about Palestinian reconstruction but if you want to remain in the " real world " there are many considerations to take into account on the subject.

Like what? Explain how in the real world if the Israelis just rocketed themselves into space but prevented the Palestinians from taking any piece of Israel proper how the Palestinians would have any sort of positive outcome based on their society and government. This should be fun...

There are all of the Israeli building restrictions for one thing, both in the WB and Gaza. There is the fact that the PA , by and large , are given the aid money with all of the problems inherent in that. There is also the sheer scale of the 10's of 1000's of people without homes

So what? None of that is relevant. The Palestinians would immediately devolve into open civil war and rampant corruption. Funds and materiel would be taken by the various warring factions. Nothing would get built and economic activity, already anemic, would decline substantially. Everyone smart and rich enough to leave would leave, except those who think they have more to benefit from the corruption and war bands.

How could any other outcome be possible at this stage?

Also who said Hamas started the war ? Netanyahu , hardly an impartial source.

The Israeli ill treatment , dispossession and displacement of Palestinians predate Hamas by just on 4 decades !!

lol. Sure the Israelis started it. Standard nonsense, but calls for a different thread.
 
Quotation from the link:

According to J.J. Goldberg, the military indictment contains no evidence of orders from Hamas itself and strengthens the thesis that the incident was organized by the Qawasmeh family alone from start to finish.[46] According to Amos Harel and Chaim Levinson, the kidnappers planned to wait a few days, then contact senior Hamas operatives in the Hebron area, to manage the hostage and negotiate a prisoner swap with Israel. In their view it appears doubtful that any senior Hamas official would have been ready to accept that kind of risk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers

After the bodies were found, Arouri boasted about the kidnapping. But the defense establishment believes this was empty boasting, and that he had nothing to do with the plot.

One year after West Bank murder-kidnapping: What Israel's security forces got wrong - Diplomacy and Defense - Haaretz.com

Where is his evidence that Hamas ordered the kidnappings ?

How is a known leader of the Hamas military wing allowed to live unmolested in Turkey when the ones in Gaza are hunted down and killed at any opportunity in " targeted killings "

IMO Saleh Al-Arouri is still lying now as he was then ( see above )

That you believe him isn't a surprise
 
I would not waste 1/2 second reading your thoughts on this matter...your hatred of the Palestinians is legendary around here.

Now me? I hate neither side and have an open mind on this.

Hysterical.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers



One year after West Bank murder-kidnapping: What Israel's security forces got wrong - Diplomacy and Defense - Haaretz.com

Where is his evidence that Hamas ordered the kidnappings ?

How is a known leader of the Hamas military wing allowed to live unmolested in Turkey when the ones in Gaza are hunted down and killed at any opportunity in " targeted killings "

IMO Saleh Al-Arouri is still lying now as he was then ( see above )

That you believe him isn't a surprise

You may use as many conspiracy theories as you wish, that you fail to recognize that Hamas had admitted to the act is merely your own fault and it's funny to watch how you try and engage in empty denial, reality doesn't change simply because you choose to ignore it.

What isn't a surprise here is that you really struggle with the belief that one of the world's most brutal Islamist terror organizations is responsible for yet another act of brutal murder, I wonder if you also don't believe al-Qaeda were behind 9/11 or if it's just Hamas that you can't bear to think of as bad people.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers



One year after West Bank murder-kidnapping: What Israel's security forces got wrong - Diplomacy and Defense - Haaretz.com

Where is his evidence that Hamas ordered the kidnappings ?

How is a known leader of the Hamas military wing allowed to live unmolested in Turkey when the ones in Gaza are hunted down and killed at any opportunity in " targeted killings "

IMO Saleh Al-Arouri is still lying now as he was then ( see above )

That you believe him isn't a surprise

IMO, you are wasting your time.

I don't think Apocalypse would hate the Palestinians any less even if they all held hands in the streets and espoused their love for Israeli's for 24 hours straight.

That is the problem...too many Israeli's flat out HATE the Palestinians (Netanyahu for one). So reasoning with them is near impossible on this subject. It's almost as bad with neocon Americans.
 
IMO, you are wasting your time.

I don't think Apocalypse would hate the Palestinians any less even if they all held hands in the streets and espoused their love for Israeli's for 24 hours straight.

That is the problem...too many Israeli's flat out HATE the Palestinians (Netanyahu for one). So reasoning with them is near impossible on this subject. It's almost as bad with neocon Americans.

I don't hate anyone let alone an entire people, I do however believe that my people have the right to defend themselves when rockets are being launched and when terrorists are murdering people, that is what you see as hatred because you can't accept the fact that Jews have the right to defend themselves from said terrorism. The problem isn't that "Israelis hate Palestinians", it's that Palestinians engage in terrorism and refuse to make peace.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Thread is under mod review. All posts are still subject to moderation. Going forward, please focus on the topic and leave all personal comments directed at each other aside. Thanks.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Thread is under mod review. All posts are still subject to moderation. Going forward, please focus on the topic and leave all personal comments directed at each other aside. Thanks.

Sorry...I should have gotten personal. This subject just gets me riled up though.

No excuse though.
 
And that is exactly why you don't hold the moral high ground, because this is your view on acts of murder, on acts of terrorism.

the implication being that israel, occupying the lands of another people for half a century, holds the moral high ground
don't think so
 
You can add to that the fact that they have consistently turned down every overture towards peace ever put before them too. Which is no surprise when genocide is your open and fervent goal.

why can that not also be said of israel, refusing to agree to the offers of the Palestinian people
 
the implication being that israel, occupying the lands of another people for half a century, holds the moral high ground
don't think so

Actually the only implication is that someone who holds these positions on acts of murder does not hold the moral high ground,
but yes certainly Israel holds the moral high ground in the conflict and the fact it's the occupying power doesn't change that.
 
Actually the only implication is that someone who holds these positions on acts of murder does not hold the moral high ground,
but yes certainly Israel holds the moral high ground in the conflict and the fact it's the occupying power doesn't change that.

LOLOL.

Yeah, Israel refuses to let the Palestinians form their own country, they have killed almost eight times as many of them as the Palestinians have killed Israelis since 2000, Israel has killed over 11 times as many Palestinian children as the reverse since 2011, the Israeli's take land belonging to the Palestinians whenever they feel like it - despite international condemnation.

LOLOLOL

Oh yeah...the Israelis have the moral high ground - NOT. Only the Israelis and neocon Americans agree with you. Most of the rest of the world does not.


But that is okay. Israel is slowly getting more and more isolated globally. 30+ years ago they were admired...now they are the Apartheid of the new millennium. Even America is slowly pulling away...and once they do completely (which they will eventually - guaranteed) - you will be all alone. Surrounded by enemies who hate you for the horrible way you treat the Palestinians (among other things).
You could live in peace by letting them go. But - I assume - your fears and hatred won't allow you to do that.
Also, the Palestinians population is growing FAR faster then yours is. Eventually they will far outnumber you...and then you will have to let them go or you will lose control of your own country...even Olmert knew that - and said so.

Fine...I believe in karma. You want to be the pariahs of the free world...go ahead. See where it gets you.

I just am sorry that the poor Palestinians have to suffer so under your inhumane occupation.
 
Last edited:
LOLOL.

Yeah, Israel refuses to let the Palestinians form their own country, they have killed almost eight times as many of them as the Palestinians have killed Israelis since 2000, Israel has killed over 11 times as many Palestinian children as the reverse since 2011, the Israeli's take land belonging to the Palestinians whenever they feel like it - despite international condemnation.

LOLOLOL

Oh yeah...the Israelis have the moral high ground - NOT. Only the Israelis and neocon Americans agree with you. Most of the rest of the world does not.


But that is okay. Israel is slowly getting more and more isolated globally. 30+ years ago they were admired...now they are the Apartheid of the new millennium. Even America is slowly pulling away...and once they do completely (which they will eventually - guaranteed) - you will be all alone. Surrounded by enemies who hate you for the horrible way you treat the Palestinians (among other things).
You could live in peace by letting them go. But - I assume - your fears and hatred won't allow you to do that.
Also, the Palestinians population is growing FAR faster then yours is. Eventually they will far outnumber you...and then you will have to let them go or you will lose control of your own country...even Olmert knew that - and said so.

Fine...I believe in karma. You want to be the pariahs of the free world...go ahead. See where it gets you.

I just am sorry that the poor Palestinians have to suffer so under your inhumane occupation.

How many Palestinian children died digging those tunnels funded by money intended for humanitarian use?
 
LOLOL.

Yeah, Israel refuses to let the Palestinians form their own country, they have killed almost eight times as many of them as the Palestinians have killed Israelis since 2000, Israel has killed over 11 times as many Palestinian children as the reverse since 2011, the Israeli's take land belonging to the Palestinians whenever they feel like it - despite international condemnation.

LOLOLOL

Oh yeah...the Israelis have the moral high ground - NOT. Only the Israelis and neocon Americans agree with you. Most of the rest of the world does not.


But that is okay. Israel is slowly getting more and more isolated globally. 30+ years ago they were admired...now they are the Apartheid of the new millennium. Even America is slowly pulling away...and once they do completely (which they will eventually - guaranteed) - you will be all alone. Surrounded by enemies who hate you for the horrible way you treat the Palestinians (among other things).
You could live in peace by letting them go. But - I assume - your fears and hatred won't allow you to do that.

Fine...I believe in karma. You want to be the pariahs of the free world...go ahead. See where it gets you.

I just am sorry that the poor Palestinians have to suffer so under your inhumane occupation.

What's keeping peace away is not fear and hatred of Israelis but the Palestinians refusing to make peace and refusing to allow Israel to exist.
That you believe that because the number of casualties on the Palestinian side is higher than that on the Israeli side it dictates which side is engaging the conflict more morally is hysterical and reveals the lack of logic you base your position on. Israel isn't isolated globally and in fact more nations including Saudi Arabia and the UAE are cooperating with it as the years pass, Israel will continue to exist and the sooner you'll recognize it exists and that you cannot change that - the better.
 
BTW - for the record...

..anyone who disagrees with me on this particular subject IS wrong.

Not maybe...100% for certain.

I, of course, am not always right. Quite often I am wrong. But not on this subject. I am 100% correct. Probably technically and 100% morally.

And since I am 100% right...then you are 100% wrong.

Just as it is certain we need oxygen to live...I (and some others) are 100% right on this subject.


I just thought you should know if you were thinking of disagreeing with me...to save you some time and effort as your efforts will be generally ignored and completely wasted.........and, of course, totally and utterly erroneous (especially from a moral perspective).


Shalom


BTW - did I mention I am right on this subject?
 
Last edited:
BTW - for the record...

..anyone who disagrees with me on this particular subject IS wrong.

Not maybe...100% for certain.

I, of course, am not always right. Quite often I am wrong. But not on this subject. I am 100% correct. Probably technically and 100% morally.

And since I am 100% right...then you are 100% wrong.

Just as it is certain we need oxygen to live...I (and some others) are 100% right on this subject.


I just thought you should know if you were thinking of disagreeing with me...to save you some time and effort as your efforts will be generally ignored and completely wasted.........and, of course, totally and utterly erroneous (especially from a moral perspective).


Shalom


BTW - did I mention I am right on this subject?

Did you get your account hacked or something?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom