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Israel Opposes French-Sponsored Peace Conference With Palestinians

oneworld2 said:
No, I didn't " reject " anything.

I accurately stated that the creators of the Israeli state were recent immigrants to Palestine. It's a historical fact

I also stated , correctly , that many of the original Jewish community living in Palestine at that time were against the idea of a Jewish homeland there.

I also stated my opinion that I think it is crazy to kick a people off their land and out of their homes because your people lived there 3 thousand years ago but have resided in other countries for millennia since then

And as a long time supporter of the two state solution , which is the de facto support for the self determination of both sides in the conflict , your argument is an emotional and baseless response to the very real and verifiable argument I put up about your support for the lording over the Palestinians by Israelis
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There was nothing real or 'verifiable' about your claims and you really need to learn to differ between a based argument and an empty claim. So far you've just made empty claims and whenever you were asked to provide anything of substance to back them up you have failed to do so, mostly you just ignore any calls to back your claims up and stick with them regardless and in this case it's the same.

You have indeed rejected the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their homeland by making an argument against their very right to a national home there. Creating Israel didn't kick anyone out, there were several thousands of Palestinians who were either expelled, left because of the Arab leaders' orders or left by their own choice due to fear during the Israeli war of independence but that was after Israel was created and not the moment it came to be, there was no reason for that to happen had there was no attempt to annihilate Israel by the aggressors. The fact that 20% of Israel's population are Arabs alone makes assertions such as the one you're making quite illogical.

Furthermore it should be noted that you're saying "because Jews lived there 3,000 years ago" while in reality there were Jews living in the land of Israel throughout the last 3,000+ years, so there's a strong refusal to acknowledge the facts here on your side since that was already brought to your attention.

It's illegal under the 4th Geneva convention
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Once again show where it says that a military occupation is a form of action that will always be considered illegal. You're really proving my point here by refusing to come up with anything of substance. Instead of simply dodging things you should look to accept the fact that you may be wrong and that the reason nothing actually supports your positions is because they are inaccurate at best and simply false most of the time.

Funny but these rabid antisemites also criticise and condemn the Palestinians who violate human rights and/or commit crimes. Not only that, the clue is in the name , they criticise many many countries around the world for their violations of human rights.

But the fact that they dare to criticise the Israeli Jews is obviously too much for someone like you.
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These organizations are political, it's common knowledge, they have times when they try to be fair that's true, but most of the time they'll just focus on criticizing Western democracies, the US more than others and in regards to Israel like most far-left leaning organizations or individuals they too see it as the biggest 'enemy' and the largest target.

In an editorial published by The New York Times on Tuesday, Bernstein said that while the Middle East is populated by authoritarian regimes "with appalling human rights records," in recent years Human Rights Watch "has written far more condemnations of Israel for violations of international law than of any other country in the region."
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Ynetnews News - Human Rights Watch founder says group biased against Israel

That doesn't alter what I stated one iota
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Empty denial.
 
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Apocalypse said:
You have indeed rejected the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their homeland by making an argument against their very right to a national home there. Creating Israel didn't kick anyone out, there were several thousands of Palestinians who were either expelled, left because of the Arab leaders' orders or left by their own choice due to fear during the Israeli war of independence but that was after Israel was created and not the moment it came to be, there was no reason for that to happen had there was no attempt to annihilate Israel by the aggressors. The fact that 20% of Israel's population are Arabs alone makes assertions such as the one you're making quite illogical.
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1. I never " denied " that Jewish people had lived in Palestine for millennia , I stated , accurately , that many of the Jews resident in Palestine when the immigrant Zionists arrived were against the idea. Are you saying this isn't true ?

If so time for you to start backing up your claims and we will find that far from them being "empty" claims they are outright lies or gross distortions

Long before Israel was created the leadership of the Zionists had discussed the problem of what to do about the Palestinians living there. They talked of " transfer " which in actual fact was expulsion outside of the territory.
Even before the advent of outside Arab soldiers in May 1948 some 200,000 Palestinians had been expelled or had fled in the face of Jewish atrocities like Dier Yassin. By the end of the war that had swelled to around 800,000.

Now you can argue that they were not all expelled but what isn't in any doubt is that they were not allowed to return and hundreds of their villages were destroyed so they had nowhere to come back to.

Fast forward 20 or so years and we see another war when around another 250.000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from their homeland never being allowed to return

It doesn't take a genius to work out that there is an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians going on here

So the 20% of Arabs, who you now see as useful for propaganda purposes , living in Israel are just the ones that the Israelis haven't managed to manipulate out of the former Palestine. Hardly undermines anything that ive said


Once again show where it says that a military occupation is a form of action that will always be considered illegal. You're really proving my point here by refusing to come up with anything of substance. Instead of simply dodging things you should look to accept the fact that you may be wrong and that the reason nothing actually supports your positions is because they are inaccurate at best and simply false most of the time.
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The whole world considers it illegal because they know what the law states. All the human rights groups agree .They have a decent moral code that believes it is wrong for one people to occupy and subjugate another people and violate all their human rights.

It's a moral universal and that's why it enjoys overwhelming support.

That you oppose it completely shows you up


These organizations are political, it's common knowledge, they have times when they try to be fair that's true, but most of the time they'll just focus on criticizing Western democracies, the US more than others and in regards to Israel like most far-left leaning organizations or individuals they too see it as the biggest 'enemy' and the largest target.
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It's hard to see another example of the systematic abuse of an entire people at the hands of another people for so long coupled with the serial violation of international laws and countless UN resolutions.

If you are in the cross hairs , it's through your own abhorant actions .

Is the whole world antisemitic or are they just appalled by how Jewish nationalism has played out ?




Empty denial.
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On your part , absolutely
 
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oneworld2 said:
1. I never " denied " that Jewish people had lived in Palestine for millennia , I stated , accurately , that many of the Jews resident in Palestine when the immigrant Zionists arrived were against the idea. Are you saying this isn't true ?

If so time for you to start backing up your claims and we will find that far from them being "empty" claims they are outright lies or gross distortions

Long before Israel was created the leadership of the Zionists had discussed the problem of what to do about the Palestinians living there. They talked of " transfer " which in actual fact was expulsion outside of the territory.
Even before the advent of outside Arab soldiers in May 1948 some 200,000 Palestinians had been expelled or had fled in the face of Jewish atrocities like Dier Yassin. By the end of the war that had swelled to around 800,000.

Now you can argue that they were not all expelled but what isn't in any doubt is that they were not allowed to return and hundreds of their villages were destroyed so they had nowhere to come back to.

Fast forward 20 or so years and we see another war when around another 250.000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from their homeland never being allowed to return

It doesn't take a genius to work out that there is an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians going on here

So the 20% of Arabs, who you now see as useful for propaganda purposes , living in Israel are just the ones that the Israelis haven't managed to manipulate out of the former Palestine. Hardly undermines anything that ive said
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Nowhere do I recall referring to a claim about "many" among the Jews living in the land at the time opposing the establishment of Israel. What is "many" though? Either you claim a majority opposed it or you make an irrelevant claim, and no the overwhelming majority of Jews in the region at the time supported their right to their own state. There were always different opinions and even today there are ultra-orthodox groups who oppose the existence of the state but that's quite meaningless really and pointless.

It is important to note that not only not all of the Palestinians who were displaced after 1948 were expelled there is no indication that the majority of them haven't left willingly as there were widespread calls from Arab leaders for them to evacuate at the time so that the Arab forces could maneuver with more ease. For an ethnic cleansing to exist there needed to be a systematic attempt to cleanse the land from the Arab ethnicity, something that wasn't done at all and in fact the Arab population in the land has only been increasing year after year, it's really one of the most ignorant assertions along with the comparison to SA revolving the anti-Israeli agenda if not the most ignorant of them all. Yes the fact that a fifth of Israel are ethnically Arab makes that assertion ridiculously illogical there's no point trying to deny that. Only one side has attempted to actually clean the land from a certain ethnicity and it was not the Israeli side, the side that welcomed the many Arab inhabitants of the land as citizens of the state as stated in Israel's very declaration of independence.

The whole world considers it illegal because they know what the law states. All the human rights groups agree .They have a decent moral code that believes it is wrong for one people to occupy and subjugate another people and violate all their human rights.

It's a moral universal and that's why it enjoys overwhelming support.

That you oppose it completely shows you up
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Way to go showing that you have nothing to back your position yet you just feel like holding it, you couldn't even bring yourself to refer to an actual law yet you claim it's illegal.

It's hard to see another example of the systematic abuse of an entire people at the hands of another people for so long coupled with the serial violation of international laws and countless UN resolutions.

If you are in the cross hairs , it's through your own abhorant actions .

Is the whole world antisemitic or are they just appalled by how Jewish nationalism has played out ?
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You're just trying to justify the bias, at least you recognize the bias exists, kudos for that I guess.
 
Going back into history, what is today the Middle East was'nt palestinan neither juish land. The people of Israel moved from Egipt, and poeple already living there were arabs, I suppose. They melted end during the Roman Empire, when Jesus was born, all were sharing that land. That is what Religions say (more or less). In recent centuries, the Turkish (Ottomans??) took over, and when thy lost it, England and France took over (1st World war) and splitted that enourmus territory into Irak, Palestinia, Siria..., establishing protectorates. After 2nd world war, the United Nations decided to give part of Palestinia to the Jewish People to found Israel. It is rather difficult to say to whom bilong that land, as both people have enough rights on it. Justice is almost impossible to apply, and usually the strongest is the winner, nowadays Israel and the States
 
Milano said:
Going back into history, what is today the Middle East was'nt palestinan neither juish land. The people of Israel moved from Egipt, and poeple already living there were arabs, I suppose.
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No, actually Arabs were living in the Arabian Peninsula at the time, that's why they're called Arabs.
Only after the Arab conquests there were Arabs living in the lands outside of that peninsula, including Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, etc.
 
justabubba said:
tell us the number of years this israeli occupation of Palestinian lands has been ongoing
and then tell us how long until it will end
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It has been going on since Israel had enough of Jordanian and Palestinian terrorist attacks against Israel and following a warning to the Jordanians that an attack on Israel during the war initiated by the Egyptians would result in Israel defensively seizing those territories.

It continued through the Israel offer in 1970 to return the territory in exchange for a recognition of Israel and through the Arab rejection of peace offers at Camp David and Taba. It continued while the Palestinians launched their terror war against Israeli civilians and reveled in their cult of death, and now continues while the Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state or contemplate even entering into direct negotiations.

And it will continue until the Palestinians abandon the core of their national identity, which is fundamentally about denying Zionist aspirations and not about promoting Palestinian aspirations. Which as you probably know will be a very long time.

Incidentally, your nonsense positions and obstructionism are not helping with this.
 
justabubba said:
i assert your argument is a bogus one because israel has the requisite military/policing infrastructure to defend itself
to insist that it is for israel's security is a ruse to justify occupying the lands of another people
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Please explain how Israel has the capabilities to defend itself from terrorism from a bordering failed state (which is what the Palestinian “state” will undoubtedly become), when the entire culture and identity of the Palestinians is based around hating and killing Jews.

Short of reoccupying the territory, of course.

And how does Israel protect itself from the Iranians establishing themselves in that failed state and using that base to further attack Israel.
 
OK. Do you know who were the people living in that area before the Israelis moved from Egipt? You reply will free me from searching in the web. Thanks.
 
Milano said:
OK. Do you know who were the people living in that area before the Israelis moved from Egipt? You reply will free me from searching in the web. Thanks.
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Well as far as the Bible documents there were numerous groups of people living in Canaan prior to the exodus, including the Hittites, Amorites, Jebusites, Zemarites, Arvadites, Hamathites, etc.
Historically speaking? Who knows, all of these people are long gone. As we know in comparison to what we have today there were very few people alive in the world back then (27-72 million on the entire planet) so these people were more like small tribes.
 
oneworld2 said:
You do realise that the article you cited predates the talks by 4 years ?
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I didn't, but as far as I know the Palestinians have not changed their position.


justabubba said:
How many times must the Palestinians recognize Israel? - Opinion - Israel News | Haaretz.com
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So long as Friday sermons are allowed to continue preaching against Israel's legitimacy, probably quite a few more times.


Milano said:
Going back into history, what is today the Middle East was'nt palestinan neither juish land. The people of Israel moved from Egipt,
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The Israelites were the Iron Age kingdom that arose in the West Bank area after the global collapse of Bronze Age society.
 
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