• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Why does Israel need foreign aid?

Masterhawk

DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2016
Messages
1,908
Reaction score
489
Location
Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Israel has a ppp per capita of $34,300 which is higher than that of Czech Republic ($31,600), Cyprus($32,800), Slovakia($29,700), Portugal($27,800), and Poland($26,500). None of those countries get any foreign aid so why should Israel?

151111110652-us-foreign-aid-2014-exlarge-169.jpg

Ok, I kinda lied about Portugal and Poland not receiving foreign aid from the US but it's so tiny. For those who say that Israel needs a strong military, let me say this: Israel didn't need help repelling the first arab invasion or winning the six day war in.... well..... six days. They even have nuclear weapons.

I'm not saying that I think Israel should go away. Israel is one of the few countries in the middle east which respect different religious beliefs. Although muslims living in Israel face some discrimination, its nothing compared to what christians and atheists face in many neighboring countries. They also have the most stable government in the middle east and are one of the few democracies in the middle east + north africa.
 
Short answer... it upsets all the right people.
 
Israel has a ppp per capita of $34,300 which is higher than that of Czech Republic ($31,600), Cyprus($32,800), Slovakia($29,700), Portugal($27,800), and Poland($26,500). None of those countries get any foreign aid so why should Israel?

View attachment 67208578

Ok, I kinda lied about Portugal and Poland not receiving foreign aid from the US but it's so tiny. For those who say that Israel needs a strong military, let me say this: Israel didn't need help repelling the first arab invasion or winning the six day war in.... well..... six days. They even have nuclear weapons.

I'm not saying that I think Israel should go away. Israel is one of the few countries in the middle east which respect different religious beliefs. Although muslims living in Israel face some discrimination, its nothing compared to what christians and atheists face in many neighboring countries. They also have the most stable government in the middle east and are one of the few democracies in the middle east + north africa.

It's a good question, and when one considers that absolutely no strategic interests are being served, one has to wonder. Follow the money, many say, and doing that may help. Somewhere in Washington there are huge motivations for continuing support of a nation that is nothing but a thorn in the side of the US. It might take another Bernstein and Woodward though.
 
Keep them happy?

I don't think we should spending that kind of money on them though, nowhere near that much.

My mild support of Israel is just that, mild.
 
Israel has a ppp per capita of $34,300 which is higher than that of Czech Republic ($31,600), Cyprus($32,800), Slovakia($29,700), Portugal($27,800), and Poland($26,500). None of those countries get any foreign aid so why should Israel.

Because federal level politicians are handsomely paid (through campaign contributions, PAC resources etc) to provide aid to Israel by AIPAC and other powerful pro-Israel bundlers and lobbying groups, and the wealthy donors/well-connected lobbyists they represent; yet another toxic symptom of private money in public office.
 
Israel's military spending per capita is also double than those in the countries you listed.
Israel doesn't get "aid" it gets military aid and the US military aid obligates Israel to purchase US goods.
 
It's a good question, and when one considers that absolutely no strategic interests are being served, one has to wonder. Follow the money, many say, and doing that may help. Somewhere in Washington there are huge motivations for continuing support of a nation that is nothing but a thorn in the side of the US. It might take another Bernstein and Woodward though.

No strategic interests are being served according to who, exactly? You?
Random baseless assertions are, well, just that.
 
No strategic interests are being served according to who, exactly? You?
Random baseless assertions are, well, just that.

Tell us about the essential American interests that are great enough that they outweigh all other foreign aid recipients.
 
Tell us about the essential American interests that are great enough that they outweigh all other foreign aid recipients.

Oh so your random assertion didn't have anything to back it up?
I was sure you would reply with some kind of a supportive argument to your claim that absolutely no strategic interests - such as the fact that Israel develops defensive systems using that money that are later on used by the United States - are being served by that move. Shocked, I am.
 
No strategic interests are being served according to who, exactly? You?
Random baseless assertions are, well, just that.

I think it is a combination of things.

Some military aid was part of the Camp David Agreements - Egypt gets subsidies so Israel gets them too.

Some relates to interests in maintaining the US military-industrial program, both because Israel needs to spend this money in the US and because this reduces the money spent on Israeli military development (Israel could be a more substantial competitor to the US if that spending were redirected to domestic developers). You see this most clearly in the latest round where Israel is now precluded from spending any of the money outside the US.

Some relates to wanting to maintain Israel firmly within the US sphere of influence and the benefits that the US derives from that - no military aid from the US makes it easier for Israel to trade with the Chinese or the Russians, for example (both for imports and exports), while potentially reducing Israel's willingness to share proprietary technologies with the US.

Israel could be better off if it reduced its dependence on the US because of the extra degrees of freedom it opens up, provided Israel could maintain its dependence on the US for resupply inventories as required, but that too could decline if Israel reduces its purchases of US arms and increases trade with other countries.

All in all, the US economy and military companies probably benefit from this aid just as much if not more than Israel does, so if anyone is going to complain about this it really should be the Israeli military companies and startups looking to develop low-cost alternatives for military applications who cannot get sufficient scale because Israel is spending these dollars in the US.
 
Israel has a ppp per capita of $34,300 which is higher than that of Czech Republic ($31,600), Cyprus($32,800), Slovakia($29,700), Portugal($27,800), and Poland($26,500). None of those countries get any foreign aid so why should Israel?

View attachment 67208578

Ok, I kinda lied about Portugal and Poland not receiving foreign aid from the US but it's so tiny. For those who say that Israel needs a strong military, let me say this: Israel didn't need help repelling the first arab invasion or winning the six day war in.... well..... six days. They even have nuclear weapons.

I'm not saying that I think Israel should go away. Israel is one of the few countries in the middle east which respect different religious beliefs. Although muslims living in Israel face some discrimination, its nothing compared to what christians and atheists face in many neighboring countries. They also have the most stable government in the middle east and are one of the few democracies in the middle east + north africa.

It's an outpost of civilization in nasty neighborhood.
 
Tell us about the essential American interests that are great enough that they outweigh all other foreign aid recipients.

They have been and continue to be a dependable ally in a nasty place of strategic importance.
 
Israel has a ppp per capita of $34,300 which is higher than that of Czech Republic ($31,600), Cyprus($32,800), Slovakia($29,700), Portugal($27,800), and Poland($26,500). None of those countries get any foreign aid so why should Israel?

View attachment 67208578

Ok, I kinda lied about Portugal and Poland not receiving foreign aid from the US but it's so tiny. For those who say that Israel needs a strong military, let me say this: Israel didn't need help repelling the first arab invasion or winning the six day war in.... well..... six days. They even have nuclear weapons.

I'm not saying that I think Israel should go away. Israel is one of the few countries in the middle east which respect different religious beliefs. Although muslims living in Israel face some discrimination, its nothing compared to what christians and atheists face in many neighboring countries. They also have the most stable government in the middle east and are one of the few democracies in the middle east + north africa.

We subsidize Europe in total to a good toon and have been doing so for a good time now.
 
Oh so your random assertion didn't have anything to back it up?
I was sure you would reply with some kind of a supportive argument to your claim that absolutely no strategic interests - such as the fact that Israel develops defensive systems using that money that are later on used by the United States - are being served by that move. Shocked, I am.

That's all you have? The largest military-industrial complex in the world buys a few items from Israel, and so that justifies billions in aid? The US buys from other nations, to which they do not lavish billions in aid, and for that matter Israel sells arms to other countries, such as China, potential adversaries of the US.

So what are you saying here exactly, that those sort of systems could only have come from Israel, as no one else in the world is smart or capable enough to develop them themselves? Unless you want to edge your statement towards ethnic or racial overtones, then it is the weakest of arguments on its own. The US gives billions away, and then spends more millions buying items that likely would have been developed domestically, and for that matter, might have been foregone altogether. Why don't you tell us the net gain for the US in spending billions to get back systems similar to which already exist, or are of marginal significance, or are also being sold to potential competitors like China.

Do you have anything else?
 
That's all you have? The largest military-industrial complex in the world buys a few items from Israel, and so that justifies billions in aid? The US buys from other nations, to which they do not lavish billions in aid, and for that matter Israel sells arms to other countries, such as China, potential adversaries of the US.

So what are you saying here exactly, that those sort of systems could only have come from Israel, as no one else in the world is smart or capable enough to develop them themselves? Unless you want to edge your statement towards ethnic or racial overtones, then it is the weakest of arguments on its own. The US gives billions away, and then spends more millions buying items that likely would have been developed domestically, and for that matter, might have been foregone altogether. Why don't you tell us the net gain for the US in spending billions to get back systems similar to which already exist, or are of marginal significance, or are also being sold to potential competitors like China.

Do you have anything else?

Quite a useless response - filled with yet more nonsensical assertions and ridiculous diversions - unless that's what you were going for that is.

A) That's not all I have, it seems logical however that when you make the random baseless assertion that there is absolutely no strategic interest behind the decision of the US government (and many administrations before it) to give military aid to Israel - not even a single one - that one example will be enough. That's how logical people act and think, they see someone saying "none" and they give him one, so to expose his claim as a baseless one. Your diversion by using that "that's all you have" argument, if we could call it that, is pathetic and as I was saying useless, I doubt it would work on anyone and will in any possible outcome somehow spare you the need to recognize that you were making a false, baseless remark. Do accept that now that you were ultimately left with either doing so or declare yourself a liar/ignorant by your very own actions. Finally to actually provide an answer no that is clearly not all I have and you can see CJ's above post for other examples "I have".

B) Your claims that were made to attempt and dismiss the single example I've given are simply absurd. Israel develops those systems that the US requires and makes use of, in what way is that saying that only Israel can do so? If I made an invention and someone else used it, should that contribution be dismissed by saying that someone else could invent that for that someone to use, so I basically did nothing important? How does that even sound logical to you I cannot begin to understand. And then you went on to suddenly throw in the "ethnic or racial overtones" thing which immediately threw everything straight into the twilight zone, hysterical. Do you not notice how easily you're making use of racism to forward your agenda? That's awful.
 
In general Genash's point appears to be that the amount of aid Israel receives is disproportionately high relative to its strategic value (or lack thereof), the opportunity cost (in the event those billions were retained and spend domestically), level of cooperation/reciprocity (for example Israel is increasingly uncooperative with US demands for moratoriums on settlement expansion) and economic need (it is certainly capable of funding its own military liabilities), particularly given that Israel arms developments with these subsidies are not precluded from distribution to enemies/rivals of America in light of its economic prowess/development.
 
Quite a useless response - filled with yet more nonsensical assertions and ridiculous diversions - unless that's what you were going for that is.

A) That's not all I have, it seems logical however that when you make the random baseless assertion that there is absolutely no strategic interest behind the decision of the US government (and many administrations before it) to give military aid to Israel - not even a single one - that one example will be enough. That's how logical people act and think, they see someone saying "none" and they give him one, so to expose his claim as a baseless one. Your diversion by using that "that's all you have" argument, if we could call it that, is pathetic and as I was saying useless, I doubt it would work on anyone and will in any possible outcome somehow spare you the need to recognize that you were making a false, baseless remark. Do accept that now that you were ultimately left with either doing so or declare yourself a liar/ignorant by your very own actions. Finally to actually provide an answer no that is clearly not all I have and you can see CJ's above post for other examples "I have".

Wow. Someone has stepped on the lion's tail. And I think his name starts with G. But OK, I'll bite. You have one argument out of many, given only as example, and with CJ's post it was expected to be enough. It was not. The term essential strategic interests implies that without these interests being satisfied, very bad things could happen; major national goals not achieved, essential functioning terminated or sidetracked. Which of those systems you described would cause these things to happen?

I'd suppose CJ's post is an accurate description of events, but it in no way makes your case. What he is saying is essentially, the US taxpayers gives a gift to Israel, which then returns most of it to US arms manufacturers, thereby providing a few defense related jobs, and associated economic spin-off. When I fly into a US airport, or drive down an inner city street, I don't have to doubt that there are other uses for such funds, and if I were to consult an economist, I'd bet my pension that he or she would say such projects would have a larger multiplier effect for the economy. If the case was to be made that any segment of industry needs a shot in the arm, certainly defense would be at the back of the list, as the US spends over $600 billion already in that sector. The argument that such gifts keeps Israel on a shorter leash, and prevents them from supplying technology to potentially adversarial countries hardly paints Israel as a great buddy. It is also rather meaningless, as Israel does trade with, and sell arms to, anyone they want, including China. It also suggests that the US arms industry, the largest in the world, would run into trouble competing with Israel's. Again, some defense contractors could complain that this is so, but overall this seems a weak case.

B) Your claims that were made to attempt and dismiss the single example I've given are simply absurd. Israel develops those systems that the US requires and makes use of, in what way is that saying that only Israel can do so? If I made an invention and someone else used it, should that contribution be dismissed by saying that someone else could invent that for that someone to use, so I basically did nothing important? How does that even sound logical to you I cannot begin to understand. And then you went on to suddenly throw in the "ethnic or racial overtones" thing which immediately threw everything straight into the twilight zone, hysterical. Do you not notice how easily you're making use of racism to forward your agenda? That's awful.

Just an observation here, but I think the big adrenaline rush is on your side of the fiber optic cable, not mine. You are missing the point here, yes the US and Israel and other states make and trade things, and this is all well and good, but what is required in the sense of essential strategic interest? To look at it another way, if the products that Israel supplied to the US suddenly stopped for some reason, would there be a crisis, some major collapse of a security function, an economic dilemma? I don't think so.

The fact is that on balance Israel is more liability than asset to the US. The military products and defense sharing are a very light counterweight to the many billions in aid poured into Israel, and the ongoing ill will and terrorism inspired by America's one sided stance on the Israel/Palestine conflict. It's a whack of political as well as financial capital expended, and the supposed benefits are shaky indeed.
 
Europe and the USA created the Israel mess, so why not support them?

Israel is a island surrounded by the nastiest stone aged imbeciles imaginable.
 
Israel has a ppp per capita of $34,300 which is higher than that of Czech Republic ($31,600), Cyprus($32,800), Slovakia($29,700), Portugal($27,800), and Poland($26,500). None of those countries get any foreign aid so why should Israel?

View attachment 67208578

Ok, I kinda lied about Portugal and Poland not receiving foreign aid from the US but it's so tiny. For those who say that Israel needs a strong military, let me say this: Israel didn't need help repelling the first arab invasion or winning the six day war in.... well..... six days. They even have nuclear weapons.

I'm not saying that I think Israel should go away. Israel is one of the few countries in the middle east which respect different religious beliefs. Although muslims living in Israel face some discrimination, its nothing compared to what christians and atheists face in many neighboring countries. They also have the most stable government in the middle east and are one of the few democracies in the middle east + north africa.

Which of those other countries are surrounded by countries and people dedicated to their extermination?

I suspect my response violated the rules. It's hard to write a sentence about the Middle-East and not violate the rules. But, rules are intended to stop discussion.
 
Which of those other countries are surrounded by countries and people dedicated to their extermination?

I suspect my response violated the rules. It's hard to write a sentence about the Middle-East and not violate the rules. But, rules are intended to stop discussion.

So it's the business of the US to fund nations that face serious threat? In that case, billions should be pouring into the Baltic states, Hong Kong, the Congo, and a few other places. Yet they are not.

And there are no states dedicated to the extermination of Jews or Israel. Egypt and Jordan have signed peace treaties with Israel, Saudi Arabia offered a comprehensive peace, backed by the Arab League, which was rejected out of hand by Israel. There are a couple of terrorist groups that would do damage if they could. Any idea why they are so angry? Probably not.

And if you are going to reply that the US just backs good honest folk, because they are nice, please think again. At various times the US has backed Saddam Hussein, the Shah of Iran, Pol Pot, and Joseph Stalin, if and when it was deemed in US interests. This is realpolitik, not a schoolyard popularity contest. In fact American backing of Israel really only started big time with the Nixon administration, for whatever reason, and was not a US tradition before that.
 
So it's the business of the US to fund nations that face serious threat? In that case, billions should be pouring into the Baltic states, Hong Kong, the Congo, and a few other places. Yet they are not.

And there are no states dedicated to the extermination of Jews or Israel. Egypt and Jordan have signed peace treaties with Israel, Saudi Arabia offered a comprehensive peace, backed by the Arab League, which was rejected out of hand by Israel. There are a couple of terrorist groups that would do damage if they could. Any idea why they are so angry? Probably not.

And if you are going to reply that the US just backs good honest folk, because they are nice, please think again. At various times the US has backed Saddam Hussein, the Shah of Iran, Pol Pot, and Joseph Stalin, if and when it was deemed in US interests. This is realpolitik, not a schoolyard popularity contest. In fact American backing of Israel really only started big time with the Nixon administration, for whatever reason, and was not a US tradition before that.

Fooled me. Sounds like schoolyard popularity contest.

"A website with close ties to Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has outlined why it would be acceptable to kill all Jews and annihilate Israel."
'Kill all Jews and annihilate Israel!' Iran's supreme leader lays out legal and religious justification for attack | Daily Mail Online

 
Because Israel is a product of imperialism, and therefore imperialists will do all the can to prop it up.
 
Fooled me. Sounds like schoolyard popularity contest.

"A website with close ties to Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has outlined why it would be acceptable to kill all Jews and annihilate Israel."
'Kill all Jews and annihilate Israel!' Iran's supreme leader lays out legal and religious justification for attack | Daily Mail Online


"A website associated with" the supreme leader of Iran. You need to check your sources Mr P, and go further than that, and do some background reading beyond the lurid and screaming headlines. Iran plays the Israel card, because they can gain leverage with certain groups enraged by that countries actions, and thereby boost their own position in the Mid-East. The only people who might kill a lot of Jews in Israel are some extremist militant groups in Palestine, who are probably doing just what Americans would do if China decided they would take the west coast of the US, because after all, it was Asian immigrants who were the original settlers in the area, and so they have a right.
 
Tell us about the essential American interests that are great enough that they outweigh all other foreign aid recipients.
Adding onto what others have said, Israel is doubtlessly the most stable nation in the Middle East and has a fantastic intelligence service, so it is in our interest to keep them on our side for counterterrorism purposes and to have guaranteed influence in the region. Also, someone remarked in another thread about this topic a few years ago that Israel can do things in the region we can't do but are in our interests. Even though Syria and especially Ba'athist Iraq developing nuclear weapons would be a blow to the United States' interests in the Middle East, we were not in a position to take decisive military action to prevent it. Since Israel is/was perpetually in a state of hostility with those states anyway, they could afford to destroy those nations' nuclear capability without losing their nonexistent standing. If Iran is ever seriously about to develop nuclear weapons, Israel and not the US should carry out the strikes that thwart them.
 
In general Genash's point appears to be that the amount of aid Israel receives is disproportionately high relative to its strategic value (or lack thereof), the opportunity cost (in the event those billions were retained and spend domestically), level of cooperation/reciprocity (for example Israel is increasingly uncooperative with US demands for moratoriums on settlement expansion) and economic need (it is certainly capable of funding its own military liabilities), particularly given that Israel arms developments with these subsidies are not precluded from distribution to enemies/rivals of America in light of its economic prowess/development.

Don't try to sugarcoat his words he was saying there was absolutely no strategic interest in that deal, not that the amount is too high relative to the stratetgic value (which on its own is a false assertion).
Furthermore Israel never did sell any of the developments made using that money (Arrow missile, Iron Dome, etc.) to any enemy of the US, so that statement is false as well. I think you're confusing things with the Chinese incident which was a lone case and didn't have anything to do with technology developed by Israeli-American cooperation using that money.
 
Back
Top Bottom