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US: Israel broke its word on new settlements

Are all of the settlements/settlers illegal under international law ?

Probably. But that's really neither here nor there in my opinion. It's an abstraction that has no bearing on the resolution of the conflict or what is ethical or moral.
 
you have pointed out the underlying problem: eliminate the settlers upon the lands of another people and you will have eliminated the need for settlements
and thank you for your first-hand perspective

I suppose. But that isn't a productive line of inquiry because 600,000 people aren't going to be deported, nor are their cities going to be razed. Anymore than the Palestinians of the West Bank are going to be ejected across the Jordan. The question then is what can be done with what exists.
 
I suppose. But that isn't a productive line of inquiry because 600,000 people aren't going to be deported, nor are their cities going to be razed. Anymore than the Palestinians of the West Bank are going to be ejected across the Jordan. The question then is what can be done with what exists.

then, were i to physically remove you and your family from your settlement home under threat of force, you would be accepting of that new reality and would not feel compelled to regain that property from which you had been displaced?
i don't think so
and that hypothetical scenario describes the Palestinians' continued plight
 
then, were i to physically remove you and your family from your settlement home under threat of force, you would be accepting of that new reality and would not feel compelled to regain that property from which you had been displaced?
i don't think so
and that hypothetical scenario describes the Palestinians' continued plight

Sure, if you physically removed them. But that isn't going to happen. So the question isn't an ethical abstraction, it's what the best possible feasible outcome is.

Anyone who doesn't have a mind for practicality has no business venturing into these issues.
 
then, were i to physically remove you and your family from your settlement home under threat of force, you would be accepting of that new reality and would not feel compelled to regain that property from which you had been displaced?
i don't think so
and that hypothetical scenario describes the Palestinians' continued plight

Settlements were not built on lands where people lived who were prior to the establishment of these settlements physically removed from their homes, either you're being ignorant of history or are attempting to rewrite it here.
 
Wars end when one side no longer has the will or the means to keep fighting. This one will continue until Israel, which is the stronger combatant, decides to finish the fight for good. It has not shown signs that it is prepared to do that. Its strategy instead seems to be to use only enough force to keep the Palestinian Arabs in check indefinitely.
 
Answering a question =/= evading it.
You were asking if Israel will maintain the land during the talks, not as a conclusion of an agreement.
As to the question of whether it would maintain such land after such an agreement is reached, Israel probably does desire to hold parts of the land of the West Bank where the major settlements exist in return for land swaps from Israeli territory, there were already several offers made in the past to the Palestinians where these were the conditions.

Are all the settlements/settlers illegal ?

No I wasn't but it doesn't matter because you have answered it . albeit , reluctantly

So it's fair to conclude that Israel wants to hold on to territories it illegally occupies in any peace agreement with the Palestinians

And it's also fair to say that , despite your not mentioning it , Israel will also want to keep hold of East Jerusalem which it illegally occupies.

It will also reject any right of return for Palestinians.

Well, what the Israelis want and what the law allows them are two very different things. People should be made fully aware that if the Palestinians allow even 1 sq yard of their territory to remain in Israeli hands as part of a peace agreement that is a concession
 
Probably. But that's really neither here nor there in my opinion. It's an abstraction that has no bearing on the resolution of the conflict or what is ethical or moral.

I don't know how you have concluded the above TBH

How can it be ethical or moral to illegally occupy someone elses land and transfer your population onto it whilst forcing the locals to suffer terribly as a result ?
 
The anti-Israel rhetoric emerging out of America is slightly disturbing, considering the fact we're the ones interfering in their elections and transforming Israel into what could basically be a stationary military installation in several ways. I can understand the disposition against Israel emerging out of Europe and Palestine, but - in my opinion - the United States has no right to entertain antisemitic rhetoric aimed at defaming Israel whilst simultaneously raping and hijacking their economy and infrastructure.
 
Are all the settlements/settlers illegal ?

No I wasn't but it doesn't matter because you have answered it . albeit , reluctantly

So it's fair to conclude that Israel wants to hold on to territories it illegally occupies in any peace agreement with the Palestinians

And it's also fair to say that , despite your not mentioning it , Israel will also want to keep hold of East Jerusalem which it illegally occupies.

It will also reject any right of return for Palestinians.

Well, what the Israelis want and what the law allows them are two very different things. People should be made fully aware that if the Palestinians allow even 1 sq yard of their territory to remain in Israeli hands as part of a peace agreement that is a concession

You refer to the international law - meaning the international community - as a side in the negotiations between two entities. It isn't. It's not even a moral guide, as it isn't about morality.
Concessions are made by giving up on things you have, not on things you desire.
Regardless before we talk about concessions there needs to be the willingness to even make concessions, and before that the willingness to even enter talks.
 
I suppose. But that isn't a productive line of inquiry because 600,000 people aren't going to be deported, nor are their cities going to be razed. Anymore than the Palestinians of the West Bank are going to be ejected across the Jordan. The question then is what can be done with what exists.

I used to believe strongly in the two state solution but the way that Israel has changed the facts on the grounds so dramatically I feel that there is little chance of a viable Palestinian state ever taking shape now

I don't know how viable a bi national state would be due to the violent history and disparity between the two sides
 
You refer to the international law - meaning the international community - as a side in the negotiations between two entities. It isn't. It's not even a moral guide, as it isn't about morality.
Concessions are made by giving up on things you have, not on things you desire.
Regardless before we talk about concessions there needs to be the willingness to even make concessions, and before that the willingness to even enter talks.

Well I actually mean that international law should be the point of departure for any discussions with a view to resolving the conflict in a just way. Because if it's not just it has little chance of survival. And I disagree about it not being a moral guide. It's got to be better than might is right , the current situation , which is morally bankrupt imo
 
I don't know how you have concluded the above TBH

How can it be ethical or moral to illegally occupy someone elses land and transfer your population onto it whilst forcing the locals to suffer terribly as a result ?

I never said that it was. I just said that I'm not overly concerned with what may, or may not, be in accordance with international law in this instance. Most of my younger family members weren't even alive when Six Day War happened and I don't think it's their responsibility to abandon their homes to satiate a desire for moral redress. The real issue, as I see it, is where the borders should be drawn and what needs to happen in order to abet a Palestinian state coming into existence while recognize that 600,000 people can neither disappear nor be merged into that state.

In other words the reason why I don't care about what is illegal in the abstract is because it is completely unhelpful. Israel isn't going to be pressured, warred, or convinced to abandon these territories wholesale, nor are the Palestinians going to simply tolerate the permanent status quo. Making a great cry about the immorality of it all might be soothing to those on the sidelines but it's unhelpful and irrelevant to those of us with skin in the game.

If that makes sense.
 
I never said that it was. I just said that I'm not overly concerned with what may, or may not, be in accordance with international law in this instance. Most of my younger family members weren't even alive when Six Day War happened and I don't think it's their responsibility to abandon their homes to satiate a desire for moral redress. The real issue, as I see it, is where the borders should be drawn and what needs to happen in order to abet a Palestinian state coming into existence while recognize that 600,000 people can neither disappear nor be merged into that state.

In other words the reason why I don't care about what is illegal in the abstract is because it is completely unhelpful. Israel isn't going to be pressured, warred, or convinced to abandon these territories wholesale, nor are the Palestinians going to simply tolerate the permanent status quo. Making a great cry about the immorality of it all might be soothing to those on the sidelines but it's unhelpful and irrelevant to those of us with skin in the game.

If that makes sense.

Right , I understand you better now and I can respect that view to an extent. Thanks for the clarity

I think what grinds my gears , and I didn't detect it in the above which is refreshing , is the common held view in the West that the Palestinians are always the ones to be blamed for the lack of a resolution to the conflict. I don't think it's fair and I don't even think it's accurate

As I said in the previous post I think that international law should be the point of departure of any talks concerning conflict resolution.

How do you feel about a bi national state combining both territories ?

I'm not pushing for it because I'm not convinced it would ever work , just curious as to how you would view it
 
Are all the settlements/settlers illegal ?

No, of course not. Israelis living in Jerusalem are living in Israel. That territory was never to be ceded to the Palestinians even under the partition. It was illegally occupied by Jordan, but Israel, which had rights to it by virtue of the Palestine Mandate from the League of Nations (which was subsequently inherited by the UN when it replaced the League), liberated it and undertook "close settlement of the land", to which it is entitled.

As for the rest of the WB, that land too is disputed, as no other nation has a better sovereign claim on it than Israel. The Palestinians want self determination (and to conquer Israel), and they are entitled to self determination once they give up their aspirations to destroy Israel, but just because some territories which they didn't live on were part of an administrative territory, it does not follow that they should have sovereign control over those territories upon independence. In any event, Israel also had a right to those lands as per the League of Nations mandate (which again required the mandatory trustee to facilitate "close settlement of the land" by the Jews).

I know this isn't the law you want to talk about, and I know the usual approach for partisans is just to pretend this law doesn't exist and focus on made up interpretations that fit your narrative, but that's the reality.

Incidentally, most Palestinians are descendants of waves of conquerors and economic migrants following the capital the Jews brought into their mandate, so again why that means they have a better claim than the Jews to mandatory lands that they never lived on and which are vacant to this day is beyond me, unless the issue here is that one side are Jews.
 
I used to believe strongly in the two state solution but the way that Israel has changed the facts on the grounds so dramatically I feel that there is little chance of a viable Palestinian state ever taking shape now

Lol. I've always found this one funny.

Please explain how and why Israeli communities along the seam line preclude the functioning of a Palestinian state assuming that the Palestinians could muster the competent governance, institutions and social fabric necessary to sustain one.

And to skip a few steps, since there is no reason why Israel couldn't remove communities that would actually have an impact on the functionality of a Palestinian state, pointing to tiny little Jewish communities in the interior of the WB isn't actually an argument and does not even remotely address the question of why Israeli communities along the seam line would have any impact or why these other communities preclude any sort of two-state solution?

Finally, why in the world would you blame the unworkability of a two-state solution on Israel, rather than the Palestinians, the very core of their national identity being the objective of destroying Israel. As long as that remains the core element of their identity any sort of peace is impossible, and they have only worked to reinforce that while the international community sticks their collective fingers in their ears and refuses to acknowledge reality.
 
Well I actually mean that international law should be the point of departure for any discussions with a view to resolving the conflict in a just way. Because if it's not just it has little chance of survival. And I disagree about it not being a moral guide. It's got to be better than might is right , the current situation , which is morally bankrupt imo

Yes a moral guide. The Jews, continually persecuted and exiled, were given rights after the first world war in a territory that was very sparsely populated. The British gave the territory to the League of Nations, who established a mandate for that territory to be a Jewish National Home. They appointed an administrator for that mandate (the British), who were obligated, under the law, to use its administration to facilitate, inter alia, close settlement of the land by the Jews. They were forbidden from severing any part of that mandate and allocating it to any other nation.

They then systematically broke those commitments, ceding territory to Syria in the Golan, creating Transjordan, and systematically working to block Jewish immigration even though massive influxes of Jewish capital were creating labour shortages which turned the mandate into a magnet for migrants from the Arab world.

And even though their breach of the mandate, and the law, trapped millions of Jews in Europe and left them at the mercy of the Nazis.

Following that, of course, the Jews kept working, kept "illegally" immigrating to their national home (the mandate for which was transferred to UN authority, which continued to be administered by the British under the original terms).

The Arabs planned to destroy Israel and kill or expel the Jews but failed. The Arabs signed an armistice agreement which specifically refused to recognize the cease fire lines as borders, given their position that the Jews were not entitled to any territories in the mandate. They illegally occupied Gaza (Egypt) and the WB (Jordan), which up until Jordanian occupation had been knows as Judea and Samaria. But of course those occupations were illegal and the mandate still governed.

So when the Israelis captured those territories following Egypt's planned attacks (Gaza) and Syria and Jordan's attacks, they took control over territory that had been mandated as a Jewish national home. And you may not know this but Israel pleaded with the Jordanians not to attack Israel and would not have occupied the WB were it not for the Jordanians' acts of war.

And of course Israel has offered the Palestinians independence multiple times, always to be rejected, and generally violently, with this vioence, as always, directed against Jewish civilians. Because the Palestinains have no national identity beyond their opposition to Zionism - their opposition to Jews having sovereign control over their own state and their own destiny. That is what motivates their national ethos and that is why continued occupation is required.

But at some point that hopefully will end and the Palestinians will deserve independence. But not on every inch of land they say they want, whether that land is in Haifa or Jaffa (which they want even though it is in Israel proper), or Jerusalem or Maleh Adumim. They don't need those lands to be sovereign, they, as always, just want it because the Jews live and plan to stay there.
 
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Right , I understand you better now and I can respect that view to an extent. Thanks for the clarity

I think what grinds my gears , and I didn't detect it in the above which is refreshing , is the common held view in the West that the Palestinians are always the ones to be blamed for the lack of a resolution to the conflict. I don't think it's fair and I don't even think it's accurate

As I said in the previous post I think that international law should be the point of departure of any talks concerning conflict resolution.

How do you feel about a bi national state combining both territories ?

I'm not pushing for it because I'm not convinced it would ever work , just curious as to how you would view it

Caroline Glick believes it is a good idea too (see The Israeli Solution: A One-State Plan for Peace in the Middle East). It was a good read and has a lot to be said for it, but suspect it is utterly unworkable given the amount of deprogramming that would need to happen. Perhaps it would be possible with a complete collapse of respect by the Palestinians for their manipulative leadership, but I'm skeptical.
 
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No, of course not. Israelis living in Jerusalem are living in Israel. That territory was never to be ceded to the Palestinians even under the partition. It was illegally occupied by Jordan, but Israel, which had rights to it by virtue of the Palestine Mandate from the League of Nations (which was subsequently inherited by the UN when it replaced the League), liberated it and undertook "close settlement of the land", to which it is entitled.

The de facto Israeli annexation of Jerusalem isn't recognized by anyone. Everybody has East Jerusalem down as Occupied Palestinian territory ( OPT ) , true ? It was occupied by Israel , illegally , after the Geneva Convention and thus the territory is OPT .

That's right it wasn't ceded to the Palestinians under the partition but neither was it ceded to the Israeli state. It was to be under international control that was to allow all religious groups access to it. Jordan occupied it before the 1948 Geneva convention and thus , just like the Palestinian territory the Israelis conquered prior to the convention , is not covered by it. 1967 onwards is different because the convention applies


As for the rest of the WB, that land too is disputed, as no other nation has a better sovereign claim on it than Israel. The Palestinians want self determination (and to conquer Israel), and they are entitled to self determination once they give up their aspirations to destroy Israel, but just because some territories which they didn't live on were part of an administrative territory, it does not follow that they should have sovereign control over those territories upon independence. In any event, Israel also had a right to those lands as per the League of Nations mandate (which again required the mandatory trustee to facilitate "close settlement of the land" by the Jews).

Sorry but you are out in the extremities of legal opinion here. Just about everyone/organisation recognises the applicability of the GC to the conflict and they all state that the WB and EJ are Occupied Palestinian Territory.

The " mandate " you are referring to was just the powerful colonialists seeking to justify their colonialism. The world, and the laws , have moved on a bit since then. Thankfully
I know this isn't the law you want to talk about, and I know the usual approach for partisans is just to pretend this law doesn't exist and focus on made up interpretations that fit your narrative, but that's the reality.

The UN charter superseded it and the British mandate ended with the partition plan in 1947

Nobody but extremists like yourself believe they have the law on their side.

Incidentally, most Palestinians are descendants of waves of conquerors and economic migrants following the capital the Jews brought into their mandate, so again why that means they have a better claim than the Jews to mandatory lands that they never lived on and which are vacant to this day is beyond me, unless the issue here is that one side are Jews.

You should stop reading Joan Peters , she's been completely exposed as a fraud

Playing the antisemite card already ?

Please :roll:
 
Lol. I've always found this one funny.

Please explain how and why Israeli communities along the seam line preclude the functioning of a Palestinian state assuming that the Palestinians could muster the competent governance, institutions and social fabric necessary to sustain one.

And to skip a few steps, since there is no reason why Israel couldn't remove communities that would actually have an impact on the functionality of a Palestinian state, pointing to tiny little Jewish communities in the interior of the WB isn't actually an argument and does not even remotely address the question of why Israeli communities along the seam line would have any impact or why these other communities preclude any sort of two-state solution?

Finally, why in the world would you blame the unworkability of a two-state solution on Israel, rather than the Palestinians, the very core of their national identity being the objective of destroying Israel. As long as that remains the core element of their identity any sort of peace is impossible, and they have only worked to reinforce that while the international community sticks their collective fingers in their ears and refuses to acknowledge reality.

Anti Arab racism at the start duly noted.

When you look at the most recent maps of what any future Palestinian state might look like it becomes apparent that it isn't a contiguous state and thus it's viability is virtually zero. It's the creation of Palestinian Bantustans to accommodate illegal Jewish settlement.

Why do I put more blame on the Israelis for the lack of a two state solution resolution to the conflict ? Two reasons

a. That they decided to illegally occupy and illegally settle someone elses territory . They didn't have to build settlements did they ?

b Because for as long as the UN have been voting on the two state solution Israel has voted against it and it's only the US veto that has stymied the overwhelming international support for it

The more you brutalise and violate a people the more they will react in extreme ways. Maybe the international community and most sensible people understand this
 
The de facto Israeli annexation of Jerusalem isn't recognized by anyone. Everybody has East Jerusalem down as Occupied Palestinian territory ( OPT ) , true ? It was occupied by Israel , illegally , after the Geneva Convention and thus the territory is OPT .

Occupied from whom? If you want to do the legal thing then argue using law. Saying "The Geneva Convention" doesn't do it.

That's right it wasn't ceded to the Palestinians under the partition but neither was it ceded to the Israeli state. It was to be under international control that was to allow all religious groups access to it. Jordan occupied it before the 1948 Geneva convention and thus , just like the Palestinian territory the Israelis conquered prior to the convention , is not covered by it. 1967 onwards is different because the convention applies

Except it doesn't as recognized by the security counsel which did not require Israel to return all of the territories acquired and because Jordan never had a valud claim to the territory.

Sorry but you are out in the extremities of legal opinion here. Just about everyone/organisation recognises the applicability of the GC to the conflict and they all state that the WB and EJ are Occupied Palestinian Territory.

Sorry, but "International Law" is a sham anyways, so the reality that some imaginary consensus of partisans concocts some position that applies to Israel (which funnily enough doesn't apply anywhere else) isn't really a compelling argument to move to indefensible armistice lines that the parties expressly noted were not international borders. You're forgetting that point too, no? The cease fire lines between Israel and Egypt/Jordan were not borders, as expressly required by the Arabs.
The " mandate " you are referring to was just the powerful colonialists seeking to justify their colonialism. The world, and the laws , have moved on a bit since then. Thankfully

Sure, if you say so. Because the Ottomans were not colonialists, right? In any event, if you look at actual demographics the influx of Jews resulted in massive inflows of non-resident Arabs, who are now Palestinians.

The UN charter superseded it and the British mandate ended with the partition plan in 1947

Nope. UN took over the mandate. partition plan was a non-binding vote by the general assembly, which you probably know has no law making power. And of course the Arab invasion to annihilate Israel may not have been in the spirit of that resolution...

Nobody but extremists like yourself believe they have the law on their side.

1. I'm not an extremist, but appreciate the ad hom.

2. You believe you have the law on your side.

So by your "logical" statement above, who is the extremist?

You should stop reading Joan Peters , she's been completely exposed as a fraud

Except I wasn't reading her.

Playing the antisemite card already ?

Sure. Funny thing is that the "rules" seem to be applied in a particular way to Israel and a different way to everyone else. We see it time and time again and this is no exception.
 
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Anti Arab racism at the start duly noted.

Yes, reality is racist, I know.

What makes you think that Palestinian society, institutions and history of governance suggests that they are capable of organizing and running a state with any semblance of democratic principles or any interest in the people and what do you think is the likelihood of that being sustained.

And why.

Cause reasoning is an important element in being able to formulate international policy.

When you look at the most recent maps of what any future Palestinian state might look like it becomes apparent that it isn't a contiguous state and thus it's viability is virtually zero. It's the creation of Palestinian Bantustans to accommodate illegal Jewish settlement.

Right. Based on propaganda. of course, that's not what was proposed at Taba and there is no reason it would have to be like that so therefore the settlements are not actually a barrier.

This isn't hard. They are an excuse, not a reason. The reason there is no peace is because the Palestinians refuse to give up their battle against the Jews.

Why do I put more blame on the Israelis for the lack of a two state solution resolution to the conflict ? Two reasons

a. That they decided to illegally occupy and illegally settle someone elses territory . They didn't have to build settlements did they ?

b Because for as long as the UN have been voting on the two state solution Israel has voted against it and it's only the US veto that has stymied the overwhelming international support for it

Whose territory? The Jordanians? No one recognized their claim. Settlements on the seam line and Jordan valley are strategic imperatives. Hebron was ethnically cleansed of Jews in the 1920s. And Jerusalem has been the centre of Jewish reality for thousands of years.

Re b, that's not a reason to blame the Jews. The occupation would not have happened had the Arabs not tried to destroy Israel, and would not have happened if Jordan had not attacked Israel. Israel offered ALL of the territories back and got the "3 No" response in return. So sure, blame the Jews for defending themselves and then building a future rather than those who have opposed peace at every turn because it wouldn't allow them to drive the Jews into the sea.

The more you brutalise and violate a people the more they will react in extreme ways. Maybe the international community and most sensible people understand this


Yes, which clearly explains how extremist those Japanese are. Oh wait....

For there to be peace here the Arabs need to lose and accept that loss. We are starting to see that movement elsewhere, but the Palestinians have yet to internalize it. Once they accept they have lost they can move on from the core of their national identity - the destruction of Israel - to something mroe productive like building a better future for themselves and their children (you know, no cult of death stuff). Once that happens, and only once that happens, is peace possible. Folks like you, unfortunately, advocate for policies that push that prospect backwards rather than moving it forwards. Which is why we are still here notwithstanding the Palestinians were offered independence 15 years ago.
 
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The terrorist attacks today are a response to an illegal occupation and illegal settlement programme that goes back 50 odd years and is a flagrant violation of international law.
Whatever drives the terrorists, it isn't that. Israel has been offering up that land for decades. All they asked for in return was peace.


People shouldn't be talking about the validity of new settlements , they should be talking about an Israeli return to its own territories ( as per the law )
Israel is only required to withdraw from territory if they get peace for exchange for it.


and the handing over of the settler houses to Palestinians as a means of going some way to compensate them for 50 years of torment , abuses and mass murder
No such obligation is owed to anyone. If a peace deal were ever reached though, the Palestinians would likely get a lot of financial aid from the EU.


Are all of the settlements illegal under international law ?
It depends. Israel would be required to withdraw settlements from land that they hand over to the Palestinians as part of a peace agreement. They would not be required to withdraw settlements from land that they keep because of land swaps.


Isn't it true to say that Israel , even in peace agreement talks , still wants to hang on to territory it acquired through warfare , which is illegal ?
If both sides agree to land swaps, that would not be illegal.


And it's also fair to say that , despite your not mentioning it , Israel will also want to keep hold of East Jerusalem which it illegally occupies.
That would not be even remotely fair. Israel has for decades been offering the Palestinians East Jerusalem as their capital.

If East Jerusalem remains in Israeli hands in the future, it will only be because no peace deal was ever agreed to.


It will also reject any right of return for Palestinians.
A right of return is incompatible with a two-state solution.


When you look at the most recent maps of what any future Palestinian state might look like it becomes apparent that it isn't a contiguous state and thus it's viability is virtually zero. It's the creation of Palestinian Bantustans to accommodate illegal Jewish settlement.
The Palestinians have for decades been offered a state that was both viable and contiguous. The only way the Palestinians are going to end up with a non-contiguous state is if no peace deal is ever agreed to.


Why do I put more blame on the Israelis for the lack of a two state solution resolution to the conflict ? Two reasons
a. That they decided to illegally occupy and illegally settle someone elses territory . They didn't have to build settlements did they ?
Settlements are no barrier to a two state solution. If a peace deal is ever agreed to and the border is drawn so that a settlement is on the Palestinian side of the border, that settlement will simply be withdrawn. Look at the way settlements were withdrawn from the Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula when Israel gave up that land.


b Because for as long as the UN have been voting on the two state solution Israel has voted against it and it's only the US veto that has stymied the overwhelming international support for it
I'm not sure what you are talking about here. UN votes have nothing to do with the two-state solution. The two-state solution is supposed to come from peaceful negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians.

The votes that the UN casts and the US vetoes are outrageously unfair attacks against Israel. If anything, those UN votes are anti-peace.
 
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