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How to fix the problem in Israel and Palestine

ido_ said:
1. the wall (which is in most areas a fence) is for security purposes and is mostly along the 67 border
2. Jerusalem was divided in 67, what exactly is your problem there, the Palestinian 2 state solution is all about dividing Jerusalem. Also, in east Jerusalem, all Palestinians have been given resident status and may apply for citizenship if they want to, their status is not relevant to your original op where you speak of rights and equality.
3. Israel is not building new settlements, Israel is building within the borders of existing settlements and in the past 2 years Israel even stopped building in existing settlements, the situation is so absurd that the government didn't even allow a permit to build handicap ramp for a soldier who was seriously wounded in the last campaign in Gaza.

You were speaking about autonomy for the Palestinians in their territory, I don't understand how any of these are arguments you mentioned are relevant to the fact this is the present situation in the west bank since the Oslo accords.
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I guess that is a step of progress but the Israeli government still needs to prohibit businesses from discriminating against palastinians (or jews if they're palestinian) with something similar to the civil rights act in the US.
 
Chagos said:
Syria virtually owned Lebanon not all that long ago (having practically taken it over).
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indeed, hezbollah has recieved much endorsement from the Assad regime and occupies much more of lebannon before the 2006 lebannon war
 
Masterhawk said:
indeed, hezbollah has recieved much endorsement from the Assad regime and occupies much more of lebannon before the 2006 lebannon war
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It doesn't occupy anything. It doesn't need to occupy anything, Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government, it has and always had specific areas where its influence is great among the people like South Lebanon and the Beqaa valley in the east, but it can operate wherever the hell it wishes to in Lebanon. It's in Syria that it can be said they "occupy" territories, and then again it's not them it's their operators, the Iranians.
 
Masterhawk said:
I guess that is a step of progress but the Israeli government still needs to prohibit businesses from discriminating against palastinians (or jews if they're palestinian) with something similar to the civil rights act in the US.
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What on earth are you talking about??? [emoji15]

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
ido_ said:
What on earth are you talking about??? [emoji15]

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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I mean like prohibiting businesses from refusing service or hiring based on religion or race.
 
Masterhawk said:
I mean like prohibiting businesses from refusing service or hiring based on religion or race.
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I understood what you meant. I dont understand why, or where do you get your information from. First you bring up a solution which is the present day situation.
Then you bring up anti discrimination laws which exist for a long time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohi..._of_Entertainment_and_Public_Places_Law,_2000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_(Equal_Opportunities)_Law,_1988

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
The brutal fact is that no diplomacy is necessary, when one side is strong enough to destroy the other easily. Three or four atomic bombs would solve the whole problem very nicely, once and for all, in about ten minutes. It is only because Israel is nothing like the demonic, aggressive entity Palestinian Arabs never tire of portraying it as that those Arabs do not need to fear being subjected to that solution. Even so, in all its negotiations with these Jew-hating primitives, Israel should never let them forget just how big a hammer it holds over their heads. Nor should it ever let them feel entirely sure it would not drop it on them, if provoked far enough.
 
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matchlight said:
The brutal fact is that no diplomacy is necessary, when one side is strong enough to destroy the other easily. Three or four atomic bombs would solve the whole problem very nicely, once and for all, in about ten minutes. It is only because Israel is nothing like the demonic, aggressive entity Palestinian Arabs never tire of portraying it as that those Arabs do not need to fear being subjected to that solution. Even so, in all its negotiations with these Jew-hating primitives, Israel should never let them forget just how big a hammer it holds over their heads. Nor should it ever let them feel entirely sure it would not drop it on them, if provoked far enough.
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russia is powerful enough to take georgia , ukraine, and the baltics and china can easily take taiwan

"but those actions would result in international outcry" you might say but the same would happen if Israel straight up annexed the gaza strip and the west bank without provocation.

I'm mainly referring to Israeli discrimination against palestinians rather than imperialism
 
Masterhawk said:
russia is powerful enough to take georgia , ukraine, and the baltics and china can easily take taiwan

"but those actions would result in international outcry" you might say but the same would happen if Israel straight up annexed the gaza strip and the west bank without provocation.

I'm mainly referring to Israeli discrimination against palestinians rather than imperialism
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The Palestinians had two courses of action at partition. Accept the fact and get on with rebuilding or continue a tribal grudge eons old. They chose the latter and have been playing the victim card ever since. Consequently, as the result of unending attacks on Israel they have invited defensive reprises. They are getting the snot kicked out of them and rightfully so. Their own people have killed far more of their civilians than the total of any Israeli attack whether defensive of offensive. Every time there has been a ceasefire it has been the Palestinians who have broken it. If they stop that, things will change.

Since the land is arable, since the Palestinians have shown no interest in tilling it and since they have invited warfare to their lands, then there is no good reason the conquerors should not make use of it.

Should the Palestinian people develop the good sense to rid themselves of the mindless jihadists among them, they might very well benefit from having those lands bearing grass and grains. As it is now, their land bears only a bitter fruit.
 
Realitywins said:
The Palestinians had two courses of action at partition. Accept the fact and get on with rebuilding or continue a tribal grudge eons old. They chose the latter and have been playing the victim card ever since. Consequently, as the result of unending attacks on Israel they have invited defensive reprises. They are getting the snot kicked out of them and rightfully so. Their own people have killed far more of their civilians than the total of any Israeli attack whether defensive of offensive. Every time there has been a ceasefire it has been the Palestinians who have broken it. If they stop that, things will change.

Since the land is arable, since the Palestinians have shown no interest in tilling it and since they have invited warfare to their lands, then there is no good reason the conquerors should not make use of it.

Should the Palestinian people develop the good sense to rid themselves of the mindless jihadists among them, they might very well benefit from having those lands bearing grass and grains. As it is now, their land bears only a bitter fruit.
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while indeed some palestinians are terrorists, most of them are protesting
 
Masterhawk said:
while indeed some palestinians are terrorists, most of them are protesting
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Well, the terrorists are running the show. If the "protesters" were serious they'd have the AK 47's and be running the Jihadists out of town-preferably in coffins-then petitioning Israel very politely for peace.
 
Realitywins said:
Well, the terrorists are running the show. If the "protesters" were serious they'd have the AK 47's and be running the Jihadists out of town-preferably in coffins-then petitioning Israel very politely for peace.
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it is true that Hamas holds a majority in the Palestinian legislature. The previous elections were held on january 20 2006 (over 10 years ago) and have been delayed ever since: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_general_election

Here's some interesting stuff here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah–Hamas_reconciliation_process

Here's the very interesting part in case you're too lazy to click on the link
Following the talks Fatah officials have threatened to retake Gaza by force. Hamas affiliated website, the Palestinian Information Center reported on 25 February that Fatah plan to retake Gaza with force by inciting an Israeli military operation and convincing Egypt to destroy the tunnels between the Gaza Strip and Egypt to further isolate the Gaza Strip and limit its military abilities which rely in foreign aid. -Wikipedia
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Masterhawk said:
it is true that Hamas holds a majority in the Palestinian legislature. The previous elections were held on january 20 2006 (over 10 years ago) and have been delayed ever since: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_general_election

Here's some interesting stuff here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah–Hamas_reconciliation_process

Here's the very interesting part in case you're too lazy to click on the link
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Interesting. One wonders how Hamas could agree to a peace agreement with Israel without, at the same time, recognizing Israel?
 
Masterhawk said:
but israel is building a wall along the west bank and divides Jerusalem. They are also building settlements and although they are illegal under international law, the UN has done nothing
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The Security Fence does not divide Jerusalem. Once the Security Fence is completed, the entire Greater Jerusalem area will be on the Israeli side of the Fence.

There is nothing for the UN to do about the settlements. The only way to stop the settlements is for the Palestinian government to peacefully negotiate a two-state solution with Israel.
 
Re: How to fix the problem in Israel and Palestine

There was a new proposal unveiled earlier this year for actions that Israel could take to protect themselves in the short term while leaving the possibility of negotiations open in the future:

Two-State Security - A Project By Israel Policy Forum


The proposal was outlined in these two PDFs:

http://www.twostatesecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Security-First-CIS.pdf

http://www.twostatesecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/CNAS-Report.pdf


One of the things proposed was to finish building the Security Fence, including in the areas where people currently pressure Israel not to finish it, and to then declare it as their official border. Afterwards settlement construction would continue only on the Israeli side of the Fence. And that new construction would be primarily high-rise apartments to make the settlements as dense as possible (to minimize the necessary land swap if the Palestinian government ever got serious about negotiating).

Under the plan Israel would retain military control over Areas B and C on the Palestinian side of the Fence. This would give the Palestinian government an incentive to negotiate (presumably the Palestinian government will not want to be confined to Area A alone in perpetuity).

One part of the plan that I didn't like was the idea of having American soldiers patrol the Jordan River. I'd suggest instead having Israeli soldiers continue to do it. Or if the Palestinian government is agreeable, joint Israeli/Palestinian patrols.


Presumably if there were never a negotiated peace, as the centuries went by Israel would end up with the Security Fence as their permanent border, getting to keep all land west of the Fence, which would gradually fill with high rise apartments. East of the Fence, Area C would become a no-mans-land under Israel military control as the settlements died out in this area, Area B would remain a Palestinian area under Israeli military control, and Area A would become the de-facto Palestinian state.

On the other hand if negotiations ever result in a peace agreement, all that is out the window. The final outcome in that case would be whatever the negotiators agreed to.
 
Toggle Almendro said:
Re: How to fix the problem in Israel and Palestine

There was a new proposal unveiled earlier this year for actions that Israel could take to protect themselves in the short term while leaving the possibility of negotiations open in the future:

Two-State Security - A Project By Israel Policy Forum


The proposal was outlined in these two PDFs:

http://www.twostatesecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Security-First-CIS.pdf

http://www.twostatesecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/CNAS-Report.pdf


One of the things proposed was to finish building the Security Fence, including in the areas where people currently pressure Israel not to finish it, and to then declare it as their official border. Afterwards settlement construction would continue only on the Israeli side of the Fence. And that new construction would be primarily high-rise apartments to make the settlements as dense as possible (to minimize the necessary land swap if the Palestinian government ever got serious about negotiating).

Under the plan Israel would retain military control over Areas B and C on the Palestinian side of the Fence. This would give the Palestinian government an incentive to negotiate (presumably the Palestinian government will not want to be confined to Area A alone in perpetuity).

One part of the plan that I didn't like was the idea of having American soldiers patrol the Jordan River. I'd suggest instead having Israeli soldiers continue to do it. Or if the Palestinian government is agreeable, joint Israeli/Palestinian patrols.


Presumably if there were never a negotiated peace, as the centuries went by Israel would end up with the Security Fence as their permanent border, getting to keep all land west of the Fence, which would gradually fill with high rise apartments. East of the Fence, Area C would become a no-mans-land under Israel military control as the settlements died out in this area, Area B would remain a Palestinian area under Israeli military control, and Area A would become the de-facto Palestinian state.

On the other hand if negotiations ever result in a peace agreement, all that is out the window. The final outcome in that case would be whatever the negotiators agreed to.
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If palestine became its own state, it would descend into civil war within a year. There's a division between hamas and fatah and the latter isn't the most stable government. If it happens before isis bites the dust, they will absolutely seize the opportunity to expand their influence in the west bank. Even if isis vanishes beforehand, we could see palestine become the next libya with one or both sides favoring some form of shariah law.

Personally, I think that a one state solution where hebrews and arabs are treated as equals and are under the same government would be much better.
 
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