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Israel/Palestinian Two State Solution[W:3]

Yeah, cause clearly the decisions Israel has made over the last half century have prevented Palestinian attacks.

It has certainly worked better than the alternative of giving them a better platform to murder people in their war to destroy Israel.

Incidentally, let's unpack this a bit. You presumably don't know, but the vulnerability of Israeli civilians to attacks and being murdered went up SUBSTANTIALLY following the Oslo accords and giving Arafat a platform in the WB and Gaza to pursue his objective of destroying Israel. Things were much better when the PLO were kept further afield and Israel maintained control over the WB and Gaza.

So if you are looking at "over the last 50 years", understanding that the goal of the Palestinians has ALWAYS been to destroy Israel (recall that the PLO was formed in 1964 with that explicit purpose and renounced all claims to the WB and Gaza, targeting only Israel with an intent to drive the Jews into the sea), look at the series of events the Israelis had to put up with in the 1940s, 50s and 60s, compare that to the period between the 67 war and Oslo and then look at things since, and actually the best position Israel was in for that entire period was during the period when they tied their enemies' hands and limited their ability to undertake attacks in pursuit of their objectives which have never changed.

So what does that tell us about "preventing attacks"?

In any event, if you are suggesting the best way to prevent attacks is to do nothing and let them happen, or to give them better tools to attack you further in the future, then we have bigger issues.
 
Please be specific. Hamas fires five rockets from hospitals and schools in Hamas-controlled territory. Specifically, what is the minimum response necessary?
Whatever would be necessary to cease the rocket fire, but if leveling the school or hospital is all you got then you need to improve your tactics.
 
Whatever would be necessary to cease the rocket fire, but if leveling the school or hospital is all you got then you need to improve your tactics.

I asked for specifics. Imagine you're an Israeli commander. People in Hamas-controlled territory are firing rockets from schools and hospitals at Jewish civilian territory. You order your forces to....
 
I asked for specifics. Imagine you're an Israeli commander. People in Hamas-controlled territory are firing rockets from schools and hospitals at Jewish civilian territory. You order your forces to....

It would depend heavily on the range, and whether or not they are even hitting anything.
 
Will there ever be a two state solution? What are your predictions regarding where relations will be at in 5, 10, 15, 20 years, etc?

As a liberal, I find myself in the small group on my side of the aisle that considers themselves "Zionists" in that we support the political aims of the Israeli government. Bill Maher is another leftist Israel supporter who could arguably be labeled a Zionist.

I do not believe a two-state solution is possible. Israel has a land mass roughly the size of Rhode Island with a population that increases each year, just like every other country. There is only so much land available with what they have now to build new housing developments and economic developments, and therefore the practice of building on the Gaza Strip and other areas will only continue. There's just no getting around this.

And as a result, the violence from the Palestinian side (arguably justifiable) will continue.

I don't know what the solution is. I know Israel has a right to exist, and I know the pre-1967 borders are unrealistic and will never happen, no matter how hard the world fights for this. Palestine will continue to stay poor and overcrowded, and violent. I think that the neighboring states could consider absorbing the Palestinian people, which I also know will never happen.

One thing I do know for sure, is that violence will continue to happen and more than likely get worse and worse. And I'll continue to support Israel's right to defend itself by using disproportionate response to annihilate Hamas.

The Palestinians will never accept a two state solution. It's something they have made crystal clear on multiple occasions.
If the other nations in that area were serious about a Pal. state, then Jordan and Syria could each give up a piece of their land (as Israel already has), and then use oil revenues from Arab League nations to support the Pal. nation until it could become self-sustaining. It's a solution that is so simple and effective that not doing it can only point to an intentional choice to not do this. The historical Pal. homeland included a large chunk of both Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, but none of them are being pressured to give up their lands.
 
It would depend heavily on the range, and whether or not they are even hitting anything.

The range is long enough to hit civilian targets and the rockets are, in fact, hitting them.

Just so I plan my day accordingly, how long do you intend to dodge and evade the question?
 
I know. hard to have discussions based on facts when all you want to do is push propaganda. Must be very difficult for you.

Hamas Charter: The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

My Reply:

But have a look at article 1(b) of the constitution of the Likud

The Likud Charter Does Not Recognize Palestine

Article 2: General purposes

"1. The Likud is a national-liberal party which advocates the ingathering of the exiles, the integrity of the Jewish homeland, human freedom and social justice, and it strives to achieve these goals:

[…]

b. Safeguarding the right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel as an eternal, inalienable right, working diligently to settle and develop all parts of the land of Israel, and extending national sovereignty to them."

Palestinian National Covenant
The PLO Charter as amended in 1968 also called for the destruction of Israel, they did get around to changing it until 1998. This, however, was not seen as an obstacle to the negotiation of The Oslo Accords in 1993.
From Wikipedia
Palestinian National Covenant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"AMY GOODMAN: But you hear repeatedly, Hamas has in its charter a call for the destruction of Israel. And how do you guarantee that these thousands of rockets that threaten the people of Israel don’t continue?"
"NOAM CHOMSKY: Very simple. First of all, Hamas charter means practically nothing. The only people who pay attention to it are Israeli propagandists, who love it. It was a charter put together by a small group of people under siege, under attack in 1988. And it’s essentially meaningless. There are charters that mean something, but they’re not talked about. So, for example, the electoral program of Israel’s governing party, Likud, states explicitly that there can never be a Palestinian state west of the Jordan River. And they not only state it in their charter, that’s a call for the destruction of Palestine, explicit call for it. And they don’t only have it in their charter, you know, their electoral program, but they implement it. That’s quite different from the Hamas charter."
--Democracy Now, Noam Chomsky: Israel’s Actions in Palestine are "Much Worse Than Apartheid" in South Africa, August 07, 2014--
Noam Chomsky: Israel's Actions in Palestine are "Much Worse Than Apartheid" in South Africa | Democracy Now!

"A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on."
--Benny Morris--

In other words, when Jews target and kill innocent civilians to advance their national struggle, they are patriots. When their adversaries do so, they are terrorists.

Calm
 
"Israel “aided Hamas directly — the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO,” said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

Israel’s support for Hamas “was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,” said a former senior CIA official.

According to documents obtained from the Israel-based Institute for Counter Terrorism (ICT) by UPI, Hamas evolved from cells of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928. Islamic movements in Israel and Palestine were “weak and dormant” until after the 1967 Six Day War in which Israel scored a stunning victory over its Arab enemies."

Analysis: Hamas history tied to Israel - UPI.com
 
Palestine and Zioinism The Whole Truth
By Alan Hart
April 20, 2016

"The FIRST is the assertion that all the Jews of the world have a right to Palestine. That is complete nonsense.

The truth is that very, very few Jews have any biological/ancestral connection the ancient Hebrews. The Jews are peoples (not a people) from many different homelands; and back in time many converted to Judaism long after the relatively brief rule of the ancient Hebrews, the Israelites. What I am saying boils down to this. The notion that there are two peoples with a valid claim to Palestine is rubbish. (There is even a case for believing that more Arabs than Jews may be descendants of the ancient Hebrews).

Zionism’s SECOND biggest propaganda lie is in its assertion that poor little Israel has lived in a danger of annihilation, the “driving into the sea of its Jews”. As I document in detail through the three volumes of my book, the truth is that Israel’ existence has never, ever, been in danger from any combination of Arab force. Not in 1948. Not in 1967. And not even in 1973.

In 1948 when elements of five Arab armies crossed into Palestine their intention was not to destroy the unilaterally declared state of Israel, It was to prevent Israel taking the territory that had been assigned to the Palestinians for a state of their own by the Partition Plan.

There are incidentally three things about the Partition Plan that many Westerners are not aware of.

The first is that UN had no right to assign any part of Palestine to incoming alien Jewish immigrants without the consent of the Palestinian people.

The second is that the Partition Plan would never have been approved if Zionism, assisted by 26 American senators and White House insiders, had not bullied and bribed a number of nations to change their “No” votes to “Yes” and/or abstain. When President Truman learned of Zionism’s campaign of intimidation and threats to bend the UN to its will, he wrote in a memorandum that it was perfectly clear that “pressure groups will succeed in putting the United Nations out of business if this sort of thing is continued.”

The third is that the Partition Plan was vitiated, became invalid, because Truman was not prepared to use force to impose it. When he decided against the use of force he ordered his diplomats to return to the UN and continue discussions about how to solve the Palestine problem. It was while those discussions were continuing in the General Assembly that Israel unilaterally declared itself to be in existence, in defiance of the will of the organized international community as it then was.

As to the actual fighting in 1948 here is the key to complete understanding. Early on there was a month long truce. When the fighting resumed it was 20,000 Arab soldiers, poorly trained and equipped, lacking motivation and badly led, against 80,000 Israeli forces, well trained and equipped, highly motivated and well led. As David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister knew, there was always only going to be one winner on the battlefield."

Palestine and Zioinism The Whole Truth - Alan Hart
 
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