You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.......

Serenity · Jul 3, 2014

The right of return, mutual recognition, control of Jerusalem, settlements, borders, hateful acts, hateful people, the peace process, i just can't do it today. The issues will still be there tomorrow.

For today at least, i'm taking a step back and focusing on the positives.

Yoni Jesner was a 19-year old student who held dreams of becoming a Doctor in Israel one day. He was killed in a suicide bombing on a bus in Tel Aviv in 2002. One of his kidneys were donated to a little 7 year old year girl born with kidney failure. She was Palestinian, from East Jerusalem.

Here is Yoni's Mother, remembering Yoni and his legacy left behind.

Ahmed Khatib was a 12 year old Palestinian boy who was killed in the West Bank city of Jenin by Israeli soldiers who mistook his toy gun for the real thing. It was a tragic accident. Ahmed's parents consented to donating their son's organs. His heart went to Sameh, a Druze girl in Pklin; a kidney went to Mohamed, a Bedouin boy in the Negev; and one kidney went to Menuha Rivka, an Orthodox Jewish girl in Jerusalem. The video i have linked to "Heart of Jenin" recounts the events and the transplant, and then follows the boy’s father, Ismael Khatib, as he journeys to visit three of the children that received his son’s organs

There are countless stories like this to be told.

Palestinian Heart Saves Dying Israeli - ABC News

IDF doctor saves life of Palestinian baby - Israel News, Ynetnews

Jewish kidney donation saves Palestinian boy | JPost | Israel News

Serenity · May 16, 2018

So it's nearly four years since I posted this OP. It was just as Operation Protective Edge was being launched in 2014 after serious escalations in hostilities.

Here we are again. The song remains the same. I can't stomach the same old same old arguments for years on end. You can talk till you're blue in the face, nothing changes, no matter how many positive stories there are out there.

I'm far from old and I'll likely never see peace between the Israelis and Palestinians in my lifetime.

That's the reality and it's a crying shame.

ido_ · May 16, 2018

Serenity said:
So it's nearly four years since I posted this OP. It was just as Operation Protective Edge was being launched in 2014 after serious escalations in hostilities.

Here we are again. The song remains the same. I can't stomach the same old same old arguments for years on end. You can talk till you're blue in the face, nothing changes, no matter how many positive stories there are out there.

I'm far from old and I'll likely never see peace between the Israelis and Palestinians in my lifetime.

That's the reality and it's a crying shame.

What exactly are you crying about?

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<alt>doxygen · May 16, 2018

Serenity said:
So it's nearly four years since I posted this OP. It was just as Operation Protective Edge was being launched in 2014 after serious escalations in hostilities.

Here we are again. The song remains the same. I can't stomach the same old same old arguments for years on end. You can talk till you're blue in the face, nothing changes, no matter how many positive stories there are out there.

I'm far from old and I'll likely never see peace between the Israelis and Palestinians in my lifetime.

That's the reality and it's a crying shame.

The folks on both sides who have the money, political power and weapons don't want peace. They want the other side gone. You can't convince a religious zealot to negotiate, since they believe their opinions are straight from God.

ALTOY459 · May 16, 2018

<alt>doxygen said:
The folks on both sides who have the money, political power and weapons don't want peace. They want the other side gone. You can't convince a religious zealot to negotiate, since they believe their opinions are straight from God.

If you REALLY think that this is about just God you must be deluded. God is obviously a front for the real motivations, which is the extermination of the Palestinian people, land, and power/money.

<alt>doxygen · May 16, 2018

ALTOY459 said:
If you REALLY think that this is about just God you must be deluded. God is obviously a front for the real motivations, which is the extermination of the Palestinian people, land, and power/money.

Most of the millions of people in the U.S. that support the Israeli expansionist policies do so because they see it as a step towards the end-times, which they can't wait to happen. IOW, because : God. I doubt many care about the people much at all. In their book, 66% of the Jews will also die and go to hell.

You are probably referring to Bibi and his ilk. They do want the land. Because they believe God gave it to them.

oneworld2 · May 16, 2018

ido_ said:
What exactly are you crying about?

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I thought it was completely and understandably obvious

Serenity · May 16, 2018

ido_ said:
What exactly are you crying about?

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I said that it's a crying shame that I'll likely never see peace between the Israelis and Palestinians in my lifetime. Hardly a unreasonable position to hold. That's what most reasonable people would wish for.

Lutherf · May 16, 2018

Serenity said:
I said that it's a crying shame that I'll likely never see peace between the Israelis and Palestinians in my lifetime. Hardly a unreasonable position to hold. That's what most reasonable people would wish for.

The region has a rather checkered past amongst its various residents going back far more than a lifetime. If I remember correctly, when Abraham buried Sarah in Hebron that was about the last time the area saw sustained peace.

oneworld2 · May 17, 2018

Lutherf said:
The region has a rather checkered past amongst its various residents going back far more than a lifetime. If I remember correctly, when Abraham buried Sarah in Hebron that was about the last time the area saw sustained peace.

Everywhere humans have been has a " checkered past " when it comes to violence , wars , atrocities.............. the best way forward when it comes to trying to understand this conflict or any other conflict , is to let your point of departure be as objective as it can possibly be.

Understanding and reminding yourself that all peoples histories will have wars , conquests , crimes and just plain ugliness , is a basic part of that process imo

oneworld2 · May 17, 2018

ALTOY459 said:
If you REALLY think that this is about just God you must be deluded. God is obviously a front for the real motivations, which is the extermination of the Palestinian people, land, and power/money.

The founding fathers of Zionism , or at least a lot of them , were lefty type secular nationalists with no belief in God. I think the religious support came more from Christian elements in Europe and the US for the reason given by alt doxygen which is scary.

I agree that this is a nationalist conflict.

Religion has it's part to play for both sides but that shouldn't distract us from what is a nationalist struggle between two peoples of different religions . I agree to that power and money , as ever , are a big part of it all too

truthatallcost · May 18, 2018

oneworld2 said:
The founding fathers of Zionism , or at least a lot of them , were lefty type secular nationalists with no belief in God. I think the religious support came more from Christian elements in Europe and the US for the reason given by alt doxygen which is scary.

I agree that this is a nationalist conflict.

Religion has it's part to play for both sides but that shouldn't distract us from what is a nationalist struggle between two peoples of different religions . I agree to that power and money , as ever , are a big part of it all too

It would be great if someone could find a way to convince American evangelicals of that. I was raised by parents who believed that honoring the Jews in Israel was the right thing to do. They were just believing what they'd been told by Christian pastors, without really delving into the issue too much. I've obviously parted ways with them on that issue, as I know how religious Jews in Israel view American Christians, which is unflattering to say the least.

oneworld2 · May 18, 2018

truthatallcost said:
It would be great if someone could find a way to convince American evangelicals of that. .

The information is out there for those who wish to seek it , I just think that the Christian fundamentalists that are longing for the day when God will slappeth us all down won't be inclined to look.

Infinite Chaos · May 18, 2018

Serenity said:
~ I'm far from old and I'll likely never see peace between the Israelis and Palestinians in my lifetime ~

Many felt the troubles in Northern Ireland would never end or peace come about.

Ordinary people led by leaders whose main goal is to retain or build power eventually had the chance of economic prosperity. Those leaders influencing ME politics unfortunately are found far beyond the ME.

If a way to peace and prosperity for most can be found, the hounds of war & conflict who currently lead or are found in power won't be listened to anymore.

CJ 2.0 · May 18, 2018

Infinite Chaos said:
Many felt the troubles in Northern Ireland would never end or peace come about.

Ordinary people led by leaders whose main goal is to retain or build power eventually had the chance of economic prosperity. Those leaders influencing ME politics unfortunately are found far beyond the ME.

If a way to peace and prosperity for most can be found, the hounds of war & conflict who currently lead or are found in power won't be listened to anymore.

The catholics in Northern Ireland never wanted to conquer England and throw out the English. The entire Irish identity wasn’t built around denial of the self-determination of the English.

As similar as it might seem, the core identity of the Palestinians and their unwillingness to assess and change their core objectives makes peace impossible. While it could be changed, the world doesn’t really want that and the Europeans in particular are dumping hundreds of millions of dollars into the Palestinian “cause” to prevent that from happening.

So yeah, it’s possible, but it depends on a whole bunch of things which don’t seem very likely.

The Oslo process was based on the illusion that the Palestinians were actually interested in ending the conflict. They never were.

But our best hope seems to be that the Arab world doesn’t actually support the Palestinians and seems willing to abandon them. Ironically that is the best hope for the Palestinians cause only when they despair of their objective can there be any actual hope

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Infinite Chaos · May 19, 2018

CJ 2.0 said:
The catholics in Northern Ireland never wanted to conquer England and throw out the English. The entire Irish identity wasn’t built around denial of the self-determination of the English.

As similar as it might seem, the core identity of the Palestinians and their unwillingness to assess and change their core objectives makes peace impossible. While it could be changed, the world doesn’t really want that and the Europeans in particular are dumping hundreds of millions of dollars into the Palestinian “cause” to prevent that from happening.

So yeah, it’s possible, but it depends on a whole bunch of things which don’t seem very likely.

The Oslo process was based on the illusion that the Palestinians were actually interested in ending the conflict. They never were.

But our best hope seems to be that the Arab world doesn’t actually support the Palestinians and seems willing to abandon them. Ironically that is the best hope for the Palestinians cause only when they despair of their objective can there be any actual hope

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Granted there are differences - Irish Catholics immigrate into the UK and do a lot of business here, they assimilate and contribute to the economy. If Brexit is an economic disaster and ruins our economy it will hit Catholic Ireland hard too.
My take os that the Palestinian leadership has repeatedly let the Palestinians down in history. Israel has offered peace many times and things could have been so different even in the last 30 years for both sides.

I'm no fan of Netanyahu - I think he's stoked up a harder view in Israel's populace but before him, there were Jewish leaders who would have compromised had there been a Palestinian leadership actually interested in peaceful coexistence.

CJ 2.0 said:
The catholics in Northern Ireland never wanted to conquer England and throw out the English.

Many wanted that in Northern Ireland - they still don't want the Protestants around.

Northern Light · May 19, 2018

Both sides are so incredibly screwed up at this point that I feel like the only way to have true peace is to take the ball away from both of them.

At some point in the future, we are going to have experiments in World Governance. I don't fully support it but it's unavoidable. The trajectory is obvious given current neo-liberal activities.

One benefit of this is that it could have the authority to turn Jerusalem into a world heritage site, totally neutral, governed by nobody. Like a suzerainty of the UN or something like that. The tribal radicals won't be happy as long as Jews run the place and the zionists are entitled to their rulership over their lands and even beyond.

When Europe created Israel they setup an ever-lasting, feuding power imbalance. The biggest mistake they made was not making Jerusalem an ungoverned, neutral zone. Even with that, they may not be satisfied because both sides want to rule... but maybe both sides could reconcile if nobody owned it.

Apocalypse · May 19, 2018

Northern Light said:
Both sides are so incredibly screwed up at this point that I feel like the only way to have true peace is to take the ball away from both of them.

At some point in the future, we are going to have experiments in World Governance. I don't fully support it but it's unavoidable. The trajectory is obvious given current neo-liberal activities.

One benefit of this is that it could have the authority to turn Jerusalem into a world heritage site, totally neutral, governed by nobody. Like a suzerainty of the UN or something like that. The tribal radicals won't be happy as long as Jews run the place and the zionists are entitled to their rulership over their lands and even beyond.

When Europe created Israel they setup an ever-lasting, feuding power imbalance. The biggest mistake they made was not making Jerusalem an ungoverned, neutral zone. Even with that, they may not be satisfied because both sides want to rule... but maybe both sides could reconcile if nobody owned it.

Europe didn't create Israel. Great Britain removed its occupation allowing its creation and the international community recognized the country but the Jewish people working towards that goal were the ones creating Israel.
Jerusalem won't stop being Israeli and become internationally governed just like Paris wouldn't stop being French and become internationally governed, how can you believe that such nonsense is even plausible?

Northern Light · May 19, 2018

Apocalypse said:
Europe didn't create Israel. Great Britain removed its occupation allowing its creation and the international community recognized the country but the Jewish people working towards that goal were the ones creating Israel.

I'm not going to get into this argument. I know the formal story of how Israel was created. It would not have survived without the acknowledgment, protection, funding, and international treaty process all supported by Europe.

Apocalypse said:
Jerusalem won't stop being Israeli and become internationally governed just like Paris wouldn't stop being French and become internationally governed, how can you believe that such nonsense is even plausible?

It will stop being Israeli when the U.S., due to its overextended global wars, can no longer afford to support it with money and high grade arms. It's the only reason why Israel can keep doing what it's doing and not face real sanctions like its neighbors.

I don't want to see more bloodshed. I'm positing a potential solution that does not involve more killing, and it neutralizes a major power imbalance that has been a cancer in the Mid-east since it started. If you think that's non-sense then oh well.

Apocalypse · May 19, 2018

Northern Light said:
I'm not going to get into this argument. I know the formal story of how Israel was created. It would not have survived without the acknowledgment, protection, funding, and international treaty process all supported by Europe.

And I'm not going to enter this survival theoretical argument (which is quite false), Israel was created by those who created it - the Jewish people.

It will stop being Israeli when the U.S., due to its overextended global wars, can no longer afford to support it with money and high grade arms. It's the only reason why Israel can keep doing what it's doing and not face real sanctions like its neighbors.

I don't want to see more bloodshed. I'm positing a potential solution that does not involve more killing, and it neutralizes a major power imbalance that has been a cancer in the Mid-east since it started. If you think that's non-sense then oh well.

No, you're doing what the Islamic extremists are doing and misleading yourself into believing that Israel could be gone or that Jerusalem could stop being Israeli. That's not going to happen just like Paris isn't going to stop being French and France itself will not be gone, the sooner we all deal with it the better.

The US aid by the way is less than 2% of Israel's GDP just to demonstrate how ridiculous your prophecy of rage is.

Infinite Chaos · May 19, 2018

Northern Light said:
~ The biggest mistake they made was not making Jerusalem an ungoverned, neutral zone. Even with that, they may not be satisfied because both sides want to rule... but maybe both sides could reconcile if nobody owned it.

Ehud Barak made huge proposals on Jerusalem over 10 years ago, Israel was spurned then. I think you really need to look at historical peace offers made by Israeli leaders to see that what you are positing has little merit. The Palestinians have had plenty of chances to have their own state but their leadership (I'm possibly being generous here) never wanted it - they just wanted an end to Israel itself.

That still seems the case, it's that view that has to change - an acceptance that Israel has a right to exist.

Northern Light · May 19, 2018

Infinite Chaos said:
Ehud Barak made huge proposals on Jerusalem over 10 years ago, Israel was spurned then. I think you really need to look at historical peace offers made by Israeli leaders to see that what you are positing has little merit. The Palestinians have had plenty of chances to have their own state but their leadership (I'm possibly being generous here) never wanted it - they just wanted an end to Israel itself.

That still seems the case, it's that view that has to change - an acceptance that Israel has a right to exist.

I'm sort of over talking about who has made the most peace attempts. Both sides have broken their vows many times. Both sides have committed some very controversial and heinous acts of violence. The Palestinians are caged inside of a diminishing space as their population is gradually downsized; the Israelis can't go about their lives without worrying about a random rocket being lobbed in front of them. The racism and xenophobia on both sides prevents any clear insight into the issues.

Neither side has the higher ground anymore. Neither side keeps their word. Neither side has a vested interest in peace.

Northern Light · May 19, 2018

Apocalypse said:
And I'm not going to enter this survival theoretical argument (which is quite false), Israel was created by those who created it - the Jewish people.

No, you're doing what the Islamic extremists are doing and misleading yourself into believing that Israel could be gone or that Jerusalem could stop being Israeli. That's not going to happen just like Paris isn't going to stop being French and France itself will not be gone, the sooner we all deal with it the better.

The US aid by the way is less than 2% of Israel's GDP just to demonstrate how ridiculous your prophecy of rage is.

Comparing me to Islamic extremists is just the type of hyperpartisan thing I have come to expect from you, Apocalypse. Ideas can't be discussed in vacuo without someone like you showing up to display extreme and unreasonable criticism because you are personally offended. You can't talk about it without making it personal, every single time. Like telling me what I feel... that I'm enraged, when actually I have zero rage. And this discussion isn't about me.

So you can stop immaturely flaming me right now by calling me ridiculous or trying to ridicule me because it won't work. I see right through you. I'm here to discuss ideas not attack you or anyone. I am neither for nor against Israel nor for or against Palestine, I am against the ongoing violence just like a lot of observers. If my explorations of the topic offend you, that's none of my business. Keep your patronizing remarks to yourself.

And really, your reactions are endemic to this whole area of politics. Americans are virtually incapable of discussing this topic rationally. Any critique of Israel, any perceived slight, and you get compared to extremists. It's boring and typical.

Infinite Chaos · May 19, 2018

Northern Light said:
~ Both sides have broken their vows many times. ~

Could you give me examples?

Northern Light · May 19, 2018

Infinite Chaos said:
Could you give me examples?

Maybe later, if I feel a renewed interest in this topic. Right now I'm a little turned off, to be honest.

Plus I'm going to bed. :2wave:

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