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What is the Russian S-400 air defense system, and why is the U.S. upset Turkey bought it?

TU Curmudgeon

TU Curmudgeon

B.A. (Sarc), LLb. (Lex Sarcasus), PhD (Sarc.)
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From The Washington Post

What is the Russian S-400 air defense system, and why is the U.S. upset Turkey bought it?
​

A Russian plane carrying the first components of the S-400 surface-to-air defense system landed in Turkey on Friday, in a move that is opposed by the Pentagon and could damage Turkey’s relationship with the United States and other NATO allies.

Washington has long warned that if Turkey were to acquire the Russian system, the United States may impose harsh economic sanctions and revoke Turkey’s participation in U.S. military programs.

Here are some key questions and answers about how the S-400 ended up in Turkey and what may come next:

[Turkey takes first shipment of Russian S-400 air-defense system in defiance of U.S. and NATO warnings]

What is the S-400 air and missile system?

It’s a Russian-made, long-range, surface-to-air defense system. The S-400 is one of Russia’s most sophisticated pieces of military equipment, with advanced surveillance radar and a suite of missiles that can closely track and target aircraft from the ground.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said he chose to go ahead with the $2.5 billion purchase from Russia because the United States did not make an adequate offer on its own Patriot air defense system. NATO has that system stationed in Turkey for its own purposes in Syria, but Turkey never purchased it from Washington. NATO officials have raised concerns that the S-400 purchase will not be compatible with other systems already in use in Turkey.

COMMENT:-

What is possibly the most compelling reason why the US doesn't want Turkey to buy the S-400 (even though that horse is already out of the barn) and intends to impose crushing economic sanctions because the government of Turkey has taken actions not sanctioned by the President of the United States of America is given in the very last paragraph of the article.
​
 
We're not putting the F-35 on a platform with Russian programming and spyware.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From The Washington Post

What is the Russian S-400 air defense system, and why is the U.S. upset Turkey bought it?
​

A Russian plane carrying the first components of the S-400 surface-to-air defense system landed in Turkey on Friday, in a move that is opposed by the Pentagon and could damage Turkey’s relationship with the United States and other NATO allies.

Washington has long warned that if Turkey were to acquire the Russian system, the United States may impose harsh economic sanctions and revoke Turkey’s participation in U.S. military programs.

Here are some key questions and answers about how the S-400 ended up in Turkey and what may come next:

[Turkey takes first shipment of Russian S-400 air-defense system in defiance of U.S. and NATO warnings]

What is the S-400 air and missile system?

It’s a Russian-made, long-range, surface-to-air defense system. The S-400 is one of Russia’s most sophisticated pieces of military equipment, with advanced surveillance radar and a suite of missiles that can closely track and target aircraft from the ground.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said he chose to go ahead with the $2.5 billion purchase from Russia because the United States did not make an adequate offer on its own Patriot air defense system. NATO has that system stationed in Turkey for its own purposes in Syria, but Turkey never purchased it from Washington. NATO officials have raised concerns that the S-400 purchase will not be compatible with other systems already in use in Turkey.

COMMENT:-

What is possibly the most compelling reason why the US doesn't want Turkey to buy the S-400 (even though that horse is already out of the barn) and intends to impose crushing economic sanctions because the government of Turkey has taken actions not sanctioned by the President of the United States of America is given in the very last paragraph of the article.
​
Click to expand...

When anyone with a brain looks at what Turkey did he/she would ask one question. How can a nation buying advanced weapons systems from Russia be part of NATO. The organization meant to defend against Russian aggression.
 
washunut said:
When anyone with a brain looks at what Turkey did he/she would ask one question. How can a nation buying advanced weapons systems from Russia be part of NATO. The organization meant to defend against Russian aggression.
Click to expand...

Although cheaper than the US Patriot (it is partially subsidized), the S-400 is not compatible with NATO weaponry/standards.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Although cheaper than the US Patriot (it is partially subsidized), the S-400 is not compatible with NATO weaponry/standards.
Click to expand...

The OP knows this.

This thread is just another of his disingenuous nonsense threads.
 
Rexedgar said:
Hasn’t Turkey taken delivery of a handful of F-35 fighters? This would be an opportune time to pit the two systems against each other.

...and if this report is true, what are we doing getting parts for the frontline US fighter from Turkey?

How Will America Replace the 844 F-35 Parts That Turkey Makes? | The National Interest
Click to expand...

They received a couple or so but they are in the US for training Turkish pilots.

I wonder how the US and EU will feel if they are on the end of Turkish sanctions.

Ie no expects of oil from Turkey to the EU and no access to Turkish airspace for military flights among others. Perhaps sanctions on EU ships transiting into the Black sea
 
Rogue Valley said:
Although cheaper than the US Patriot (it is partially subsidized), the S-400 is not compatible with NATO weaponry/standards.
Click to expand...

Since I happen to have some slight familiarity with those standards, I'd really appreciate it if you could cite the exact standard that the S-400 is NOT compatible (and please use the actual dictionary definition of "compatible") with.

I live in expectant hope.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Since I happen to have some slight familiarity with those standards, I'd really appreciate it if you could cite the exact standard that the S-400 is NOT compatible (and please use the actual dictionary definition of "compatible") with.

I live in expectant hope.
Click to expand...

I expect the issue would be interoperable. So limited ability to share data
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
They received a couple or so but they are in the US for training Turkish pilots.

I wonder how the US and EU will feel if they are on the end of Turkish sanctions.

Ie no expects of oil from Turkey to the EU and no access to Turkish airspace for military flights among others. Perhaps sanctions on EU ships transiting into the Black sea
Click to expand...

Does Turkey have any leverage in regard to the bolded?

No idea how many pilots from Turkey the US has trained or how far their training has progressed. The acceptance of more pilots has been put on hold according to the link:

US has stopped accepting Turkish pilots for F-35 training over Russia defenses | TheHill
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Since I happen to have some slight familiarity with those standards, I'd really appreciate it if you could cite the exact standard that the S-400 is NOT compatible (and please use the actual dictionary definition of "compatible") with.

I live in expectant hope.
Click to expand...

I only know what I have been told. Check with your military people.
 
Rexedgar said:
Hasn’t Turkey taken delivery of a handful of F-35 fighters? This would be an opportune time to pit the two systems against each other.
Click to expand...

Four F-35's destined for Turkey are in Texas and being used to train Turkish pilots. That training program will be terminated at the end of July.

Rexedgar said:
...and if this report is true, what are we doing getting parts for the frontline US fighter from Turkey?

How Will America Replace the 844 F-35 Parts That Turkey Makes? | The National Interest
Click to expand...

Pentagon Will Raid F-35 Spare Parts Budget To Help Pay For Kicking Turkey Out Of The Program

Pentagon takes steps to replace Turkey in F-35 programme as sanctions loom

Lockheed: We Could Easily Sell Turkey’s F-35s to Other Customers


Selling Turkey's F-35s to Poland and the Baltic States is being considered.

The Trump administration is considering three options/levels of sanctions to levy on Turkey. One option should be selected by the end of this week.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
I expect the issue would be interoperable. So limited ability to share data
Click to expand...

Which, of course, is something that can be determined with 100% reliability without ever actually having any of the equipment to test.

On the other hand, the Russians have a history of having

  1. an "A" version which gets supplied to Russian (and "trusted, reliable, governments");
  2. a "B" version which gets supplied to "allied governments"; and
  3. a "C" version which gets sold to anyone else who has the cash to pay for it.

Since only the Russians know if the Turks are getting an "A" version, a "B" version, or a "C" version, no one actually knows what the actual capacity of the S-400 is. For all anyone knows there might be "hidden software" that records and transmits back to Russia information about NATO equipment that NATO doesn't want the Russians to have. Not only that, but it is also possible that there is "hidden software" which suppresses detection of NATO equipment so that the owners of "B" or "C" versions do not know that the countermeasures that they do take to ensure that the (in this case) S-400 is actually more capable than NATO would think that it is after running tests and seeing that the S-400 is completely ineffective against NATO aircraft (in which case no countermeasures would be developed at all).
 
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Rogue Valley said:
I only know what I have been told. Check with your military people.
Click to expand...

Since the (in this case) S-400 has NOT been through the process set out in the NATO Interoperability Standards and Profiles it is not possible to say that the S-400 does NOT meet the requirements.

It is, however, quite possible to conclude that if the Russians sell the S-400 to "Country A" then "Country A" will not be buying a similar piece of kit from an American military equipment manufacturer. (And, of course, if "Country A" does not buy that similar piece of kit from an American military equipment manufacturer then that similar piece of kit will NOT have "built in features" which would enable the government of the United States of America to render it inoperable whenever the government of the United States of America felt like doing just that.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Four F-35's destined for Turkey are in Texas and being used to train Turkish pilots. That training program will be terminated at the end of July.



Pentagon Will Raid F-35 Spare Parts Budget To Help Pay For Kicking Turkey Out Of The Program

Pentagon takes steps to replace Turkey in F-35 programme as sanctions loom

Lockheed: We Could Easily Sell Turkey’s F-35s to Other Customers


Selling Turkey's F-35s to Poland and the Baltic States is being considered.

The Trump administration is considering three options/levels of sanctions to levy on Turkey. One option should be selected by the end of this week.
Click to expand...

Indeed, prompt action is needed in order to protect the profits of American military equipment manufacturers.

PS - Do you have any idea of the level of bargaining power that a potential customer has when the dealer HAS TO sell something (even at a substantial loss in order to avoid a total loss)?
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Since the (in this case) S-400 has NOT been through the process set out in the NATO Interoperability Standards and Profiles it is not possible to say that the S-400 does NOT meet the requirements.
Click to expand...

Yes it is. I've talked with three members of the US military who should know and an Israeli and they explain that the Russian Growler radar and surface-to-air missiles (S-400) are not compatible with NATO military hardware and if the Turkish military deploys this non-NATO tested/approved system it will no longer have an integrated air defense network with other NATO alliance members.

You can't have 27 NATO members using A-type military equipment and one lone member using D-type military equipment and expect everything to mesh correctly. That is why suppliers of NATO military systems have a number of specifications they must adhere to. An "alliance" means exactly that. A force able to train with and utilize integrated equipment without compatibility issues. That is why Ukraine is phasing out its Soviet/Russian military equipment for approved NATO equipment ... because its military is now trained by and trains with NATO forces. On July 12 the 2019 Sea Breeze military naval exercise co-hosted by the US and Ukraine ended. This took place in the Black Sea and the Ukraine mainland and included 3,000 soldiers, 32 warships, and 24 aircraft from 13 different NATO nations. This sort of training exercise would be impossible if equipment from portable communication systems to aircraft refueling hoses were incompatible.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Indeed, prompt action is needed in order to protect the profits of American military equipment manufacturers.

PS - Do you have any idea of the level of bargaining power that a potential customer has when the dealer HAS TO sell something (even at a substantial loss in order to avoid a total loss)?
Click to expand...

I think your well out of your depth. Lockheed will have no trouble selling those fighter jets.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Yes it is. I've talked with three members of the US military who should know and an Israeli and they explain that the Russian Growler radar and surface-to-air missiles (S-400) are not compatible with NATO military hardware and if the Turkish military deploys this non-NATO tested/approved system it will no longer have an integrated air defense network with other NATO alliance members.

You can't have 27 NATO members using A-type military equipment and one lone member using D-type military equipment and expect everything to mesh correctly. That is why suppliers of NATO military systems have a number of specifications they must adhere to. An "alliance" means exactly that. A force able to train with and utilize integrated equipment without compatibility issues. That is why Ukraine is phasing out its Soviet/Russian military equipment for approved NATO equipment ... because its military is now trained by and trains with NATO forces. On July 12 the 2019 Sea Breeze military naval exercise co-hosted by the US and Ukraine ended. This took place in the Black Sea and the Ukraine mainland and included 3,000 soldiers, 32 warships, and 24 aircraft from 13 different NATO nations. This sort of training exercise would be impossible if equipment from portable communication systems to aircraft refueling hoses were incompatible.
Click to expand...

Not quite

A significant amount of the equipment used by Eastern European Nato countries are still based on Soviet/Warsaw pact systems, including fighters and tanks

So Turkey having a AA system that is not able to share data with other Nato countries is not a huge issue, there are other radar systems in Turkey that can and do
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Not quite

A significant amount of the equipment used by Eastern European Nato countries are still based on Soviet/Warsaw pact systems, including fighters and tanks

So Turkey having a AA system that is not able to share data with other Nato countries is not a huge issue, there are other radar systems in Turkey that can and do
Click to expand...

It is a huge issue. This isn't some outdated Soviet era tank. And this is not some twin barrel AA system.

It is perhaps the best anti-air missile system available today, and it is wholly incompatible with NATO defensive-air-systems.
 
Rogue Valley said:
It is a huge issue. This isn't some outdated Soviet era tank. And this is not some twin barrel AA system.

It is perhaps the best anti-air missile system available today, and it is wholly incompatible with NATO defensive-air-systems.
Click to expand...

Which matters little if it is being used to protect Turkish airspace, which by default protects Nato. It does not need to work with a Patriot system that is based in Poland, the distance between the two are rather larger than the range the S400 has.

Only in a layered defensive system, in which all the systems communicate with each other would that become an issue. But as Turkey did not have a comparable system before, the S400 is sill an upgrade in the overall defense of Turkey and by default Nato
 
Rogue Valley said:
It is a huge issue. This isn't some outdated Soviet era tank. And this is not some twin barrel AA system.

It is perhaps the best anti-air missile system available today, and it is wholly incompatible with NATO defensive-air-systems.
Click to expand...

If the S-400 is "the best anti-air missile system available today", why is the US forcing everyone to use second-rate equipment?
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
If the S-400 is "the best anti-air missile system available today", why is the US forcing everyone to use second-rate equipment?
Click to expand...

My exact quote.....

Rogue Valley said:
It is perhaps the best anti-air missile system available today, and it is wholly incompatible with NATO defensive-air-systems.
Click to expand...

Next time, don't chop off part of my quote that contains the proper context.
 
Rogue Valley said:
My exact quote.....

Next time, don't chop off part of my quote that contains the proper context.
Click to expand...

Your faux outrage is duly noted. I cited your exact words and then asked my own question.

However, to ensure tranquility how about this one:

IF, after exhaustive testing, it proves that the S-400 IS the best anti=air missile system available today, THEN would you recommend that the US government stop buying second rate equipment (simply because that second rate equipment is **A*M*E*R*I*C*A*N** second rate equipment) and purchase the best equipment available?
​
 
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