When the US swung a Russian election

[TU Curmudgeon]

From Le Monde Diplomatique

When the US swung a Russian election
​

It is claimed that Russia now interferes in the political and social affairs of most western countries. President Emmanuel Macron believes the yellow vests movement is partly an attempt by a ‘foreign power’ to destabilise France, and everyone knows he means Russia. Russia, it is claimed, is behind the emergence of a major separatist movement in Catalonia, the UK vote to leave the EU in 2016 and Donald Trump’s win in the 2016 US presidential election. In the US, the idea that a foreign power might be trying to influence political events in this way rouses emotional reactions in the media and in government, and has led to an inquiry into the possible connections between Trump, his election campaign and Russia.

But, despite the outrage there, the US has itself not always been respectful of the sovereignty of other states. Former US State Department official Thomas Melia admits that ‘the CIA manipulated elections in 1940s Italy and 1950s Germany — and beyond electoral shenanigans, it also secretly helped overthrow elected leaders in Iran and Guatemala in the 1950s’. He adds that these things happened during the cold war, and that since the fall of the Berlin Wall, Russian and US efforts to undermine foreign elections have not been ‘morally equivalent’: the US is pursuing ‘programmes to strengthen democratic processes in another country (without regard to specific electoral outcomes)’; Russia ‘manipulate another country’s election in order to sow chaos, undermine public confidence in the political system, and diminish a country’s social stability.’ Steven Hall, former chief of Russian operations at the CIA, says comparing them ‘is like saying cops and bad guys are the same because they both have guns’. The policies intended to overthrow Venezuela’s president Nicolás Maduro illustrate this view: the official line is that the US is promoting democracy, while Russia is supporting an illiberal dictator (see [Venezuela’s missing (...)

COMMENT:-

Unfortunately the remainder is behind a pay wall, but I thought that the above might spur someone into doing some digging into the veracity of the allegations.

"The U.S. is no stranger to interfering in the elections of other countries" might be a good place to start (and there isn't a pay wall on that one) but it is two years old.
​

 

[Nap]

From Le Monde Diplomatique

When the US swung a Russian election
​

It is claimed that Russia now interferes in the political and social affairs of most western countries. President Emmanuel Macron believes the yellow vests movement is partly an attempt by a ‘foreign power’ to destabilise France, and everyone knows he means Russia. Russia, it is claimed, is behind the emergence of a major separatist movement in Catalonia, the UK vote to leave the EU in 2016 and Donald Trump’s win in the 2016 US presidential election. In the US, the idea that a foreign power might be trying to influence political events in this way rouses emotional reactions in the media and in government, and has led to an inquiry into the possible connections between Trump, his election campaign and Russia.

But, despite the outrage there, the US has itself not always been respectful of the sovereignty of other states. Former US State Department official Thomas Melia admits that ‘the CIA manipulated elections in 1940s Italy and 1950s Germany — and beyond electoral shenanigans, it also secretly helped overthrow elected leaders in Iran and Guatemala in the 1950s’. He adds that these things happened during the cold war, and that since the fall of the Berlin Wall, Russian and US efforts to undermine foreign elections have not been ‘morally equivalent’: the US is pursuing ‘programmes to strengthen democratic processes in another country (without regard to specific electoral outcomes)’; Russia ‘manipulate another country’s election in order to sow chaos, undermine public confidence in the political system, and diminish a country’s social stability.’ Steven Hall, former chief of Russian operations at the CIA, says comparing them ‘is like saying cops and bad guys are the same because they both have guns’. The policies intended to overthrow Venezuela’s president Nicolás Maduro illustrate this view: the official line is that the US is promoting democracy, while Russia is supporting an illiberal dictator (see [Venezuela’s missing (...)

COMMENT:-

Unfortunately the remainder is behind a pay wall, but I thought that the above might spur someone into doing some digging into the veracity of the allegations.

"The U.S. is no stranger to interfering in the elections of other countries" might be a good place to start (and there isn't a pay wall on that one) but it is two years old.
​

It hasn't exactly been a secret that the US has used it's power to meddle in elections, instigate civil wars, impose sanctions to cripple foriegn governments, or simply outright use military force to achieve their goals around the globe. As bad as Russia is, they aren't even in the conversation with the US in regards to intervening in foriegn governments.

 

[rocket88]

Sure, the US has done much of that sort of thing. But that's a real flimsy excuse for Russian interference in our election. We should stop that regardless.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Oh we have definitely done that...and much more. I actually don’t hold much ill will toward Russia for interfering. That is the way this “game”, of which we have been a willing participant, is played. I DO hold ill will, however, for AMERICAN politicians who don’t do what they reasonably can to counter such foreign interference. At least the Russian operatives are actually doing the job they are paid to do. The same can’t be said for many of our own politicians.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Sure, the US has done much of that sort of thing. But that's a real flimsy excuse for Russian interference in our election. We should stop that regardless.

I agree. We should be the only one allowed to interfere in elections. We live by double standards. It is the basis of our government and justice system. Equal treatment is not all that it is cracked up to be. Do as we say not as we do is my motto. The nerve of those Russians thinking they can do what we do. We are the privileged and can do what ever we like. They are not privileged and should know their place.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Oh we have definitely done that...and much more. I actually don’t hold much ill will toward Russia for interfering. That is the way this “game”, of which we have been a willing participant, is played. I DO hold ill will, however, for AMERICAN politicians who don’t do what they reasonably can to counter such foreign interference. At least the Russian operatives are actually doing the job they are paid to do. The same can’t be said for many of our own politicians.

There has been no Russian interference on Trumps watch. I think he has done a remarkable job of this compared to Obama's failure. However in Obama's defense it was Hilary that poked the bear and stuck her nose in Putin's election first. He schooled her on Obama's watch. Trump was the fortunate recipient. I don't think Putin gives a damn about Trump as long as Trump is smart enough to not stick his nose where it don't belong. Plus I am tired of all the crying over how Putin schooled Hillary on Obama's watch already.

 

[rocket88]

I agree. We should be the only one allowed to interfere in elections. We live by double standards. It is the basis of our government and justice system. Equal treatment is not all that it is cracked up to be. Do as we say not as we do is my motto. The nerve of those Russians thinking they can do what we do. We are the privileged and can do what ever we like. They are not privileged and should know their place.

The Russians can do what they want, it is our responsibility as Americans to maintain our own security.

We invaded Iraq. I don't agree with why we did it, but that doesn't mean I think another country should just be able to invade the US.

 

[rocket88]

There has been no Russian interference on Trumps watch. I think he has done a remarkable job of this compared to Obama's failure. However in Obama's defense it was Hilary that poked the bear and stuck her nose in Putin's election first. He schooled her on Obama's watch. Trump was the fortunate recipient. I don't think Putin gives a damn about Trump as long as Trump is smart enough to not stick his nose where it don't belong. Plus I am tired of all the crying over how Putin schooled Hillary on Obama's watch already.

Trump was the "fortunate recipient?" Are you admitting that the Russians helped to elect him? Is that all you care about? "Well,Trump won, so go ahead. As long as you do it to help Republicans, that's alm I care about!"

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Sure, the US has done much of that sort of thing. But that's a real flimsy excuse for Russian interference in our election. We should stop that regardless.

And stopping American intervention in the elections in other countries (let's take a baby-step first and limit that to NOT overthrowing the governments of other countries) comes WHERE on the list?

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Trump was the "fortunate recipient?" Are you admitting that the Russians helped to elect him? Is that all you care about? "Well,Trump won, so go ahead. As long as you do it to help Republicans, that's alm I care about!"

Putin could care less who ran against Hillary. Hillary attacked him and he paid her back. Sorry you are unable to understand how that works.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

The Russians can do what they want, it is our responsibility as Americans to maintain our own security.

We invaded Iraq. I don't agree with why we did it, but that doesn't mean I think another country should just be able to invade the US.

No. They do not have the same rights as we do. We are the good guys so we can do anything we want. They are the bad guys and should be punished for doing what we do. That is only the right and fair way to handle this. It is like flipping a coin. Heads we win tails they lose. That is how we play the game.

 

[Grand Mal]

No. They do not have the same rights as we do. We are the good guys so we can do anything we want. They are the bad guys and should be punished for doing what we do. That is only the right and fair way to handle this. It is like flipping a coin. Heads we win tails they lose. That is how we play the game.

So stop them. Go ahead. The world is watching.

 

[rocket88]

Putin could care less who ran against Hillary. Hillary attacked him and he paid her back. Sorry you are unable to understand how that works.

It's not about why he did it. But you proved my point.

 

[rocket88]

So stop them. Go ahead. The world is watching.

He doesn't want to stop them....unless of course they stopped supporting Trump.

 

[rocket88]

No. They do not have the same rights as we do. We are the good guys so we can do anything we want. They are the bad guys and should be punished for doing what we do. That is only the right and fair way to handle this. It is like flipping a coin. Heads we win tails they lose. That is how we play the game.

Well, then shut down the military. We invaded other countries, therefore go ahead and invade us. Putin should do it, you'd be thrilled.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

So stop them. Go ahead. The world is watching.

We do. That is why place sanctions on them. You don't see any countries putting sanctions on us. They know better. They know their place.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

It's not about why he did it. But you proved my point.

Proved what? The fact that Putin released information showing the corruption in our democratic party. He did what are FBI should have done and exposed the corruption.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Well, then shut down the military. We invaded other countries, therefore go ahead and invade us. Putin should do it, you'd be thrilled.

It is our military that the rich and powerful use to get what they want from countries all over the world. We pay for a big stick so they can run the show and maintain their wealth. That is the right way to do things.

 

[rocket88]

We do. That is why place sanctions on them. You don't see any countries putting sanctions on us. They know better. They know their place.

Sanctions are good. Sanctions are appropriate.

You're now backing off your "but we do it" canard. I agree with sanctions.

 

[rocket88]

Proved what? The fact that Putin released information showing the corruption in our democratic party. He did what are FBI should have done and exposed the corruption.

You proved my point that you don't care as long as it benefits the Republican party.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Sanctions are good. Sanctions are appropriate.

You're now backing off your "but we do it" canard. I agree with sanctions.

Of course We should punish them. Who do they think they are? Americans. I don't think so. They need to learn their place in society.

 

[Grand Mal]

We do. That is why place sanctions on them. You don't see any countries putting sanctions on us. They know better. They know their place.

You need to do better research. China, for example, has numerous tariffs against the US. The US has had to compensate soybean farmers, for example, for the damage they've had from Chinese sanctions.

 

[ralphcdp]

Sure, the US has done much of that sort of thing. But that's a real flimsy excuse for Russian interference in our election. We should stop that regardless.

Sure, the USA is the real evil in this world but we should continue with our rank propaganda to keep this totally biased and unfair system going because it results in the USA slaughtering millions of innocents and I know that speaking for myself, I love to watch US military carpet bomb villagers, shake and bake them, rape their children, torture them, I mean, my life would be empty without being able to thrill to a new illegal USA invasion. Anyone know who is next?

 

[Abbazorkzog]

No one is innocent.

 

[Evilroddy]

No. They do not have the same rights as we do. We are the good guys so we can do anything we want. They are the bad guys and should be punished for doing what we do. That is only the right and fair way to handle this. It is like flipping a coin. Heads we win tails they lose. That is how we play the game.

Pipewrench:

The Russians can still do whatever they want, even if you define them as the bad guys and the US as the good guys. The colour of your hat does not limit your freedom of action. Only your conscience does that. Neither Russia nor America have shown much conscience in their foreign political meddling and the cost in human lives has been high as a result. The USA has no more right to meddle in foreign democracy than any other state. You're all in the moral gutter when you pervert the democratic process as such behaviour is harmful to all democracy.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.