• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

US policy drives Russia, China together ahead of summit

TU Curmudgeon

TU Curmudgeon

B.A. (Sarc), LLb. (Lex Sarcasus), PhD (Sarc.)
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 7, 2018
Messages
62,504
Reaction score
19,311
Location
Lower Mainland of BC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
From ABC News

US policy drives Russia, China together ahead of summit
​

When Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping meet this week, they will have plenty to talk about thanks to U.S. President Donald Trump.

Xi is traveling to Vladivostok, in the Russian Far East, on Tuesday and Wednesday for an economic conference where he's expected to meet with Putin, while China joins vast Russian war games for the first time.

Neither side has said what they'll discuss, but Trump's policies on trade and North Korea are topics of interest to both Russia and China. And U.S. sanctions on Russia have played a role in driving Russia and China closer together.

The setting is also symbolic — Vladivostok and the Russian Far East are developing close ties with China, including a vast new casino complex aimed at attracting Chinese high-rollers.

COMMENT:-

How **D*A*R*E** those Ruskies invade Mr. Trump's sovereign territory and build a casino.

It's time for **S*A*N*C*T*I*O*N*S**
​
 
TUC:

I know this should be a serious thread but the end of your OP caused me to laugh and gag on my lunch. Well done, sir! Lol and Gol!

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From ABC News

US policy drives Russia, China together ahead of summit
​

When Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping meet this week, they will have plenty to talk about thanks to U.S. President Donald Trump.

Xi is traveling to Vladivostok, in the Russian Far East, on Tuesday and Wednesday for an economic conference where he's expected to meet with Putin, while China joins vast Russian war games for the first time.

Neither side has said what they'll discuss, but Trump's policies on trade and North Korea are topics of interest to both Russia and China. And U.S. sanctions on Russia have played a role in driving Russia and China closer together.

The setting is also symbolic — Vladivostok and the Russian Far East are developing close ties with China, including a vast new casino complex aimed at attracting Chinese high-rollers.

COMMENT:-

How **D*A*R*E** those Ruskies invade Mr. Trump's sovereign territory and build a casino.

It's time for **S*A*N*C*T*I*O*N*S**
​
Click to expand...

Russia and China began their most recent snuggling under the end of the Bush Administration (Iran and a few others were and still are a part of that circle jerk group) and went full bore love affair under the Obama Administration. What's going on now is just a furtherance of that already established love fest.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From ABC News

US policy drives Russia, China together ahead of summit
​

When Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping meet this week, they will have plenty to talk about thanks to U.S. President Donald Trump.

Xi is traveling to Vladivostok, in the Russian Far East, on Tuesday and Wednesday for an economic conference where he's expected to meet with Putin, while China joins vast Russian war games for the first time.

Neither side has said what they'll discuss, but Trump's policies on trade and North Korea are topics of interest to both Russia and China. And U.S. sanctions on Russia have played a role in driving Russia and China closer together.

The setting is also symbolic — Vladivostok and the Russian Far East are developing close ties with China, including a vast new casino complex aimed at attracting Chinese high-rollers.

COMMENT:-

How **D*A*R*E** those Ruskies invade Mr. Trump's sovereign territory and build a casino.

It's time for **S*A*N*C*T*I*O*N*S**
​
Click to expand...

shrug...

Russia is irrelevant. Trump has their number...and it has to do with energy.

China...they could get more tariffs.

The two of them together...inconsequential.
 
Mycroft said:
shrug...

Russia is irrelevant. Trump has their number...and it has to do with energy.

China...they could get more tariffs.

The two of them together...inconsequential.
Click to expand...

Indeed, just like the EU, the UK, Canada, Mexico, the Middle East, South America, Central America, Japan, and Southeast Asia, are "together ... inconsequential".
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Indeed, just like the EU, the UK, Canada, Mexico, the Middle East, South America, Central America, Japan, and Southeast Asia, are "together ... inconsequential".
Click to expand...

Except they are not together.
 
Mycroft said:
shrug...

Russia is irrelevant. Trump has their number...and it has to do with energy.

China...they could get more tariffs.

The two of them together...inconsequential.
Click to expand...

How could you possibly make a statement like that? Certainly NOT, Russia is not irrelevant. You really need to study up more on Russia. It's Putin that had Trump's number. Putin knew a useful idiot when he spotted one. It's just shocking to me how little people know about global affairs. No wonder our country is in the crapper, Americans are ignorant and think we live on an island and don't need anyone else. That's a very dangerous thing to believe.

Here's a primer for you, begin your education about Russia in a simple, easy to understand way.
imageedit_7_9454873681.jpg
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From ABC News

US policy drives Russia, China together ahead of summit
​

When Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping meet this week, they will have plenty to talk about thanks to U.S. President Donald Trump.

Xi is traveling to Vladivostok, in the Russian Far East, on Tuesday and Wednesday for an economic conference where he's expected to meet with Putin, while China joins vast Russian war games for the first time.

Neither side has said what they'll discuss, but Trump's policies on trade and North Korea are topics of interest to both Russia and China. And U.S. sanctions on Russia have played a role in driving Russia and China closer together.

The setting is also symbolic — Vladivostok and the Russian Far East are developing close ties with China, including a vast new casino complex aimed at attracting Chinese high-rollers.

COMMENT:-

How **D*A*R*E** those Ruskies invade Mr. Trump's sovereign territory and build a casino.

It's time for **S*A*N*C*T*I*O*N*S**
​
Click to expand...

The war games part is troubling, not because they are holding them but the massive size, so far the total given is about 300,000 russian soldiers, 3600 chinese soldiers, 36,000 tanks and armored vehicles, around 1k aircraft, and 80 naval vessals. Nato has billed it as preparation for a massive scale conflict, russia has billed it as preperation for defense, and some chinese officials have called it preperation for ww3 which they feel will happen by 2020. Who is right heck would I know, russia will not state everything it knows, and china just has some officials saying stuff, with no official statements endorsed by the chinese military.

Either way it is pretty much the largest training even russia has held since zapad 81 under the soviet union and possible the largest military training even in the history of mankind, not something to easily ignore.
 
beerftw said:
The war games part is troubling, not because they are holding them but the massive size, so far the total given is about 300,000 russian soldiers, 3600 chinese soldiers, 36,000 tanks and armored vehicles, around 1k aircraft, and 80 naval vessals. Nato has billed it as preparation for a massive scale conflict, russia has billed it as preperation for defense, and some chinese officials have called it preperation for ww3 which they feel will happen by 2020. Who is right heck would I know, russia will not state everything it knows, and china just has some officials saying stuff, with no official statements endorsed by the chinese military.

Either way it is pretty much the largest training even russia has held since zapad 81 under the soviet union and possible the largest military training even in the history of mankind, not something to easily ignore.
Click to expand...

The Chinese lack military preparedness. Participation is exercises such as this, the first such time with Russia albeit only small scale, are vital for the continued development not just of inter-operability but also the professionalisation of Chinese forces.

China may be viewed by the West as the senior partner about to gobble up Russia (that old falsehood) but the fact is that its military is light years behind in terms of war fighting experience, capability, and readiness.

The other thing to note is that this exercise is being held in the CMD and EMD, rather than the west. This is mainly to defuse western hysteria, although also because the western units are the best equipped and prepared in any case.

But you're right that this exercise is addressed to those brain dead morons in the US who still think that Russia could be rolled over at will by the mighty US, and that therefore it might be a good idea to teach them a lesson in a contained scenario like Syria.

Trust me, it woludn't.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
From ABC News

US policy drives Russia, China together ahead of summit
​

When Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping meet this week, they will have plenty to talk about thanks to U.S. President Donald Trump.

Xi is traveling to Vladivostok, in the Russian Far East, on Tuesday and Wednesday for an economic conference where he's expected to meet with Putin, while China joins vast Russian war games for the first time.

Neither side has said what they'll discuss, but Trump's policies on trade and North Korea are topics of interest to both Russia and China. And U.S. sanctions on Russia have played a role in driving Russia and China closer together.

The setting is also symbolic — Vladivostok and the Russian Far East are developing close ties with China, including a vast new casino complex aimed at attracting Chinese high-rollers.

COMMENT:-

How **D*A*R*E** those Ruskies invade Mr. Trump's sovereign territory and build a casino.

It's time for **S*A*N*C*T*I*O*N*S**
​
Click to expand...

Not everything that happens in the world can be traced back to US foreign policy
 
beerftw said:
The war games part is troubling, not because they are holding them but the massive size, so far the total given is about 300,000 russian soldiers, 3600 chinese soldiers, 36,000 tanks and armored vehicles, around 1k aircraft, and 80 naval vessals.
Click to expand...

Ridiculous. If there were that many involved Mr. Trump would have told them that they couldn't do it and imposed sanctions if they didn't obey.

beerftw said:
Either way it is pretty much the largest training even russia has held since zapad 81 under the soviet union and possible the largest military training even in the history of mankind, not something to easily ignore.
Click to expand...

I see that you have (almost) penetrated to the heart of the matter. As long as the Russians keep up the pretense that they are conducting a massive military training program, then Mr. Trump will feel compelled to prove that the US is still #1 by staging an even bigger one.

If the US commits more than 300,000 of its 476,000 Regular Army personnel to a training exercise then the remaining troops on active duty won't be sufficient to stop the Russian invasion and conquest of Europe (which will take place at the same time as the DPRK invasion and conquest of the ROK [which will take place at the same time as the Chinese invasion and conquest of Taiwan {which will take place at the same time as the Iranian invasion and conquest of Israel}]).

Obviously the only rational solution is to reactivate "The Draft" and get hundreds of thousands more troops into the US military in order to forestall this dastardly Islamo-Commie plot.

Right?
 
Fletch said:
Not everything that happens in the world can be traced back to US foreign policy
Click to expand...

Please don't tell that to the US government (in general) or to Mr. Trump (in particular).
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Ridiculous. If there were that many involved Mr. Trump would have told them that they couldn't do it and imposed sanctions if they didn't obey.



I see that you have (almost) penetrated to the heart of the matter. As long as the Russians keep up the pretense that they are conducting a massive military training program, then Mr. Trump will feel compelled to prove that the US is still #1 by staging an even bigger one.

If the US commits more than 300,000 of its 476,000 Regular Army personnel to a training exercise then the remaining troops on active duty won't be sufficient to stop the Russian invasion and conquest of Europe (which will take place at the same time as the DPRK invasion and conquest of the ROK [which will take place at the same time as the Chinese invasion and conquest of Taiwan {which will take place at the same time as the Iranian invasion and conquest of Israel}]).

Obviously the only rational solution is to reactivate "The Draft" and get hundreds of thousands more troops into the US military in order to forestall this dastardly Islamo-Commie plot.

Right?
Click to expand...

I doubt the us could ever commit 300k without a draft, both russia and the us are almost identical on active duty numbers, but the bulk of russias active duty are in russia with a few thrown in syria armenia and breakaway regions, while the us has bases all over the world and obligations to uphold. You are correct they would need a draft, or atleast to increase active military to cold war levels without a draft to pull that off.


But the draft is not rational, it is still there just not used, it is intended to be a backup measure, not a means to fill the ranks in peacetime. Even russia is moving away from the draft and pushing more volunteer soldiers into it's ranks, and america learned from vietnam that the draft works horribly unless the american people they draft have a will to fight that war.
 
beerftw said:
I doubt the us could ever commit 300k without a draft, both russia and the us are almost identical on active duty numbers, but the bulk of russias active duty are in russia with a few thrown in syria armenia and breakaway regions, while the us has bases all over the world and obligations to uphold. You are correct they would need a draft, or atleast to increase active military to cold war levels without a draft to pull that off.


But the draft is not rational, it is still there just not used, it is intended to be a backup measure, not a means to fill the ranks in peacetime. Even russia is moving away from the draft and pushing more volunteer soldiers into it's ranks, and america learned from vietnam that the draft works horribly unless the american people they draft have a will to fight that war.
Click to expand...

Please do not tell Mr. Trump that the US cannot put on a military exercise in which 300,000 American military personnel take part because the next thing you know he will be promising to put on one with 600,000 personnel AND that the Russians will pay for it.
 
Here's another manifestation of how moronically arrogant US policy is driving China and Russia together. I mean, we all know that Americans are generally thought to be a bit thick and unaware of the rest of the world, but really even my cat knows that sanctions are failing :


https://www.rt.com/news/439118-china-us-sanctions-arms-russia/

The US approach is a blatant violation of the basic norms of international relations, a full manifestation of hegemony, and a serious breach of the relations between the two countries and their two militaries,” Wu said in a notice posted on the Chinese Defense Ministry’s official Wechat account, Reuters reports.
 
Westphalian said:
Here's another manifestation of how moronically arrogant US policy is driving China and Russia together. I mean, we all know that Americans are generally thought to be a bit thick and unaware of the rest of the world, but really even my cat knows that sanctions are failing :


https://www.rt.com/news/439118-china-us-sanctions-arms-russia/

The US approach is a blatant violation of the basic norms of international relations, a full manifestation of hegemony, and a serious breach of the relations between the two countries and their two militaries,” Wu said in a notice posted on the Chinese Defense Ministry’s official Wechat account, Reuters reports.
Click to expand...

China needs gas and oil.

Russia and Canada have gas and oil.

Russia sells its gas and oil to American supported governments in Europe.

Canada sells its gas and oil to the United States of America (which counts that as a negative for balance of trade purposes [and the US then sells it off shore at a marked up price {which it counts as a positive for balance of trade purposes}]).

The majority of funding for "pipeline protests" in Canada comes from US sources and is directed at East/West pipelines which have the potential to divert Canadian oil from the US market.

The US government is in the process of (deliberately?) antagonizing the Russian, Chinese, and Canadian governments.

That might succeed for the US government, but the possibility that it just might give rise to a "Foxtrot Uniform" moment that results in Russian and Canadian gas and oil being diverted from their current markets and into the Chinese market is one that absolutely no one in the US government appears to be taking any cognizance of.

Will that happen? I don't know.

Is there absolutely no chance of that happening? No.

Would the end result be "not good" for the US economy and/or political influence if it did happen? Yes.

Would there be anything that the US government could do about it if it did happen? Sure, the US could always invade and conquer Canada. After all the Canadian people are too polite to offer any resistance whatsoever so it should be really simple. Right?
 
Beaudreaux said:
Russia and China began their most recent snuggling under the end of the Bush Administration (Iran and a few others were and still are a part of that circle jerk group) and went full bore love affair under the Obama Administration. What's going on now is just a furtherance of that already established love fest.
Click to expand...

Well who would want to SNUGGLE WITH TRUMP,he's a crap fook,... anyway, by all accounts
 
Westphalian said:
The Chinese lack military preparedness. Participation is exercises such as this, the first such time with Russia albeit only small scale, are vital for the continued development not just of inter-operability but also the professionalisation of Chinese forces.

China may be viewed by the West as the senior partner about to gobble up Russia (that old falsehood) but the fact is that its military is light years behind in terms of war fighting experience, capability, and readiness.

The other thing to note is that this exercise is being held in the CMD and EMD, rather than the west. This is mainly to defuse western hysteria, although also because the western units are the best equipped and prepared in any case.

But you're right that this exercise is addressed to those brain dead morons in the US who still think that Russia could be rolled over at will by the mighty US, and that therefore it might be a good idea to teach them a lesson in a contained scenario like Syria.

Trust me, it woludn't.
Click to expand...

Well the US WAR fighting EXPIERENCE IS HOPELESS,who you kidding,they haven't won a WAR in Centuries,they win the Battles but never the Wars,go back to BED AND DREAM ON
 
mycroft said:
shrug...

Russia is irrelevant. Trump has their number...and it has to do with energy.

China...they could get more tariffs.

The two of them together...inconsequential.
Click to expand...

yawn on
 
theliq said:
Well the US WAR fighting EXPIERENCE IS HOPELESS,who you kidding,they haven't won a WAR in Centuries,they win the Battles but never the Wars,go back to BED AND DREAM ON
Click to expand...

Oh come on now!

Didn't you read the history books in High School? Don't you watch FOX News?

  • The US won WWI all by itself.
  • The US won WWII all by itself.
  • The US won the Korean War all by itself.
  • The US won the War on Poverty.
  • The US won the War on Terrorism.
  • The US won the Afghanistan War all by itself.
  • The US won the war against Iraq all by itself.
  • The US didn't lose the Vietnam War (and that's the same thing as winning it).
  • The US is winning the war in Syria all by itself.

How can you possibly say that "the US hasn't won a WAR in centuries".

Why the closest that the US has ever come to losing a war was in 1812-14 and even then it didn't lose because it came out of the war with exactly what it went into it with (not counting the dead soldiers, of course).

Now if you want to say something like "The 'American Temperament' is such that the US has a great deal of difficulty in coping with 'The Long War' since the 'American Temperament' demands instant results.", I'd be willing to agree with you.

However, you should also note that "has a great deal of difficulty in coping" does not mean the same thing as "cannot cope".

The American people CAN cope with "The Long War" provided that they are sufficiently motivated and are led by people of clear, consistent, vision who are able to explain what is happening, what is proposed to be done about it, and why that has to be done to cope with it in an open, honest, forthright, and lucid manner without resorting to either "weasel words" or the equivalent of "It's all Mikey's fault.".

I suggest that you examine today's political scene and then draw your own conclusions based on both the current reality and what is actually needed in order to "win".
 
The Russians and Chinese had perhaps 100,000 troops combined.

Creative accounting. If they used a battalion from a division, they counted the entire division.

Besides, numbers don't address effectiveness.
 
theliq said:
Well the US WAR fighting EXPIERENCE IS HOPELESS,who you kidding,they haven't won a WAR in Centuries,they win the Battles but never the Wars,go back to BED AND DREAM ON
Click to expand...

Uh.....Desert Storm was in 1991.

Just to name an obvious recent example
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom