Sure, we could spend 4% of GDP on the military — with huge cuts or tax hikes

TU Curmudgeon · Jul 13, 2018

From the CBC

Sure, we could spend 4% of GDP on the military — with huge cuts or tax hikes

U.S. President Donald Trump is demanding Canada and other NATO allies boost their military spending to four per cent of their gross domestic product. Canada spends about 1.2 per cent.

Many politicians and analysts have dismissed the demand as outlandish or impossible. Of course Canada could spend four per cent of its GDP. It's the how that makes it difficult.

Trump's claim that NATO will boost defence spending disputed

Start with some basic math. Canada's nominal GDP is $2.1 trillion. Four per cent of that would come in around $84 billion.

Right now Canada spends about $25 billion annually on national defence. The Liberals have promised to increase that to $32 billion. But to reach four per cent, we're talking about an increase in military spending of about $60 billion from today's level.

COMMENT:-

This might give some insight into why the Canadian government doesn't want to turn Canada into a carbon copy of the United States of America - something that is opposed by the vast majority of the Canadian people.

PS - The projected increase in the Canadian defence budget of 70% by 2024 will have Canada spending approximately 2.176% of its GDP on defence.

Kal'Stang · Jul 13, 2018

The US spends over 600BN per year on defense spending. Why? Maybe, just maybe part of the reason is because our NATO allies aren't living up to their end of the bargain. Which is why Trump has been trying to get NATO allies to increase their defense spending.

CNN ~ Which NATO members are falling short on military spending?

Is it really all that bad to expect our allies to hold up to their agreements?

Grand Mal · Jul 13, 2018

Kal'Stang said:
The US spends over 600BN per year on defense spending. Why? Maybe, just maybe part of the reason is because our NATO allies aren't living up to their end of the bargain. Which is why Trump has been trying to get NATO allies to increase their defense spending.

CNN ~ Which NATO members are falling short on military spending?

Is it really all that bad to expect our allies to hold up to their agreements?

Too many of those $200 toilet seats?

Don't blame anyone else for your own profligate military spending. It's not like there needs to be $X in the pot and you have to make up a shortfall. Do you figure the US military budget will go down if half a dozen other countries raise theirs? Of course not. So lets have a few less of the alligator tears.

OrphanSlug · Jul 13, 2018

Asking NATO members to spend what they agreed to I take no issue with, what I take issue with is the US spending more on our military than the next 8 (ish) nations combined the majority of which are our allies. Not all of that is a matter of NATO.

Andalublue · Jul 13, 2018

Kal'Stang said:
The US spends over 600BN per year on defense spending. Why? Maybe, just maybe part of the reason is because our NATO allies aren't living up to their end of the bargain. Which is why Trump has been trying to get NATO allies to increase their defense spending.

CNN ~ Which NATO members are falling short on military spending?

Is it really all that bad to expect our allies to hold up to their agreements?

Perhaps the US should reduce their defence spending, rather than getting everyone else to increase theirs. On the one hand Trump is trying to convince the world how US-Russian relations are so good, and how little a threat Putin is to the wider international community. If that were the case, why not engage in some disarmament negotiations to build on that 'trust' and goodwill? Why does the military-industrial complex require more and more money to be funneled to it when, with the isolationist FP approach that Trump has been banging on about for years now, the US will be required to engage in fewer overseas actions? He wants to have his cake when he claims to have no intention of eating it.

I suspect the answer is that the alternative to militarism, which is diplomacy, isn't really his forte; he's clearly terrible at it, witness the G8 fiasco, his current cluster**** visit to the UK and the unraveling already of his North Korea initiative.

Kal'Stang · Jul 13, 2018

Andalublue said:
Perhaps the US should reduce their defence spending, rather than getting everyone else to increase theirs. On the one hand Trump is trying to convince the world how US-Russian relations are so good, and how little a threat Putin is to the wider international community. If that were the case, why not engage in some disarmament negotiations to build on that 'trust' and goodwill? Why does the military-industrial complex require more and more money to be funneled to it when, with the isolationist FP approach that Trump has been banging on about for years now, the US will be required to engage in fewer overseas actions? He wants to have his cake when he claims to have no intention of eating it.

I've been saying for years that we should reduce our defense spending. (part of the reason that I support Trumps effort to get our NATO allies to spend more on their defense spending.) There are sooooo many better ways to spend our money than policing the entire world.

TU Curmudgeon · Jul 13, 2018

Kal'Stang said:
The US spends over 600BN per year on defense spending. Why? Maybe, just maybe part of the reason is because our NATO allies aren't living up to their end of the bargain. Which is why Trump has been trying to get NATO allies to increase their defense spending.

Now there's an interesting perspective which completely ignores the fact that the NON-US members of NATO are actually spending over 400% more on defence than the Russians are spending.

You do realize that NATO is intended to be a defence against "Russian aggression" and is not (formally) committed to defending Asia, Africa, Australia, South America, Central America, or the Pacific Islands - don't you?

Exactly how much more than FOUR TIMES as much as the Russians are spending on defence do you think that the NON-US members of NATO should be spending to defend themselves against "Russian aggression"?

Does your estimate of how much more than FOUR TIMES as much as the Russians are spending on defence take into account the fact that the odds of the Russians actually attempting to invade and conquer Europe lie someplace between "bloody slim" and "none"? After all, doesn't Mr. Trump now say that the Russians are our friends - not like those evil Brits, Germans, French, Dutch, Belgians, Spanish, and Canadians?

Kal'Stang said:
Is it really all that bad to expect our allies to hold up to their agreements?

Since the agreement that you refer to is an agreement to spend 2% of their GDP on defence by 2024, and since 2024 is 6 years away, exactly how do you conclude that the other members of NATO are NOT spending 2% of their GDP on defence in 2024.

Pick one:

_____ I use a Ouija Board.
_____ I use a crystal ball.
_____ I consult the spirits of an ancient Egyptian priest.
_____ I guess.
_____ I make it up.
_____ I unhesitatingly accept everything that FOX News, Breitbart, InfoWars, and Donald John Trump tell me as 100% completely true and fully disclosive of reality.

Kal'Stang · Jul 13, 2018

TU Curmudgeon said:
Now there's an interesting perspective which completely ignores the fact that the NON-US members of NATO are actually spending over 400% more on defence than the Russians are spending.

You do realize that NATO is intended to be a defence against "Russian aggression" and is not (formally) committed to defending Asia, Africa, Australia, South America, Central America, or the Pacific Islands - don't you?

Exactly how much more than FOUR TIMES as much as the Russians are spending on defence do you think that the NON-US members of NATO should be spending to defend themselves against "Russian aggression"?

Does your estimate of how much more than FOUR TIMES as much as the Russians are spending on defence take into account the fact that the odds of the Russians actually attempting to invade and conquer Europe lie someplace between "bloody slim" and "none"? After all, doesn't Mr. Trump now say that the Russians are our friends - not like those evil Brits, Germans, French, Dutch, Belgians, Spanish, and Canadians?

Since the agreement that you refer to is an agreement to spend 2% of their GDP on defence by 2024, and since 2024 is 6 years away, exactly how do you conclude that the other members of NATO are NOT spending 2% of their GDP on defence in 2024.

Pick one:

_____ I use a Ouija Board.

_____ I use a crystal ball.

_____ I consult the spirits of an ancient Egyptian priest.

_____ I guess.

_____ I make it up.

_____ I unhesitatingly accept everything that FOX News, Breitbart, InfoWars, and Donald John Trump tell me as 100% completely true and fully disclosive of reality.

Funny. I post an article from CNN (note: Not FOX News, Breitbart, InfoWars, or Trump...but CNN) and you not only ignore what it said but your reply is....this? Pfft. You're not interested in actually debating this. :2wave:

Andalublue · Jul 13, 2018

Kal'Stang said:
I've been saying for years that we should reduce our defense spending. (part of the reason that I support Trumps effort to get our NATO allies to spend more on their defense spending.) There are sooooo many better ways to spend our money than policing the entire world.

I completely agree, and surely the logical approach to that withdrawal from the role of world policing, both by the US and NATO, is to conclude that the overall level of defence spending is unnecessarily high. I understand Americans' disgruntlement with the high level of military spending their government sustains, but that's their government's decision. It is not being forced upon the US by its NATO allies. And if the US judges that in reassessing its military spending it withdraws from certain actions in the NATO arena, the other members themselves can decide whether to back-fill that spending, or live with the strategic consequences. There's a very strong wave of opinion in Europe that believes a less confrontational approach to NATO-Russian relations may pay dividends. I would have thought Trump might share that attitude.

iguanaman · Jul 13, 2018

Kal'Stang said:
I've been saying for years that we should reduce our defense spending. (part of the reason that I support Trumps effort to get our NATO allies to spend more on their defense spending.) There are sooooo many better ways to spend our money than policing the entire world.

So you think national security is only about protecting our borders? That is the most regressive and naive comment I've heard today. Trump is raising our military spending not lowering it and you support that so quit the foolishness.

chuckiechan · Jul 13, 2018

Andalublue said:
Perhaps the US should reduce their defence spending, rather than getting everyone else to increase theirs. On the one hand Trump is trying to convince the world how US-Russian relations are so good, and how little a threat Putin is to the wider international community. JIf that were the case, why not engage in some disarmament negotiations to build on that 'trust' and goodwill? Why does the military-industrial complex require more and more money to be funneled to it when, with the isolationist FP approach that Trump has been banging on about for years now, the US will be required to engage in fewer overseas actions? He wants to have his cake when he claims to have no intention of eating it.

I suspect the answer is that the alternative to militarism, which is diplomacy, isn't really his forte; he's clearly terrible at it, witness the G8 fiasco, his current cluster**** visit to the UK and the unraveling already of his North Korea initiative.

Seriously? Putin is on the border in Poland, Iran is developing nukes to aim at us, China claims it has the God given right to rob us blind and turn the South China Sea into its personal lake. Not to mention we are under cyber attack by nearly everyone.

And if Putin decided to roll into Europe we would be called upon to stop them.

So yeah, we need a big budget, and we need everyone else to pay their share - tips accepted.

iguanaman · Jul 13, 2018

Andalublue said:
I completely agree, and surely the logical approach to that withdrawal from the role of world policing, both by the US and NATO, is to conclude that the overall level of defence spending is unnecessarily high. I understand Americans' disgruntlement with the high level of military spending their government sustains, but that's their government's decision. It is not being forced upon the US by its NATO allies. And if the US judges that in reassessing its military spending it withdraws from certain actions in the NATO arena, the other members themselves can decide whether to back-fill that spending, or live with the strategic consequences. There's a very strong wave of opinion in Europe that believes a less confrontational approach to NATO-Russian relations may pay dividends. I would have thought Trump might share that attitude.

Trump supports anything that Putin wants. His show at NATO is proof of that. I would worry about getting in bed with jackals if I was in Europe. We will not have Trump as President much longer..

Kal'Stang · Jul 13, 2018

iguanaman said:
So you think national security is only about protecting our borders? That is the most regressive and naive comment I've heard today. Trump is raising our military spending not lowering it and you support that so quit the foolishness.

I have consistently stated that we should reduce our military spending by at least 50% for years now. So no, I do not support Trumps raising of our military spending. If think I do then go find a post of mine that I support Trump increasing our military spending. Go ahead, I'll wait. But I won't hold my breath.

And no, national security is about protecting our whole country, not just our borders and HELPING our allies protect theirs. Every other country in the world manages to do this at 10 times less than the amount that the US does. China being the only one closest to the US at $150BN. (remember, I posted an amount of 600BN and linked to a CNN article that gave an amount of 650BN.)

iguanaman · Jul 13, 2018

chuckiechan said:
Seriously? Putin is on the border in Poland, Iran is developing nukes to aim at us, China claims it has the God given right to rob us blind and turn the South China Sea into its personal lake. Not to mention we are under cyber attack by nearly everyone.

And if Putin decided to roll into Europe we would be called upon to stop them.

So yeah, we need a big budget, and we need everyone else to pay their share - tips accepted.

We need allies too. The treachery of Trump is weakening our national security no matter how much we spend. He is charged by Putin to do this and you blindly follow him.

gdgyva · Jul 13, 2018

Kal'Stang said:
I've been saying for years that we should reduce our defense spending. (part of the reason that I support Trumps effort to get our NATO allies to spend more on their defense spending.) There are sooooo many better ways to spend our money than policing the entire world.

it would be easy to do

shut down most of our bases overseas

cut down on our military fleets

cut our forces by 1/2

worry about protecting ourselves and let the rest of the world protect itself

we could cut defense spending in half.....

go more isolationist.....

very doable....but is it what we really want?

iguanaman · Jul 13, 2018

Kal'Stang said:
I have consistently stated that we should reduce our military spending by at least 50% for years now. So no, I do not support Trumps raising of our military spending. If think I do then go find a post of mine that I support Trump increasing our military spending. Go ahead, I'll wait. But I won't hold my breath.

And no, national security is about protecting our whole country, not just our borders and HELPING our allies protect theirs. Every other country in the world manages to do this at 10 times less than the amount that the US does. China being the only one closest to the US at $150BN. (remember, I posted an amount of 600BN and linked to a CNN article that gave an amount of 650BN.)

The fact is that Trump IS increasing our military spending while weakening our alliances and you support Trump. His blather about NATO nations not paying their share will have the opposite effect as he has made it political poison for these nations to bow to Trump's arrogant and rude accusations. Wise up and see it for what it is, another plot cooked up by Putin that will strengthen Russia's hand and could very well lead to the end of NATO.

OlNate · Jul 13, 2018

Kal'Stang said:
I've been saying for years that we should reduce our defense spending. (part of the reason that I support Trumps effort to get our NATO allies to spend more on their defense spending.) There are sooooo many better ways to spend our money than policing the entire world.

I've said this elsewhere, but as a Canadian I completely agree. In fact, I'll go one further, I think NATO should be dismantled entirely, and all global military response run through the UN. While we're at it, let's take away veto power at the UN. But, yes, let's get rid of NATO entirely, that way the Americans can stop spending so much money, they can bring their troops back from around the world, close their bases on foreign soil, and everyone will be happy....right?

Kal'Stang · Jul 13, 2018

iguanaman said:
The fact is that Trump IS increasing our military spending while weakening our alliances and you support Trump. His blather about NATO nations not paying their share will have the opposite effect as he has made it political poison for these nations to bow to Trump's arrogant and rude accusations. Wise up and see it for what it is, another plot cooked up by Putin that will strengthen Russia's hand and could very well lead to the end of NATO.

Ah, you're one of those people that believe that if someone supports X person on Y issue then that someone also supports X person on ALL things.

I hate to tell you this iguanaman but reality does not work that way. There are lots of shades of grey in reality. It is not either black or white.

Kal'Stang · Jul 13, 2018

gdgyva said:
it would be easy to do

shut down most of our bases overseas

cut down on our military fleets

cut our forces by 1/2

worry about protecting ourselves and let the rest of the world protect itself

we could cut defense spending in half.....

go more isolationist.....

very doable....but is it what we really want?

Tell me gdgyva, how is it possible for every country but the US to spend 10 times less on their military defense spending than the US and yet STILL protect their country AND give support to their allies?

Visbek · Jul 13, 2018

Trump's demand for 4% military spending is sheer insanity.

He thinks that you negotiate by pushing for more and more and more, while not giving an inch. As a result, no one is really sure what he wants, and since he keeps moving the goalposts, he becomes unreliable and untrustworthy.

No one should be taking this crap seriously.

iguanaman · Jul 13, 2018

Kal'Stang said:
Ah, you're one of those people that believe that if someone supports X person on Y issue then that someone also supports X person on ALL things.

I hate to tell you this iguanaman but reality does not work that way. There are lots of shades of grey in reality. It is not either black or white.

The reality is that every time Trump opens his mouth we get weaker and Putin gets stronger. Sooner or later you will understand what I have said is true. Trump is a Manchurian candidate who has sold his soul to gain power.

iguanaman · Jul 13, 2018

Visbek said:
Trump's demand for 4% military spending is sheer insanity.

He thinks that you negotiate by pushing for more and more and more, while not giving an inch. As a result, no one is really sure what he wants, and since he keeps moving the goalposts, he becomes unreliable and untrustworthy.

No one should be taking this crap seriously.

You are not yet seeing it for what it is. A plot to weaken the U.S. and strengthen Russia's hand in every way possible. It is all right out of Putin's playbook and Trump is a wiling accomplice.

Andalublue · Jul 13, 2018

chuckiechan said:
Seriously? Putin is on the border in Poland,

And indeed, NATO is on the Russian border in about 6 different countries, yet the Donald tells us that Putin's a peace-loving, friendly guy he can do business with. What business? If it isn't in reducing tension and diverting resources, both west and east, away from military spending, then what good is it?

Iran is developing nukes to aim at us

It wasn't until the Don got involved.

China claims it has the God given right to rob us blind

That economic, not military.

and turn the South China Sea into its personal lake.

You have neither the will nor the military capability to launch a major challenge to China in the SCS, no matter how much you spend. I suspect you'd be fairly gung-ho if China launched major military exercises in the Gulf of Mexico.

Not to mention we are under cyber attack by nearly everyone.

That's a relatively cheap war to wage.

And if Putin decided to roll into Europe we would be called upon to stop them.

Donald assures us that they won't, but if they do NATO has three nuclear-armed members, not one. A Russian invasion of NATO would not remain a land war and, in any case, the burden would be very equally shared.

So yeah, we need a big budget, and we need everyone else to pay their share - tips accepted.

No, you need a much less aggressive FP, a semblance of reasonable and cooperative diplomacy, a return to multilateral peace-keeping and a much lower military spend.

Vox · Jul 13, 2018

TU Curmudgeon said:
From the CBC

Sure, we could spend 4% of GDP on the military — with huge cuts or tax hikes

U.S. President Donald Trump is demanding Canada and other NATO allies boost their military spending to four per cent of their gross domestic product. Canada spends about 1.2 per cent.

Many politicians and analysts have dismissed the demand as outlandish or impossible. Of course Canada could spend four per cent of its GDP. It's the how that makes it difficult.

Trump's claim that NATO will boost defence spending disputed

Start with some basic math. Canada's nominal GDP is $2.1 trillion. Four per cent of that would come in around $84 billion.

Right now Canada spends about $25 billion annually on national defence. The Liberals have promised to increase that to $32 billion. But to reach four per cent, we're talking about an increase in military spending of about $60 billion from today's level.

COMMENT:-

This might give some insight into why the Canadian government doesn't want to turn Canada into a carbon copy of the United States of America - something that is opposed by the vast majority of the Canadian people.

PS - The projected increase in the Canadian defence budget of 70% by 2024 will have Canada spending approximately 2.176% of its GDP on defence.

Trump is a master negotiator......all he's really doing is just old-fashioned Yankee dickering.

He's hoping that by high balling them he will get the deadbeats to at least kick in a little more toward their fair share.

That whole "Mexico will pay for the wall" is the same thing.

Maybe you should read his book?

gdgyva · Jul 13, 2018

Kal'Stang said:
Tell me gdgyva, how is it possible for every country but the US to spend 10 times less on their military defense spending than the US and yet STILL protect their country AND give support to their allies?

because in reality...if the **** really hit the fan...not one of them could protect themselves at all

they RELY on us...

without us, NATO is nothing

without us, China and Russia can steamroll NATO in 48 hours

we have been paying for all of this for way too long....the other countries keep dragging their feet

so lets take our ball, and go home....literally

Sure, we could spend 4% of GDP on the military — with huge cuts or tax hikes

TU Curmudgeon

B.A. (Sarc), LLb. (Lex Sarcasus), PhD (Sarc.)

Kal'Stang

Grand Mal

Russian warship, go f*** yourself!

OrphanSlug

A sinister place...

Andalublue

Hello again!

Kal'Stang

TU Curmudgeon

B.A. (Sarc), LLb. (Lex Sarcasus), PhD (Sarc.)

Kal'Stang

Andalublue

Hello again!

iguanaman

chuckiechan

iguanaman

Kal'Stang

iguanaman

gdgyva

iguanaman

OlNate

Shameless Canuck

Kal'Stang

Kal'Stang

Visbek

Stuck In The Circle

iguanaman

iguanaman

Andalublue

Hello again!

Vox

Voice and Wisdom of God

gdgyva