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Why we need allies

calamity said:
Except it’s true. The right wins elections by losing the presidential popular vote and gerrymandering house districts. It’s the right who suppress votes and want to repeal the 17th amendment.
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You need new sources
 
late said:
Facts.

You know, like the 13 indictments against Russians for election interference. Or the way the Right loved Russian trolling. Or...

https://www.amazon.com/Plot-Hack-Am...preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

A relationship, any relationship, should work as if it was a social savings account. You add a little, you take a little out, you try to maintain a positive balance. You don't bring a damn thing to the table.
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And these indictments prove your point how?
 
Fletch said:
Pointing out the lunacy is not debating the lunacy. But it is good to see you agree with my characterization.
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You are one very confused puppy. Not news.
 
late said:
Still trying to get that square peg into a round hole?
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Well it seems you finally did....huh?

Like I said, ya'll laughed Romney outta the joint when he said it during the debates.

Pretty easy to make the call after the play is finished..... right?
 
Fletch said:
And these indictments prove your point how?
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That Mueller, the intel community agree with me.

Because facts.

Beyond that, you lack the knowledge base to discuss the OP even if you had watched the video.

This looks like passive/aggressive trolling to distract us from the thread topic. I am questioning why I don't have you on Ignore.
 
late said:
Facts.

You know, like the 13 indictments against Russians for election interference. Or the way the Right loved Russian trolling. Or...

A relationship, any relationship, should work as if it was a social savings account. You add a little, you take a little out, you try to maintain a positive balance. You don't bring a damn thing to the table.
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How then does that correlate with our relationship with Israel, our staunchest ally in the Middle East? After all, Obama sent an entire team, headed up by his old campaign manager to try and influence Israelis not to vote for Bibi.

What would you think if Israel collectively indicted Obama and all the Americans who attempted to sway their election? Is that somehow different? Or, do your "social savings accounts" only go one way?
 
Fletch said:
And these indictments prove your point how?
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Are you still pointing out lunacy or are you trying to debate the topic, after all why should they reply to your question when you stated you are not here to debate? Sounds crazy to me
 
calamity said:
Except it’s true. The right wins elections by losing the presidential popular vote and gerrymandering house districts. It’s the right who suppress votes and want to repeal the 17th amendment.
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This part has no relevance given the electoral practice in the US. The bottom line is the electoral college win is the one to be focused on; who won the popular vote won't matter unless the election process is changed. The gerrymandering component is another can of worms, and one that needs to be addressed but not from a partisan perspective.
 
HowardBThiname said:
How then does that correlate with our relationship with Israel, our staunchest ally in the Middle East? After all, Obama sent an entire team, headed up by his old campaign manager to try and influence Israelis not to vote for Bibi.

What would you think if Israel collectively indicted Obama and all the Americans who attempted to sway their election? Is that somehow different? Or, do your "social savings accounts" only go one way?
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That was weird. Try to focus.
 
RetiredUSN said:
Well it seems you finally did....huh?

Like I said, ya'll laughed Romney outta the joint when he said it during the debates.

Pretty easy to make the call after the play is finished..... right?
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If you want to bring up what Romney said and post it, I will respond.

Miracles happen.
 
Casper said:
Well let's look at that statement, under Obama, 2009-2015, he deported 2,500,000 illegals. Does not sound like Catch and Release to me.
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And yet the illegal immigrant population has grown by 2.5 million in Obama's presidency.
Over the last 20 years, 37 percent of all aliens free pending trial failed to appear for their hearings.

But this isn't the point of this thread. So for the sake of not derailing it. I bid this conversation good day.
 
late said:
Stretching your cliches into sentences does not alter their basic nature.

Do yourself a favor, watch the video.
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My statements were still true regardless if you fail to see them. But back on track.

The guy and history gives the Marshal Plan to much credit for the success of the return of the economic engines in Europe. It takes all the credit but doesn't state the obvious that Europe would have eventually rebuilt its economy by its self. The Marshal Plan just gave it a boost, a helping hand. And in return the US was able to gain influence into each governments system to protect from the return of fascism and retaliations, and most importantly against communism. Which to the most successful part of the plan stabilized western Europe into a coalition working together for each others best interests.
 
jdog21 said:
And yet the illegal immigrant population has grown by 2.5 million in Obama's presidency.
Over the last 20 years, 37 percent of all aliens free pending trial failed to appear for their hearings.

But this isn't the point of this thread. So for the sake of not derailing it. I bid this conversation good day.
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Then maybe you should not have brought it up. But agree to leave it at that.
 
jdog21 said:
My statements were still true regardless if you fail to see them. But back on track.

The guy and history gives the Marshal Plan to much credit for the success of the return of the economic engines in Europe. It takes all the credit but doesn't state the obvious that Europe would have eventually rebuilt its economy by its self. The Marshal Plan just gave it a boost, a helping hand. And in return the US was able to gain influence into each governments system to protect from the return of fascism and retaliations, and most importantly against communism. Which to the most successful part of the plan stabilized western Europe into a coalition working together for each others best interests.
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You didn't listen to the whole thing, or didn't understand it. Look for the part where he talks about economists trying to figure out why it worked.

Stalin would have conquered all of europe.
 
jdog21 said:
Utter B.S. We hate socialism, communism, and mob rule. We hate collectivism and group ideology politics.
We love democracy, republics, capitalism, states rights, and individualism.
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None of which exist in the regimes Trump has praised, like Duarte's Philippines, Kim Jong Un's North Korea, or Putin's Russia. Oh, and "state's rights" has been discredited for decades now.
 
jdog21 said:
My statements were still true regardless if you fail to see them. But back on track.

The guy and history gives the Marshal Plan to much credit for the success of the return of the economic engines in Europe. It takes all the credit but doesn't state the obvious that Europe would have eventually rebuilt its economy by its self. The Marshal Plan just gave it a boost, a helping hand. And in return the US was able to gain influence into each governments system to protect from the return of fascism and retaliations, and most importantly against communism. Which to the most successful part of the plan stabilized western Europe into a coalition working together for each others best interests.
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Europe had been totally devastated after the war. People were starving, millions were dead, and a lot of the major cities had basically been leveled. Meanwhile the Russians were stripping anything go value in Eastern Europe to sent back to the Motherland.
 
Fletch said:
You need new sources
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You lost the election by 3 million votes. Fact
GOP gerrymandering has already been found unconstitutional. Fact
GOP is eliminating early voting in and around college campuses across the US. Fact
The only people suggesting that we repeal the 17th Amendment are Republicans. Fact.

That the Right hates democracy is not in doubt. Maybe the person in need of new sources is the low information poster who thinks I am wrong.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Europe had been totally devastated after the war. People were starving, millions were dead, and a lot of the major cities had basically been leveled. Meanwhile the Russians were stripping anything go value in Eastern Europe to sent back to the Motherland.
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I don't think we are having an opposing argument, but more of a parallel one.
 
late said:
You didn't listen to the whole thing, or didn't understand it. Look for the part where he talks about economists trying to figure out why it worked.

Stalin would have conquered all of europe.
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I did actually to the whole hour. Why don't you make points instead of referring me back to the video, its hard to have any productive conversation that way. The part that im guessing you are referring to is when he says the reason it worked was due to the people in the those countries having been democracies before, having a similar view point as Americans do, similar culture to America, and personal aspiration to rebuild.
 
Tigerace117 said:
None of which exist in the regimes Trump has praised, like Duarte's Philippines, Kim Jong Un's North Korea, or Putin's Russia. Oh, and "state's rights" has been discredited for decades now.
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Dictators that we're trying to have a better relationship with often get praised by presidents. It doesn't mean that the presidents values are somehow related to those people that get praise. NK and Russia are better places then they where in the 80's or the 50's. Just not where we would all like them to be. Hopefully they continue to move in the right direction and at a much quicker pace.
States rights have been diminishing for a long time yes and under both political parties, but only one faction still wants to help preserve it and that's a faction within the republican party.
 
jdog21 said:
I did actually to the whole hour. Why don't you make points instead of referring me back to the video, its hard to have any productive conversation that way. The part that im guessing you are referring to is when he says the reason it worked was due to the people in the those countries having been democracies before, having a similar view point as Americans do, similar culture to America, and personal aspiration to rebuild.
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Think of it as the beginning of the EU. Somebody in France wanted a guarantee that they wouldn't get screwed by somebody in Germany, without recourse. We were binding the world together.

Part of that was also the physical security, as I implied, that Stalin wouldn't move into the neighborhood.
 
jdog21 said:
Dictators that we're trying to have a better relationship with often get praised by presidents. It doesn't mean that the presidents values are somehow related to those people that get praise. NK and Russia are better places then they where in the 80's or the 50's. Just not where we would all like them to be. Hopefully they continue to move in the right direction and at a much quicker pace.
States rights have been diminishing for a long time yes and under both political parties, but only one faction still wants to help preserve it and that's a faction within the republican party.
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Oh really? North Korea is still the same old totalitarian hellhole. Putin is better than Stalin( very few people are worse than Stalin) but he's still KGB through and through. Fawning all over dictators doesn't work; it just makes the US seem weak. Add to that the constant attacks on actual US allies and Trump seems to have gotten foreign policy flipped upside down.

States' rights have been diminishing because they've turned out to be nothing more than attempts to preserve unconstitutional and racist policy like Jim Crow.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Oh really? North Korea is still the same old totalitarian hellhole. Putin is better than Stalin( very few people are worse than Stalin) but he's still KGB through and through. Fawning all over dictators doesn't work; it just makes the US seem weak. Add to that the constant attacks on actual US allies and Trump seems to have gotten foreign policy flipped upside down.

States' rights have been diminishing because they've turned out to be nothing more than attempts to preserve unconstitutional and racist policy like Jim Crow.
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Ya states can sometime enact unconstitutional laws but its up to the rest of us to say hey (insert state) that's unconstitutional and you can not do that. But you don't scrap state rights from doing their own thing. You don't want to turn a federation of states into a singular province. People in Florida don't have the same values or culture or economy or industrialization as the people in Montana. This allows people to leave states where they think the laws are tyrannical and can move to a state that enjoys the same freedoms that they wish to have. Or for people to move to a place that has more restrictions and regulations. The idea is one group doesn't get to impose their sets of ideas on to the other group. The federal government set foreign affairs and the bare minimum for all states to follow, then each state restricts it even further if they so choose to.
 
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