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China gets serious

Mycroft said:
All China has to do is sit down, talk to us and honestly try to work out a deal.

If they don't want to do that...well...the trade war continues and they will suffer more than we will.

btw, why on earth should the US support China's dreams of "Made in China 2025" by allowing them to demand/steal our technology?
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Per-Capita GDP in China: $8138 USD
Per-Capita GDP in the United States: $57,466 USD

Now how do you figure we would ever not have a significant trade deficit with a country whose citizens have about 1/5 the purchasing power per average household that our average households do?

The typical Chinese family cannot afford to buy near as much of our stuff as we can buy of their stuff. It's that simple. We buy 500 billion worth of their stuff, and they buy 130 billion worth of our stuff. That is about how you would figure it would work out when you account for the huge differences in average household income between our two countries. Particularly considering that they can produce their stuff domestically for domestic consumption much cheaper than we can produce stuff to sell to them.

Thus the shear stupidity of engaging in a trade war with them.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Per-Capita GDP in China: $8138 USD
Per-Capita GDP in the United States: $57,466 USD

Now how do you figure we would ever not have a significant trade deficit with a country whose citizens have about 1/5 the purchasing power per average household that our average households do?

The typical Chinese family cannot afford to buy near as much of our stuff as we can buy of their stuff. It's that simple. We buy 500 billion worth of their stuff, and they buy 130 billion worth of our stuff. That is about how you would figure it would work out when you account for the huge differences in average household income between our two countries. Particularly considering that they can produce their stuff domestically for domestic consumption much cheaper than we can produce stuff to sell to them.

Thus the shear stupidity of engaging in a trade war with them.
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The Chinese government deliberately prevents the US from competing for the dollars that the Chinese people have. Trump is simply asking the Chinese government to not do that. He's asking the Chinese government to ALLOW American companies to compete. To try to sell stuff to the Chinese people.

There is no guarantee that the US can make a pile of money from the Chinese...but at this point, we can't even try.

"Free and reciprocal trade"
 
Mycroft said:
I think that's what YOU are doing. I think you are projecting yourself onto the world.
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Nope... my opinions are supported by a parade of financial experts...I know, I know, what do those experts know, right? hehe
 
Mycroft said:
The Chinese government deliberately prevents the US from competing for the dollars that the Chinese people have. Trump is simply asking the Chinese government to not do that. He's asking the Chinese government to ALLOW American companies to compete. To try to sell stuff to the Chinese people.

There is no guarantee that the US can make a pile of money from the Chinese...but at this point, we can't even try.

"Free and reciprocal trade"
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GM with its various partnerships in China sells more card in China than the US and gets about a third of its annual profit from its operations in China
 
SheWolf said:
I keep wondering why China is being so patient. They have so much more weight to pull than Trump.
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China thinks long term for its planning and I expect going "nuclear" could disrupt long term goals for what might be a short term problem.

If Democrats get control over one of the two houses in the mid terms then Trump might get neutered and the issue could go away.

I am sure Canada and the EU are using the same strategy and that is why Trump is pushing so hard right now. He wants a win before the democrats could potentially shut him down
 
Actually the solution to this trade war problem is to adopt free trade with Europe and the rest of the world. Something that Trump proposed during the G7 summit. That way China would be forced to adopt free trade and drop all of it's cheating tactics in predatory economics. So what I am saying is there is a bright side to what Trump is trying to accomplish despite the feather ruffling. He is essentially raising the stakes while offering a way out to all parties involved. Typical Trump tactics. This is the best time to do it too, while the US economy is strong and everyone else is heading for a slow down.
 
China has seen exceptional growth for decades but the truth is much of this growth have been built on debt. They have been relatively quiet of late as Trumps trade "war" finally start to have an effect.
In Australia (I think also the US) we've had jobs growth in the last financial quarter, however, I wonder how long it will take before we start feeling the slowing in our export orders... maybe not until the end of the year, just in time for Christmas. Better strap yourselves in.

A China Borrower’s $11 Billion Debt Mountain Comes Crashing Down

China this month recorded one of its biggest corporate-debt defaults yet, with the downfall of a coal miner that had ridden the country’s wave of credit until policy makers changed the game with their deleveraging campaign.

For investors in Wintime Energy Co., it’s been far from a winning time now that the company from northern Shanxi province is proving incapable of rolling over debt that quadrupled in less than five years. How the borrower ran up a 72.2 billion yuan ($10.8 billion) tab that it now can’t make good on illustrates why this year will be China’s worst yet for corporate defaults. And with a potential lifeline from state-owned banks unveiled Wednesday, it could also emerge as an example of China’s unwillingness to allow unbridled corporate failures.
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-18/a-china-borrower-s-11-billion-debt-mountain-comes-crashing-down
 
ok so this is what happened overnight vvv Interesting I was reading about an eBay style system in China where people can purchase bad loans, ie. CNY1million for CNY5000 and if the loan is repaid they clearly make a bucketload of money, you'd have to be a pretty big gambler to do this as the odds of repayment is tiny.

Collapse of Chinese peer-to-peer lenders sparks investor panic

A wave of*defaults is sweeping across China’s Rmb1.3tn ($190bn) peer-to-peer lending industry, causing investors to withdraw funds and platforms to collapse, the latest casualties of Beijing’s broader crackdown on debt and financial risk.*

About 150 online lending platforms have suffered “problems” since the beginning of June this year, compared with 217 such cases in all of 2017, according to Online Lending House, a research group that tracks the industry.

The group defines “problems” as investors being unable to withdraw money, police investigating a platform, or owners running away.*

In the wealthy city of Hangzhou, local officials converted two sporting stadiums into makeshift welcome centres where various district-level petition bureaus — the traditional channel for Chinese citizens to file miscellaneous grievances — could receive complaints from P2P investors. Hangzhou is best known as the headquarters of Alibaba, its finance affiliate Ant Financial, and other fintech groups.

At the end of June there were 1,836 online lending platforms operating in China. The industry, the largest of its kind in the world, channelled loans from 4.1m investors to 4.3m borrowers in June alone, according to Online Lending House.*
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https://www.ft.com/content/75e75628-8b27-11e8-bf9e-8771d5404543
 
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Sorry I'm hogging the thread but this is too good not to share, the Trump effect on the Shanghai Composite, I think it's clear who's ahead in the trade war at this point, however likely scenario is China will slump first and then the rest of us at varying degrees depending on our exposure to China

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Lovebug said:
May be Trump exposed that we are now at the mercy of China. Who's fault is that again?
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I'm going to laugh if you say "Obama" or "Democrats".
When Sam Walton died, he left this world believing that his cherished Wal-Mart, the proverbial 800 lb gorilla of the retail world, would continue to take pride in selling goods that were mostly "MADE IN USA".
Old man Walton, who wore blue jeans, work shirts and a trademark Wal-Mart ball cap and drove an old Ford F150 pickup truck even as a billionaire several times over, was barely cold in the ground when his kids kicked that idea to the curb.

Good-bye MADE IN USA, hello MADE IN CHINA.
One of the very first skirmishes Wal-Mart instigated was the Rubbermaid massacre, which ultimately ended with the tiny town of Wooster, Ohio losing almost a third of its employed workforce at Rubbermaid and a Chinese factory owner purchasing injection mold machines to make Rubbermaid knockoffs in China for sale to Wal-Mart.

That first shot across the bow happened in the mid-1990's right after Walton's passing but it was only the first of hundreds of demands made to manufacturers. Either do it Wal-Mart's way, at Wal-Mart's price or we'll put your company out of business and pick a Chinese manufacturer instead.

Today, 80 percent of the merchandise sold in Wal-Mart, and in other big box retail chains, is made in China.
By 2023, it's estimated that the company will spend just 3.2 percent on American-made goods.
When Sam Walton was alive, it was the exact opposite. Local retailers might have complained about Wal-Mart's economies of scale but American manufacturers secretly thanked their lucky stars if they landed a contract to sell to Sam Walton.

Today, American manufacturers curse his children for destroying the livelihood of thousands of small manufacturing towns all across the USA.
Those jobs will never come back to these shores, and even if they did, most of them would be fully automated, and we're currently not in any mood to pay for American kids to get affordable high tech training as an investment in our future, because in today's America, high tech education is a luxury, not an investment in our future.

And Wal-Mart is just the LARGEST retail chain to be in love with China, but it is by far not the only one.
 
late said:
China doesn't want to go there. But if Trump keeps acting like an evil Forest Gump, they will eventually dump dollars. The economy then goes to hell.
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They can do a helluva lot more than just dump dollars.
The Chinese might be playing at the game of state sanctioned command capitalism but China at its heart is still very much a Communist dictatorship and as you know, the Communists love those "five year plans", don't they?

If Trump continues to behave like a belligerent bully, China may very well just decide to embark on a five year plan to lay waste to the American round-eyed beast, even if their five year plan calls for dire sacrifice and near destitution for hundreds of millions of Chinese workers and their families.

China has done extreme 180 degree flip-flops from relative posterity to severe austerity several times in the modern era, and there's nothing to stop China's leadership from instituting another five year round of austerity, packaged as "a period of GREAT sacrifice by the Chinese people to tame the unruly Western imperialists."

Such a plan may very well call for curtailment of most if not all manufacturing for America for a period of time, just enough to empty store shelves all across the nation, just enough to cause the loss of millions of jobs, just enough to cause massive world record shortages of everyday essential goods, just enough to knock an Exocet missile sized hole in the US economy and set it on a path to capsize.
Just enough to cause mass hysteria, civil unrest and the near breakdown of law and order.

And in the end, America will awake to find that it is largely irrelevant to the rest of the world.
There will be no return to "the way things were before".
 
cuban smokes said:
"wars are good and easy to win" ................. that is the Trump mantra

I told folks long before the 2016 POTUS general election: If Trump becomes POTUS he will wreck the economy.

People thought I was crazy .................... oh, well ................
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And you were wrong.
 
HERA the Stars said:
Sorry I'm hogging the thread but this is too good not to share, the Trump effect on the Shanghai Composite, I think it's clear who's ahead in the trade war at this point, however likely scenario is China will slump first and then the rest of us at varying degrees depending on our exposure to China

191022-15322181024484334.png
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Soybeans are down over 20%, just for starters. Farmers don't give a damn about your stock market moronic nonsense.
 
Linc said:
Red-state farmers wish to disagree with you.
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If you look hard enough, you'll always find some group or thing in the economy to complain about. Congress is working on a farm bill to help farmers out. Farming is also a very diverse group. Some sell cash crops, some grow crops for their cattle, some raise cattle or other animals and buy their feed, some work 1,000's of acres while others work very little or even none. Also, trade wars or trade battles (many experts would not call what we are in right now a trade war but I don't care what it's called) often come at a short-term expense for a long-term gain. Overall, though, the economy is doing well, even with your zinger.
 
Linc said:
Soybeans are down over 20%, just for starters. Farmers don't give a damn about your stock market moronic nonsense.
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That has something to do with more soybeans being planted this year as well. Soybeans aren't very useful to us, either, so this isn't exactly a great indicator for the overall economy. This shows the desperation you are at to try to show an obviously strong economy is weak. Try harder.
 
FreeWits said:
And you were wrong.
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as long as Trump is POTUS he has plenty of opportunity to wreck the economy & he will

Last time I checked he is still POTUS

Just wait 'til 'Private Bone Spurs' starts one of his dumb ass, useless wars that he is chomping at the bit to get going; that alone will kill the economy ..........
 
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late said:
" Should the US now impose tariffs on imports of another 200 billion, China will extend the conflict to other fields,” quoting Mao Zedong’s dictum, “You fight your war your way, and I will fight mine my way.”...

But in the US, the financial sector plays a much bigger role than in China. In that sense, the US is vulnerable here, so of course, that’s an option.” Der Spiegel asked, “Wouldn’t China hurt itself if it sold its dollar reserves?...

“In good times, our way of competing is to try to grow faster than the US. But when times get bad, it’s about who loses the most. That would be a financial war – and what such a financial war between the two largest economies looks like is probably beyond our imagination.”

A tragedy in the making as the US confronts China | Asia Times

China doesn't want to go there. But if Trump keeps acting like an evil Forest Gump, they will eventually dump dollars. The economy then goes to hell.
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What do you advocate doing?

In my opinion, China deserves every bit of this.... in my opinion we should cease all trade to China whatsoever, actually.

I am curious if you are aware how poorly China treats US business in it's country and how much economic crime and aggression they do against the the USA?
 
celticwar17 said:
What do you advocate doing?

In my opinion, China deserves every bit of this.... in my opinion we should cease all trade to China whatsoever, actually.

I am curious if you are aware how poorly China treats US business in it's country and how much economic crime and aggression they do against the the USA?
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LOFL ............................ un****ing believable ...........
 
cuban smokes said:
LOFL ............................ un****ing believable ...........
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It's true. I've advocated for this way before Trump. China is the most dangerous country in the world. We shouldn't enable them any longer... move all our manufacturing and trade elsewhere in Asia.
 
celticwar17 said:
It's true. I've advocated for this way before Trump. China is the most dangerous country in the world. We shouldn't enable them any longer... move all our manufacturing and trade elsewhere in Asia.
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what about ALL of the Trump family's **** that is made in China, Donny's MAGOT hats, Ivanka's fashion line, the Trump Doll Butt Plug; ALL made in China ........
 
cuban smokes said:
what about ALL of the Trump family's **** that is made in China, Donny's MAGOT hats, Ivanka's fashion line, the Trump Doll Butt Plug; ALL made in China ........
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That is great for them I guess, but I personally don't give two cents where Trump's family makes their crap.

Why would you think I care?
 
celticwar17 said:
That is great for them I guess, but I personally don't give two cents where Trump's family makes their crap.
Why would you think I care?
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Perhaps he could lead by example? I know that's far-fetched, just saying, the best leaders I know typically led by example in more ways than one.
 
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