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Germany edges toward Chinese-style rating of citizens

ChezC3

ChezC3

Relentless Thinking Fury
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What are you worth? Today your answer might be based on what you earn, the price of your belongings or how much your family loves you. But in the near future, you may well be valued in a different way altogether – and your online behavior most certainly will be.

“We live in a world where judgment is being replaced by numbers – by scores that calculate the value of a human being, with the help of algorithms,” says Gerd Gigerenzer, director of the Harding Center for Risk Literacy at the Max Planck Institute for Human Development in Berlin. Mr. Gigerenzer also heads a council of experts on consumer affairs that advises the German Ministry of Justice. The panel is currently working on a report on this topic.

Being assessed by algorithms is advancing in China, where an experiment in what is being called a “social credit system” is underway, the professor of psychology and behavioral sciences specialist says. The Chinese system, which uses a combination of mass surveillance and big data to score citizens, is currently voluntary but it will be mandatory by 2020. At that stage, every citizen and company will be ranked whether they like it or not.
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https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/germany-mass-surveillance-social-credit-china-big-data-886786?ref=MTA5NDE2&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=post

This is insane.
 
Based on their system, you two guys are worthless. Okay, I'm worthless too. Who in their right mind would buy into this? China doesn't count. They don't have a "right" mind. But Germany? C'mon Germany. With WWII in the rear view mirror, do you really want to go back down that road?
 
Not Surprising whatsoever in the pursuit of socialist utopia.
 
ChezC3 said:
https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/germany-mass-surveillance-social-credit-china-big-data-886786?ref=MTA5NDE2&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=post

This is insane.
Click to expand...

The only difference between the West and China here is that up to now, the ratings haven't been slightly more decentralized (e.g. report cards, credit ratings, criminal justice system records and/or word of mouth in the police department) and totally private.

All the same, this is something to fight and is definitely creeping fascism. The thing is, Germany has a culture that will probably support this in the end. So I suspect we will see this invariably being implemented in some form or another there.

That being said, I can only find this article as the source for it's claim. With all of the fake news running around, a bit of skepticism may be warranted.
 
Well, thats a really bad development, but I would not agree that Germany becomes as the author fears. For such a thing of totalitarian transparency does not exist a majoritiy and I believe not even a big minority. By the way does the political system of Germany have very strict rules in its constitution as well as the EU has. However it is important to look how the development in China is and how authoritarian they implement this contentious system.
 
Sebastian F said:
Well, thats a really bad development, but I would not agree that Germany becomes as the author fears. For such a thing of totalitarian transparency does not exist a majoritiy and I believe not even a big minority. By the way does the political system of Germany have very strict rules in its constitution as well as the EU has. However it is important to look how the development in China is and how authoritarian they implement this contentious system.
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Yeah I agree with you. Germany has very strict privacy laws, better than the US, and it's something they take very seriously. A private citizen claiming to "advise the German Ministry of Justice" saying he thinks the country is going 1984, when all evidence points to the contrary. People fish out the news articles that confirm their biases.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Yeah I agree with you. Germany has very strict privacy laws, better than the US, and it's something they take very seriously. A private citizen claiming to "advise the German Ministry of Justice" saying he thinks the country is going 1984, when all evidence points to the contrary. People fish out the news articles that confirm their biases.
Click to expand...

What bias is that?

partisan hacks, I tell ya...

:lamo

Here, another article from the same pub saying as much what you said...

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/why-germans-are-so-private-about-their-data-819492

However...from the article...

Despite the general anxiety, the German public is not exactly shunning Facebook and Google. Google has almost 92 percent of the search-engine market share in Germany. Statista reports that nearly 39 million Germans use Facebook. “It is unreasonable to not use these networks – they’re part of our social world now,” said Mr. Glatzner, adding that this makes organizations such as his own more important for the average consumer.
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No one has to necessarily take when it is given freely.
 
It is a Black Mirror episode.
 
FieldTheorist said:
The only difference between the West and China here is that up to now, the ratings haven't been slightly more decentralized (e.g. report cards, credit ratings, criminal justice system records and/or word of mouth in the police department) and totally private.

All the same, this is something to fight and is definitely creeping fascism. The thing is, Germany has a culture that will probably support this in the end. So I suspect we will see this invariably being implemented in some form or another there.

That being said, I can only find this article as the source for it's claim. With all of the fake news running around, a bit of skepticism may be warranted.
Click to expand...
I agree but would replace your word fascism with communism. After all China is communist.
 
ChezC3 said:
What bias is that?

partisan hacks, I tell ya...

:lamo

Here, another article from the same pub saying as much what you said...

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/why-germans-are-so-private-about-their-data-819492

However...from the article...




No one has to necessarily take when it is given freely.
Click to expand...

Oh wow, so you're saying Germany, like virtually every country including the US uses Facebook and Google a lot? You're right, that's JUST like communist China. You know except for the part that Facebook and Google are banned in China and the privacy violations are committed by the government.

Germany and the EU in general have dramatically better privacy laws than the US and the government actively regulates and fights corporations on privacy issues. Your pathetic and slanderous attempt to connect the German government with China's is a massive fail. No German politician has suggested some social rating system nor have any laws been passed doing anything of the sort.

Harshaw said:
It's a dystopian nightmare, really.
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humbolt said:
Based on their system, you two guys are worthless. Okay, I'm worthless too. Who in their right mind would buy into this? China doesn't count. They don't have a "right" mind. But Germany? C'mon Germany. With WWII in the rear view mirror, do you really want to go back down that road?
Click to expand...

celticwar17 said:
Not Surprising whatsoever in the pursuit of socialist utopia.
Click to expand...

Let see:
Post 1) Calls Germany a dystopia
Post 2) Refers to nazis
Post 3) Calls them socialists

All fom people that didn't even read the article, much less comprehend it or verify its accuracy.

Germany does not have a social rating system. Schufa is identical in nearly every way to the US credit agencies and has nothing to do with the government. China's program is run by the government and actually exists. The article quotes a private citizen saying he worries it might become like China without providing any evidence to support that ridiculous assertion. Any criticism you can Lob against German credit rating agencies you can lodge against US credit agencies, yet the US agencies just had a massive security breach exposing personal information of hundreds of millions of Americans. You should be far more worried about Americans' privacy.
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
Oh wow, so you're saying Germany, like virtually every country including the US uses Facebook and Google a lot? You're right, that's JUST like communist China. You know except for the part that Facebook and Google are banned in China and the privacy violations are committed by the government.

Germany and the EU in general have dramatically better privacy laws than the US and the government actively regulates and fights corporations on privacy issues. Your pathetic and slanderous attempt to connect the German government with China's is a massive fail. No German politician has suggested some social rating system nor have any laws been passed doing anything of the sort.







Let see:
Post 1) Calls Germany a dystopia
Post 2) Refers to nazis
Post 3) Calls them socialists

All fom people that didn't even read the article, much less comprehend it or verify its accuracy.

Germany does not have a social rating system. Schufa is identical in nearly every way to the US credit agencies and has nothing to do with the government. China's program is run by the government and actually exists. The article quotes a private citizen saying he worries it might become like China without providing any evidence to support that ridiculous assertion. Any criticism you can Lob against German credit rating agencies you can lodge against US credit agencies, yet the US agencies just had a massive security breach exposing personal information of hundreds of millions of Americans. You should be far more worried about Americans' privacy.
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Damn man, where did you get all that straw?

What I wrote is what I said, the rest is a figment of your imagination.

:lamo
 
ChezC3 said:
Damn man, where did you get all that straw?

What I wrote is what I said, the rest is a figment of your imagination.

:lamo
Click to expand...

Literally all you wrote was that Germans use Facebook and Google a lot. How that has anything whatsoever to do with Chinese style government censorship and spying is completely and totally unexplained. Are you really derailing your own thread? Wtf does Facebook and Google have to do with China?

How about instead of just lazily making these stupid comparisons you actually explain them. Tell us how the private credit agency Schufa is Chinese style privacy invasion but the private credit agencies in the US aren't.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Literally all you wrote was that Germans use Facebook and Google a lot. How that has anything whatsoever to do with Chinese style government censorship and spying is completely and totally unexplained. Are you really derailing your own thread? Wtf does Facebook and Google have to do with China?

How about instead of just lazily making these stupid comparisons you actually explain them. Tell us how the private credit agency Schufa is Chinese style privacy invasion but the private credit agencies in the US aren't.
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No, that's literally not all I wrote. It doesn't have anything to do with China, haven't the foggiest as to where you came up with that. It does have to do with Germans use of social media in which the tech corps being used are known compilers of personal data.(and algorithms) Which then ties in to my comment about governments or corporations not having to take the personal data because in using social media and internet search engines that personal data is being freely given. No, I'm not derailing my own thread, I'm patiently dealing with a cantankerous individual who clearly is trying to derail it or it is that he can't comprehend what is being said in spite of the context clues given. Don't worry, I will spoon feed it to you....

RabidAlpaca said
Yeah I agree with you. Germany has very strict privacy laws, better than the US, and it's something they take very seriously. A private citizen claiming to "advise the German Ministry of Justice" saying he thinks the country is going 1984, when all evidence points to the contrary. People fish out the news articles that confirm their biases.
Click to expand...

ChezC3 said

What bias is that? I displayed no bias, unless using the english page of a German pro EU pro Globalist website construes bias, but we both know that's not the direction your pendulum was swinging

partisan hacks, I tell ya...this means you



Here, another article from the same pub saying as much what you said... Showing agreement in a general way as it regards germans and their government being protective of their privacy

https://global.handelsblatt.com/poli...ir-data-819492

However...from the article...but with one caveat

Despite the general anxiety, the German public is not exactly shunning Facebook and Google. Google has almost 92 percent of the search-engine market share in Germany. Statista reports that nearly 39 million Germans use Facebook. “It is unreasonable to not use these networks – they’re part of our social world now,” said Mr. Glatzner, adding that this makes organizations such as his own more important for the average consumer.
Click to expand...

No one has to necessarily take when it is given freely. This is me commenting that Germans love their privacy but Google and Facebook, two of the biggest, well known data collectors are widely used.
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It's not so much that I'm lazy as it is that I don't suffer fools. I'm not in the habit of regurgitating what can be read nor am I in the habit of drawing conclusions or creating opinions for other people. (despite the apparent necessity for some)

The article, who extensively quoted an well respected, published, and awarded professor who is heading up a study on all of this (if you read the article you'd know this) who you flippantly refer to as "A private citizen claiming to "advise the German Ministry of Justice"" was pretty clear in its content, requiring little from me in additional commentary or having to provide further explanation. As such, I offered none and instead left it open for discussion.

You've got to do the heavy lifting and think for yourself I'm afraid. I won't do it for you, but I will offer this bit of advice -- If you have nothing meaningful to contribute other than half ass insults and baseless opinions than you should refrain from commenting on threads in general and mine in particular.
 
ChezC3 said:
No, that's literally not all I wrote. It doesn't have anything to do with China, haven't the foggiest as to where you came up with that. It does have to do with Germans use of social media in which the tech corps being used are known compilers of personal data.(and algorithms) Which then ties in to my comment about governments or corporations not having to take the personal data because in using social media and internet search engines that personal data is being freely given. No, I'm not derailing my own thread, I'm patiently dealing with a cantankerous individual who clearly is trying to derail it or it is that he can't comprehend what is being said in spite of the context clues given. Don't worry, I will spoon feed it to you....

RabidAlpaca said


ChezC3 said



It's not so much that I'm lazy as it is that I don't suffer fools. I'm not in the habit of regurgitating what can be read nor am I in the habit of drawing conclusions or creating opinions for other people. (despite the apparent necessity for some)

The article, who extensively quoted an well respected, published, and awarded professor who is heading up a study on all of this (if you read the article you'd know this) who you flippantly refer to as "A private citizen claiming to "advise the German Ministry of Justice"" was pretty clear in its content, requiring little from me in additional commentary or having to provide further explanation. As such, I offered none and instead left it open for discussion.

You've got to do the heavy lifting and think for yourself I'm afraid. I won't do it for you, but I will offer this bit of advice -- If you have nothing meaningful to contribute other than half ass insults and baseless opinions than you should refrain from commenting on threads in general and mine in particular.
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No, chez, social media like Facebook and Google in Germany are not like Chinese style government spying, nor is there anything resembling a social ranking. If there were, it would apply to everywhere, not just Germany. Well, everyone except China who has neither of those two social media sites.

Massive fail. It was a stupid comparison from someone unable to point out a real connection.
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
No, chez, social media like Facebook and Google in Germany are not like Chinese style government spying, nor is there anything resembling a social ranking. If there were, it would apply to everywhere, not just Germany. Well, everyone except China who has neither of those two social media sites.

Massive fail. It was a stupid comparison from someone unable to point out a real connection.
Click to expand...

No one said they were except you.

No one has failed, except you.
 
ChezC3 said:
No one said they were except you.

No one has failed, except you.
Click to expand...

Your thread is entitled : Germany edges toward Chinese-style rating of citizens

No, it doesn't. There are no social media ratings like Facebook or Google that have any effect in real life. I didn't get denied service at the bakery thus morning because my Facebook score wasn't high enough.

If you had actually read the article before you made the dumbass comparison to China you'd know it was but Schufa, a private CREDIT RATING agency that is much more regulated than the American equivalents.

So nows the time for you to out up or shut up. Show us the German social ratings that resemble China's. You can't so you won't.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Your thread is entitled : Germany edges toward Chinese-style rating of citizens

No, it doesn't. There are no social media ratings like Facebook or Google that have any effect in real life. I didn't get denied service at the bakery thus morning because my Facebook score wasn't high enough.

If you had actually read the article before you made the dumbass comparison to China you'd know it was but Schufa, a private CREDIT RATING agency that is much more regulated than the American equivalents.

So nows the time for you to out up or shut up. Show us the German social ratings that resemble China's. You can't so you won't.
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You're grasping at straws now..... :lamo

The thread title is the same as the article's. If you read the article, you'd know that.

You're arguing against imaginary opponents.

I didn't make the comparison, I'm not too sure what it will take for you to lock that down, but I'm rooting for you brewster...:sarcasticclap

Do you think if you keep repeating the same dumbass false accusations that some how, some way, as if by magic they'll turn true? :lamo
 
ChezC3 said:
You're grasping at straws now..... :lamo

The thread title is the same as the article's. If you read the article, you'd know that.

You're arguing against imaginary opponents.

I didn't make the comparison, I'm not too sure what it will take for you to lock that down, but I'm rooting for you brewster...:sarcasticclap

Do you think if you keep repeating the same dumbass false accusations that some how, some way, as if by magic they'll turn true? :lamo
Click to expand...

So two pages later and you can't provide ONE example as to how Germany is like China. Fascinating that you post an article saying it says something it doesn't then can't even be bothered to use your own words to back up your laughably stupid statements.

We're still waiting for the connection, make it for us. How are Germans socially rated and by whom? Shouldn't be hard if you're not full of ****.
 
iguanaman said:
Not for a long time. China has far more entrepreneurs than we do and their middle class is growing at double digit rates. They do have a totalitarian Govt. but it is not a communist system at all.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/chinas-rising-middle-class-will-create-opportunities-the-world-has-never-seen-before-2015-5
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I dont care how good people have it over there. The facts are China is communist. Since the 80's they may have moved away from Maoist beliefs but that doesnt make their system less communist.
 
ChezC3: may be I´m a little bit stupid or too bad in English, but if you did not say this and did not say that - would you please tell me in easy words (I´m stupid, you know) what you want to say about this country? If it´s not what Rabid said, I don´t get it.
 
german hick said:
ChezC3: may be I´m a little bit stupid or too bad in English, but if you did not say this and did not say that - would you please tell me in easy words (I´m stupid, you know) what you want to say about this country? If it´s not what Rabid said, I don´t get it.
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He knows damn well what he's insinuating because it's even in the title of the thread. Problem is he's too much of a coward to explain the connection or defend his laughably misinformed position.
 
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