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What will bitcoin bring in the end?

Whatever fits your determinism.

That would be physics and math and not me. I can not make "determinism" as I am no god. But one could argue 2 + 2 = 4 is a deterministic outcome.



Bitcoin is a grate game for a day gamble trade.

:lol: Why would one do that? That is far more risky for a person with no experiencing as a currency trader than say... the *many* people that bough Bitcoin at $0.10 and held their Bitcoin for years and then sold some or all of them when Bitcoin had finally reached $600 per coin or $15,000 per coin

Myself, as a long term investment I'm investing in Gold and Oil, because they are going up when the bitcoin bubble pops.

Gold and oil are great. Nothing wrong in investing in those things and probably wise. Nothing wrong with a person diversifying and putting $10,000 or $20 into some Crypto if they want, including Bitcoin. It is even possible for a person to put 99% of their investment in gold and 1% in some crypto. It's not like an all or nothing thing is the only choice a person has.

But most importantly: do as you want. If you don't feel good about Bitcoin or any crypto then by all means don't buy any.


By the way... I give big props to Peter Schiff. But I think when it comes to computer science I'll trust this guy below more on the issue of computer science (he also as an attribute of a high IQ genius--in that many of these high IQ types can get obsessed with something, spending nearly every waking hour studying the thing they get obsessed with until they figure out what they are trying to figure out).



aantonop
Published on Dec 23, 2017

In this talk, Andreas reviews the early history of Bitcoin, the distributed computing problems it aimed to solve, the governance implications for centralised financial institutions, and why this transformation is far more interesting than market price fluctuations.

This talk which took place at Pebble Beach for the Capgemini CXO Forum on November 1-3rd 2017 in Monterey, California.
 
False what now?

Just what I said... you're a false saint. You are in thespian mode acting on stage that the reason you are a zealot against Bitcoin is because Bitcoin "only brings tears," I believe was your words.

The spreading of casinos across the United States, with gamblers that run up huge debts, that brings tears too. But you are not zealot campaigning against that.

Example: https://www.alternet.org/how-gambling-can-kill-you-faster-drug-abuse-or-alcoholism


For the majority of addictions, how much you spend is regulated by how much the body can endure. There is only so much heroin, cocaine or vodka you can consume before you end up in a hospital or a morgue. Gambling is subject to no such constraints. “The amount of financial devastation you can wreak plays a big role in this,” says Keith Whyte, the NCPG Executive Director. “You can bet $50,000 in a single hand, every minute.”Suicide rates among gambling addicts are staggeringly high. The National Council on Problem Gambling (NCPG) has estimated that one in five problem gamblers attempt to kill themselves, about twice the rate of other addictions.

None of these figures, though, get to the heart of the issue like the following passage, which was posted on the NCPG website: “I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to tell my husband that once again we have a major credit card bill on the way. I swore to him that it would never happen again. I believed my vow, especially when I saw how hard he had to work to pay off the last debt I ran up. How can I tell him I've done it again?”






Huh?

First of all, your attempt at Whataboutism is flat-out rejected. You have no idea of my opinion about casinos, nor is it relevant to the topic. Double for religious views.

Second, you are here touting the greatness of Bitcoin as the savior of the global economy, and I'm responding by pointing out major flaws to BTC and similar cryptocurrencies. Meaning that you have failed to address any of the points I've raised.

Third, ad hominem attacks only further illustrate that you are unable to refute my points.

Huh, what? You read me. I know your objection--if any--to the spread of legally operating casinos across the USA, and the whole city of Las Vegas, plummets in fire and zeal to your rabid views of even a person with no gambling addiction putting $20 in Bitcoin or any Crypto and letting it sit for weeks, months, years. Yet, there are people in Milwaukee going down to Patowatomi Casino sitting for hours in front of a slot machine doing nothing but feeding it hundreds of dollars worth of coins.

So, your opposition is not against Americans exposing themselves to irrational levels of risk, but rather your mere emotional contempt for Bitcoin. Let me guess... you blasted Bitcoin when it was going for say... $40 a coin and told people with your cocky, know-it-all attitude, that not one damn chance in hell would Bitcoin ever sell for $15,000 a coin? And now that you found you were wrong you'll double down enraged.

Hey... I believe you said in this thread Bitcoin only brings tears (as in sorrow and not joy)? Did it bring tears to this young kid below?



After $100,000 bitcoin score, 15-year-old creates startup



This High-School Dropout Who Invested In Bitcoin At $12 Is Now A Millionaire At 18 | CNBC

Seems like a bright kid to me. When it came to Bitcoin seems like the objective end result is this: he made a smart decision than you or I and seized a good opportunity at a right time to buy Bitcoin when it so so cheap.


ol

This is not about my personal decisions about speculative investments.

Yes it is.

You're here decrying how BTC fell to the speculators;

Strawman, never did any such thing, in fact I've repeated numerous times I don't give a f__ about speculators in Bitcoin.
 
Just what I said... you're a false saint. You are in thespian mode acting on stage that the reason you are a zealot against Bitcoin is because Bitcoin "only brings tears," I believe was your words.
Again, "saint?" I do not think that word means what you think it means.

My point is that Bitcoin, by its very structure, is prone to speculation and bubbles. That's going to cause a lot of pain and suffering. We've seen this, over and over, for hundreds of years.


Huh, what? You read me. I know your objection--if any--to the spread of legally operating casinos across the USA, and the whole city of Las Vegas, plummets in fire and zeal to your rabid views of even a person with no gambling addiction putting $20 in Bitcoin or any Crypto and letting it sit for weeks, months, years. Yet, there are people in Milwaukee going down to Patowatomi Casino sitting for hours in front of a slot machine doing nothing but feeding it hundreds of dollars worth of coins.
You have no idea of my opinion about casinos, nor is it in any way, shape or form relevant to this discussion. It's deeply unimpressive that you make all sorts of presumptions, rather than ask.

You also aren't reading my criticisms of Bitcoin, apparently. My point is that it can't work as a currency (as its hype men proclaim), definitely can't work as an international currency (again, hype), and that the people who promote it that way are clueless about economics, monetary policy, international trade, and so on.

It is now almost entirely a speculative asset, that is backed by nothing, currently in a bubble, and structurally prone to bubbles and manipulation. And yes, bubbles cause lots of tears and suffering -- and in many cases, that extends beyond the people or institutions directly holding the asset.


So, your opposition is not against Americans exposing themselves to irrational levels of risk, but rather your mere emotional contempt for Bitcoin. Let me guess... you blasted Bitcoin when it was going for say... $40 a coin and told people with your cocky, know-it-all attitude, that not one damn chance in hell would Bitcoin ever sell for $15,000 a coin? And now that you found you were wrong you'll double down enraged.
lol

If individuals want to risk their money, ultimately that is their choice. My concern is more about contagious and secondary effects of bubbles, which is currently not a big issue with cryptocurrency -- but that will not be the case for long.

And what was I saying when Bitcoin was going for $40? Yep, pretty much the same thing as now. I saw right away that it was unable to function as a currency; that the value was going to deflate; that it would form bubbles, and so on. I never said "it will hit X and crash." No one knows when the bubble will burst, and anyone who thinks they know is fooling themselves.

I don't have contempt for Bitcoin. I have contempt for the fools who think that they can make Free Money by speculating on a digital asset that they don't actually understand, and the rentiers who are happy to fleece the suckers without the slightest twinge of conscience, along with the Hype Men who proclaim "this time, it's different!" like we've heard in almost every other bubble in history.


Hey... I believe you said in this thread Bitcoin only brings tears (as in sorrow and not joy)? Did it bring tears to this young kid below?
It's early days for him, my friend.

The kid dropped out of high school because he bought a bunch of Bitcoin when it was cheap. He's said it will go up to $1 million per coin, which (if he believes it) suggests he is unlikely to unwind his position until it's too late. His first startup ("Botangle") hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. Nor does it make sense to expect an 18 year old to be an expert on education, just because he did the equivalent of winning the lottery.

But, let's say that somehow he does make, say, $2 million off of this. The only way that can happen is if other people buy Bitcoin from him when it's incredibly high. If the market keeps going up, Erik has missed out on those gains. If it crashes, not only will he lose whatever he has in Bitcoin, the speculators who bought $2m of BTC from him will be left high and dry.

I also have my doubts that anyone who dropped out of high school to rush headlong into the Dot Com Bubble did all the well in the long run.

Anyone who has paid even cursory attention to bubbles should know that the losers vastly outnumber the winners. As it gets more integrated into the larger economy, it's more likely to harm people who aren't directly involved in trading Bitcoin. Thus yes, even if blockchain develops into useful technology, there's lots of tears and suffering ahead.
 
:lol: Why would one do that? That is far more risky for a person with no experiencing as a currency trader than say... the *many* people that bough Bitcoin at $0.10 and held their Bitcoin for years and then sold some or all of them when Bitcoin had finally reached $600 per coin or $15,000 per coin

Ask him:

 
Peter Schiff is an absolute clown and broken clock doomsayer; no one should take him seriously. His funds are some of the worst performing and highest cost I've ever seen.

As to Jim Rogers, the man has left his best days far behind him.
 
I think bitcoin is now a tool of "value stealing". It is now a tool that has it worth depending if there others believeing that the bitcoin will worth more.

As in whether bitcoin will or will not become a currency the is to be used worldwide, whatever the resut it is. It will be a loss of wealth.

If bitcoin fail to be a world currecny, then those who are buying them in high price now will loss their weath, when the price of bitcoin crash, as the people realise that there is no worth in these bitcoin.

If bitcoin become a world currency, then those who have not brough the bitcon earlier will suffer a loss, when they are force to use their saving to buy bitcoin, as the fiat currency in their saving will become worthless each day. If they do not exchange for the bitcoin, then they will have lesser things that they can afford from their life saving

So either way, the result can be devastating, as till now, there is still not a clear defination and regulation of what is the role of bitcoin? Now it just a asset of "value stealing", preying on those who lack the information to see the true worth of these bitcoin. Till now, the reason for investing is not because bitcoin is a widely used currency that can store value, but it is because there a belief in near future that be more people who will be willing to paid more for these bitcoin. It has become a tool of gamble.

The only one that benefit are the value stealers that had brough the bitcoin at a lower price, and selling them at the high price. The wealth that they have steal are what that has worth. They have taken a gamble and risk, and it paid off for them in big time. The question is, have they supplied anything that benefit the society, in exchange for these hugh wealth?
 
I think bitcoin is now a tool of "value stealing". It is now a tool that has it worth depending if there others believeing that the bitcoin will worth more.

As in whether bitcoin will or will not become a currency the is to be used worldwide, whatever the resut it is. It will be a loss of wealth.

If bitcoin fail to be a world currecny, then those who are buying them in high price now will loss their weath, when the price of bitcoin crash, as the people realise that there is no worth in these bitcoin.

If bitcoin become a world currency, then those who have not brough the bitcon earlier will suffer a loss, when they are force to use their saving to buy bitcoin, as the fiat currency in their saving will become worthless each day. If they do not exchange for the bitcoin, then they will have lesser things that they can afford from their life saving

So either way, the result can be devastating, as till now, there is still not a clear defination and regulation of what is the role of bitcoin? Now it just a asset of "value stealing", preying on those who lack the information to see the true worth of these bitcoin. Till now, the reason for investing is not because bitcoin is a widely used currency that can store value, but it is because there a belief in near future that be more people who will be willing to paid more for these bitcoin. It has become a tool of gamble.

The only one that benefit are the value stealers that had brough the bitcoin at a lower price, and selling them at the high price. The wealth that they have steal are what that has worth. They have taken a gamble and risk, and it paid off for them in big time. The question is, have they supplied anything that benefit the society, in exchange for these hugh wealth?

It is a new GOLDEN AGE for the snake oil salesmen to be sure.....
 
I think bitcoin is now a tool of "value stealing". It is now a tool that has it worth depending if there others believeing that the bitcoin will worth more.

As in whether bitcoin will or will not become a currency the is to be used worldwide, whatever the resut it is. It will be a loss of wealth.

If bitcoin fail to be a world currecny, then those who are buying them in high price now will loss their weath, when the price of bitcoin crash, as the people realise that there is no worth in these bitcoin.

If bitcoin become a world currency, then those who have not brough the bitcon earlier will suffer a loss, when they are force to use their saving to buy bitcoin, as the fiat currency in their saving will become worthless each day. If they do not exchange for the bitcoin, then they will have lesser things that they can afford from their life saving

So either way, the result can be devastating, as till now, there is still not a clear defination and regulation of what is the role of bitcoin? Now it just a asset of "value stealing", preying on those who lack the information to see the true worth of these bitcoin. Till now, the reason for investing is not because bitcoin is a widely used currency that can store value, but it is because there a belief in near future that be more people who will be willing to paid more for these bitcoin. It has become a tool of gamble.

The only one that benefit are the value stealers that had brough the bitcoin at a lower price, and selling them at the high price. The wealth that they have steal are what that has worth. They have taken a gamble and risk, and it paid off for them in big time. The question is, have they supplied anything that benefit the society, in exchange for these hugh wealth?

Just like any other asset then.

I've made a good amount of cash from bitcoin and other crypto's. I've recouped 10x my initial investment and still have plenty of skin in the game. Have I contributed anything to society for that? No.

However, has anyone who bought a house in the 80's and watched it's value quadruple contributed anything either with that particular investment? Not really. Now you have people in their 20's who can't afford houses because they weren't even alive when prices were reasonable. They got 'value' stolen from them. But you wouldn't begrudge a homeowner for buying a house 40 years ago.
 
Just like any other asset then.

I've made a good amount of cash from bitcoin and other crypto's. I've recouped 10x my initial investment and still have plenty of skin in the game. Have I contributed anything to society for that? No.

However, has anyone who bought a house in the 80's and watched it's value quadruple contributed anything either with that particular investment? Not really. Now you have people in their 20's who can't afford houses because they weren't even alive when prices were reasonable. They got 'value' stolen from them. But you wouldn't begrudge a homeowner for buying a house 40 years ago.


Well that the problem of the society perhaps.

If you view your gain in the investment by the view of an individual, we can say that you are clever and smart, as you have take the risk, and had successfully used an amount of a lesser worth and exchange for 10X of the worth. Yet for the 10X of values, as you say you have not contributed to the society. You have gain through your intelligence.

But if you view the whole action by the view of the society as a whole. To the society, such action has no meaning as it only cause unfairness, since nothing is contribute to the society, Yet for that nothingness, wealth is transfer to you from others. This type of investment action do not benefit society no matter how many time it is conducted. It only cause an unfair transfer of wealth.

For your profit, someone has to pay for the losses. And with the predatory society that we are in, we can well be assured that it will be the weaker group who shall pay for the losses.

I do not “begrudge a homeowner for buying a house 40 year ago.”, but to the society for letting the various stealing activities from happening. Just like the house example you use, it only take like a few months or a year plus to build a house or flats, but yet for most of us, we are using the majority of our life to afford for the house or flat. Is it that the construction workers and architectors demand such a high salaries, or the material that are use to build the house are really so expense? No, the high price is due to the demand for profit by the business owners, bankers and investors. And our home are used as a tool to force us to pay for a high price, or to stay homeless. And all these are legal.
 
What I like most of all is that bitcoin is a decentralized and rather anonymous currency, the flows of which are very difficult to track and I hope that in the near future it will reach a new level of development, for this I am now actively buy btc https://cryptalker.com/top-10-best-places-to-buy-bitcoin/
 
@ Post #1:



Okay, to begin let me say this, as it was a learning lesson for me. If you fail to learn from it then that is your problem and your choice. Many years ago in college I had a math teacher who is a mathematician who told the class that he and other teachers that were involved in math, got banned from the local newspaper building in my city. They got banned because they went over to that building and confronted them about errors or straight out lies they were telling local Americans in the city about the housing market. The newspaper claimed it was healthy and fantastic. My math teacher and others had gone through the numbers and found otherwise. In other words they knew they housing market with its subprime loans was about to collapse before it did in the USA.

After getting banned they discovered that our local newspaper is owned (or is it part owned? which ever) by some corporation deep into real estate. So, the paper (mainstream American news) had an incentive to lie to Americans and screw them up the butt.





Now, this takes me to Bitcoin. If you were smart you would have been watching Russia Today news years ago rather than listening to the CIA, American oligarch, backed mainstream news. Particularly if you were being strangled by American banks and the US Government with student loan debt. The American mainstream news is propaganda and nothing but liars. Therefore, mainstream news would have told an American being strangled by debt to not buy into Bitcoin when it was going for $3 per coin because never would that coin reach value of $40 or $100 let alone $600. They would then tell you not to listen to RT because its all lies and propaganda.

But Max Keiser on RT was advising Americans to buy Bitcoin when it was selling for $3 a coin and telling them one day each coin would be selling for $100,000 (US dollars). He was not the only one telling Americans this. Some of the biggest tech minds behind the creation of Facebook were telling Americans this. The bankers and the CIA lapdogs in mainstream media were telling Americans the opposite.

If a young American had a student loan debt of say $100,000 and they bought 1,000 Bitcoins back when it was $3 a coin, and they held until it reached $15,000 as it already did when it went over $19,000 per coin, said person would have had $15 million dollars. Their $100,000 student loan would have been paid off.

There are over 7 billion people on planet earth and over 300 million people in the USA alone. There can and will only ever be a total of 21 million [whole] Bitcoins. So how the hell exactly was 21 million Bitcoins ever supposed to be used like regular US dollars? There is something like over 7 trillion US dollars I think floating around on planet earth. And 300 million is far greater than 21 million.

But here is how 21 million Bitcoins was and will be used as currency like the US dollar (it already is via shift debit cards for example). The 21 million number is deceptive. US currency uses 2 decimal places to the left of the decimal point. Bitcoin uses 8 decimal points to the left of the decimal point. This means there are more Bitcoins--in a certain sense--than the 21 million. The volatility then will only settle once all or near all of the 21 million Bitcoins are mined like all gold being mined. So, a Bitcoin can be thought of as a bar of gold. Tiny pieces cut off will have purchasing power, particularly if all gold were already mined out of the earth, and the real rich cats would be the ones that got the whole bars early in the game.

Most early math heads and tech geeks in the very early days of Bitcoin back when it was going for $0.10 in year 2010 already knew this. Not all of them knew it but many did and they bought and held--because they understood the concept of the creation of Bitcoin well.

These two vids below took place 4 years ago and Max Keiser on RT was telling Americans to buy Bitcoin even when it was roughly $40 dollars (but he had advised earlier than that when it was only $3 a coin, he got in at $3 a coin, and he used to work on Wall Street).








Before the 1:08 mark of the video below he is telling Americans in the English language (not Russian or Japanese) to that Bitcoin will eventually reach $100,000 a coin. And that was 4 years ago he said that back when it was what... $40 a coin.




lol. its funny seeing someone try and use RT as if it were a Lego score of information.

ridiculous
 
Bitcoin definitely is unpredictable. Its price is absolutely dependent on what people will pay for it: there is no underlying asset .
No underlying asset. Just like fiat money.
 
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