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Should the USA be the Focus of a Global BDS Movement re: Militarism?

DaveFagan said:
Please remind me which natiions we delivered war to attacked us since WWII? Whowazzat? Check EvilRoddy's list for a memory refresher. Hot dam, mon, "War is good business, and business is good." How'd you miss that? Noriega, Pinochet, and a long list of leaders from South and Latin America are/were CIA agents. Your brainwashing stuck good.
/
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What's!??!
 
joG said:
What's!??!
Click to expand...

"Here is a partial list of US major military operations since the end of WWII. It is global and unremitting.

China and Taiwan 1945-46, 1950-55.
China (Nanking) 1948-1949.
Korea 1950-53.
China (in Korea) 1950-53.
China 1954-1955.
Guatemala 1954.
Egypt (Alexandria) 1956.
Indonesia 1958.
Lebanon 1958.
Cuba 1959-60.
Guatemala 1960.
Cuba (Bay of Pigs) 1961.
Cuba (Missile Crisis) 1962-1963.
Laos 1962-75.
Belgian Congo 1964.
Guatemala 1964.
Vietnam 1954-1964 (covert) 1964 -75 (overt).
Dominican Republic 1965-66.
Peru 1965.
Cambodia 1968-75.
Guatemala 1967-69.
Iran 1980.
Libya (Gulf of Sidra) 1981 and 1989.
Lebanon 1982-84.
Grenada 1983-84.
Libya 1986.
El Salvador 1981-92.
Nicaragua 1981-90.
Iran 1987-88.
Panama 1989-90.
Iraq 1991.
Kuwait 1991.
Zaire (in cooperation with Belgium) 1991.
Somalia 1992-94.
Iraq (No Fly Zone enforcement) 1992-2003.
Bosnia, Macedonia, Serbia 1992-1995.
Haiti 1994-1995.
Liberia and Central African Republic 1996.
Iraq (protection of Kurdish Autonomous region by bombing N. Iraq) 1996.
Albania 1997.
Iran 1998.
Sudan 1998.
Afghanistan 1998.
Yugoslavia – Serbia 1999.
Afghanistan 2001-2014 (but really to the present).
War on Terror 2001-present. Multiple violations of national sovereignty in more than 30 countries.
Côte d'Ivoire 2002.
Iraq 2003-2011 (but really to present).
Drone Attack Programme in Pakistan 2004-present.
Somalia 2007.
Yemen 2010 - present.
Libya 2011 - present.
Pakistan (Osama bin Laden Raid) 2011
Mali (in cooperation with France) 2013.
Somalia 2013.
Syria 2012-2014 (covert) 2014-present (overt).

Is such behaviour warranted and proper is it coercive militarism to protect US global hegemony over trade and the international order?

Cheers.
Evilroddy. "

Which Nations attacked us, the USA?
 
Evilroddy said:
Should a global boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) movement be focused on America in order to punish it for (and dissuade it from) its greater and greater reliance on using coercive, military might instead of soft-power and diplomacy to solve its disputes with foreign states, nations and groups in a post Cold War world? Is the USA the greatest rogue-nation in the world today and if so should it be sanctioned for flouting international norms of behaviour through its over-reliance on military threats, interventions and adventurism? Should a world and international system which is being increasingly destabilised by US military threats and operations (both overt and covert) react by peacefully destabilising the US economy in response to such behaviour by America? Is it time for the world to turn its collective back on America for a period of time and simply refuse to trade with or invest in America until it abandons its reliance on offensive militarism to promote its economic and political interests abroad? Is it the time for the global ostracism of America as a safeguard for more global peace and the triumph of non-violent dispute resolution in the international system?

Please make reasoned arguments rather than emotional responses or unnecessary threats in addressing this issue. I would prefer to keep this a sober debate rather than a "Camlok-esque" polemic with countering diatribes poisoning civilised debate. It may be a forlorn hope but please try to keep this discussion academic and respectful.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Just a little tip: Line spacing and paragraphs are your friend. Wall of text is not.

Anyway, I have a question for you: Do you think you could possibly get the whole world to "turn its collective back on America" for ANY period of time?

I don't.
 
DaveFagan said:
"Here is a partial list of US major military operations since the end of WWII. It is global and unremitting.

China and Taiwan 1945-46, 1950-55.
China (Nanking) 1948-1949.
Korea 1950-53.
China (in Korea) 1950-53
China 1954-1955.
Guatemala 1954.
Egypt (Alexandria) 1956.
Indonesia 1958.
Lebanon 1958.
Cuba 1959-60.
Guatemala 1960.
Cuba (Bay of Pigs) 1961.
Cuba (Missile Crisis) 1962-1963.
Laos 1962-75.
Belgian Congo 1964.
Guatemala 1964.
Vietnam 1954-1964 (covert) 1964 -75 (overt).
Dominican Republic 1965-66.
Peru 1965.
Cambodia 1968-75.
Guatemala 1967-69.
Iran 1980.
Libya (Gulf of Sidra) 1981 and 1989.
Lebanon 1982-84.
Grenada 1983-84.
Libya 1986.
El Salvador 1981-92.
Nicaragua 1981-90.
Iran 1987-88.
Panama 1989-90.
Iraq 1991.
Kuwait 1991.
Zaire (in cooperation with Belgium) 1991.
Somalia 1992-94.
Iraq (No Fly Zone enforcement) 1992-2003.
Bosnia, Macedonia, Serbia 1992-1995.
Haiti 1994-1995.
Liberia and Central African Republic 1996.
Iraq (protection of Kurdish Autonomous region by bombing N. Iraq) 1996.
Albania 1997.
Iran 1998.
Sudan 1998.
Afghanistan 1998.
Yugoslavia – Serbia 1999.
Afghanistan 2001-2014 (but really to the present).
War on Terror 2001-present. Multiple violations of national sovereignty in more than 30 countries.
Côte d'Ivoire 2002.
Iraq 2003-2011 (but really to present).
Drone Attack Programme in Pakistan 2004-present.
Somalia 2007.
Yemen 2010 - present.
Libya 2011 - present.
Pakistan (Osama bin Laden Raid) 2011
Mali (in cooperation with France) 2013.
Somalia 2013.
Syria 2012-2014 (covert) 2014-present (overt).

Is such behaviour warranted and proper is it coercive militarism to protect US global hegemony over trade and the international order?

Cheers.
Evilroddy. "

Which Nations attacked us, the USA?
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You don't seem to understand the nature of domestic and international security.

But that is fundamental, if you want to discuss them.
 
joG said:
You don't seem to understand the nature of domestic and international security.

But that is fundamental, if you want to discuss them.
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I do understand the nature of domestic and international security. One must ask the question from more than one viewpoint. Who's security. US Corporate? US FED?
US CIA? Not one of the Nations on the list was a military threat to the USA, but we initiated military action in each. Perhaps we were protecting CIA drug ratlines for independently financed operations "a la Oliver North." We've fixed Haiti??? We've fixed Libya??? We've fixed Syria??? I don't think any of those Nations would approve of what we have done to their security. Perhaps we suffer from "optical rectumitis." Either that or we are dumbasses to believe that we are helping these Nations by killing bunches of them.
/
 
Tigerace117:

Do you actually think the Japanese would have been gentler in the Philippines than the US? In the long run, American colonial occupation was far more gentle than that of European or Asian powers.
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The atrocities of one imperial power does not excuse the pre-existing atrocities of an earlier imperial power. That's like arguing that a murder who kills with a bullet to the back of the head is justified to do so because there is an axe-murderer waiting in the next room.

Likewise, for all the negative press many Central American interventions have gotten, American involvement prevented far worse forces from taking power.
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Far worse for whom? Central Americans or the United Fruit Company/Dole and similar business interests whose interests were safeguarded by such interventions. Stopping the spread of socialism/communism was an American interest and not necessarily in the best interests of the locals. These interventions were not about stability but were gun-boat diplomacy designed to protect the callous exploitation of Central American resources and people.

Perhaps we should have let the Boxer fanatics run wild? That sounds like a great way to toss China ever deeper into pools of blood.
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US military intervention was about letting Standard Oil run wild and less about protecting non-Chinese national or the Chinese themselves from the Harmonious Fists. The boxers were a blip in the much longer story of US militarism in pre-communist China.

In Grenada we toppled a regime which had taken power illegally. In Panama we overthrew a drug lord who was running the country into the ground.
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Grenada, not unlike the military junta which removed the legally elected government of Egypt and imposed an oppressive military dominated totalitarian regime in its place? Why are US Marines not landing near Alexandria? Noriega was installed into power by US interests and was on the payroll of the US government (the CIA). You invaded to remove your own puppet when the strings of control got tangled by Noriega's drug-running and you breached Papal sovereignty as well as Panamanian sovereignty to capture, render him to the USA and imprison him. Again, militarism in the service of US national interests and not doing the right thing for some altruistic reasons.

Likewise in Chile, Pinochet killed far fewer then any of his left wing counterparts and indeed Allende was in fact actively working with the KGB(which we know from KGB records).
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The presumption here is that the US had a right to determine what political pathways South Americans and Central America could choose or not chose democratically and used covert military action to undermine democratically elected governments and replace them with juntas which killed and disappeared tens of thousands of Chileans and Argentines. This was done in the service of US national interests and not for the protection of Chile or Argentina. Furthermore it is still going on today in Columbia, Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina, El Salvadore and many other Latin American countries.

The North Koreans do not respect weakness or uncertainty. Should we waffle and in doing so convince Un to invade, thus kicking off a bloodbath?
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You may provoke the blood-bath yourselves. North Korea is a visciously, totalitarian regime but it is no longer the threat it once was to the US or South Korea. North Korea wants nuclear weapons in order to prevent US militarism from coming to their part of the peninsula. They know that any use of a nuclear weapon would mean their eradication at US hands. But they hope that possession of a meaningful nuclear deterrent will be enough to hold off US militarism. They have learned the lessons of Libya's and Ukraine's folly and the wisdom of Pakistan's example.

The Maduro regime is not supported by the Venezuelan people. Should we just sit around and let them commit atrocities because some have fond memories of Hugo Chavez?
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Many, perhaps more, Venezuelans support Chavismo than the policies of exploitation being advocated by the opposition. Maduro has been incompetent and corrupt as have many in his party but that can be corrected by elections rather than open rebellion led by a US-backed and sympathetic militant opposition which has so far been frustrated by electoral results and taken to the streets with violence. There are no good sides in Venezuela's political schism but threats of military intervention or the intervention itself will only make matters worse. Again, US economic and political interests are behind its repeated attempts to interfere in Venezuelan domestic politics.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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DaveFagan said:
Please remind me which natiions we delivered war to attacked us since WWII? Whowazzat? Check EvilRoddy's list for a memory refresher. Hot dam, mon, "War is good business, and business is good." How'd you miss that? Noriega, Pinochet, and a long list of leaders from South and Latin America are/were CIA agents. Your brainwashing stuck good.
/
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:lamo

Zero proof that even a single one of those leaders were CIA agents.
 
Evilroddy said:
Tigerace117:



The atrocities of one imperial power does not excuse the pre-existing atrocities of an earlier imperial power. That's like arguing that a murder who kills with a bullet to the back of the head is justified to do so because there is an axe-murderer waiting in the next room.



Far worse for whom? Central Americans or the United Fruit Company/Dole and similar business interests whose interests were safeguarded by such interventions. Stopping the spread of socialism/communism was an American interest and not necessarily in the interests of the locals. These interventions were not about stability but were gun-boat diplomacy design to protect the callous exploitation of Central American resources and people.



US military intervention was about letting Standard Oil run wild and less about protecting non-Chinese national or the Chinese themselves from the Harmonious Fists.



Grenada, not unlike the military junta which removed the legally elected government of Egypt and imposed an oppressive military dominated totalitarian regime in its place? Why are US Marines not landing near Alexandria? NOriega was installed by US interests and was on the payroll of the US government (the CIA). You invaded to remove your own puppet when the strings got tangled by drug-running and breached Papal sovereignty as well as Panamanian sovereignty to capture, render him to the USA and imprison him. Again, militarism in the service of US national interests and not doing the right thing for some altruistic reasons.



The presumption here is that the US had a right to determine what political pathways South Americans could choose or not chose democratically and used covert military action to undermine democratically elected governments and replace them with juntas which killed and disappeared tens of thousands of Chileans and Argentines. This was done in the service of US national interests and not for the protection of Chile or Argentina. Furthermore it is still going on today in Columbia, Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina, El Salvadore and many other Latin American countries.



You may provoke the blood bath yourselves. North Korea is a visciously, totalitarian regime but it is no longer the threat it once was to the US or South Korea. North Korea wants nuclear weapons in order to prevent US militarism from coming to their part of the peninsula. They know that any use of a nuclear weapon would mean their eradication at US hands. But they hope that possession of a meaningful nuclear deterrent will be enough to hold off US militarism. They have learned the lessons of Libya's and Ukraines folly and the wisdom of Pakistan's example
Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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The atrocities of one power do excuse the lesser "atrocities" of another. The Philippines was not going to be able to make it as an independent in that kind of turbulent period. They lacked the ability to defend themselves, and there were simply too many predator such on the loose. Compared to any of the other options out there the US treated the Filipinos quite well.

Uh....yes, stopping the spread of an ideology which routinely brutally murdered thousands of people in whatever country it spread to was definitely in the interest of Central Americans.

Uh huh. Sure it was :roll:

Gee buddy, you are the one whining about the US toppling various dictatorships and other regimes. Surely you are happy that the US is not being "militaristic"?

Boo ****ing hoo. Noriega was a drug dealing scumbag---Panama was better off with the US removing him.

Communism directly leads to the destruction of democracy. The KGB bribed opponents of Allende, so the authenticity of his "democratic" victory is rather questionable.

Utterly false, unless you actually think the US is plotting coups in South America like the whackier lefties down there like to claim.

It still is and remains a threat to Seoul and to any other major city within range of its missiles. North Korea wants nuclear weapons so it can continue to oppress its own people, extort the rest of the world and conduct terrorism against its peaceful and democratic neighbor. They are just delusional enough to think they could actually successfully launch an attack against US and South Korean troops.

Yes, Gaddafi was quite dumb in his support of terrorism throughout the world.

But all Venezuelans support having basic necessities, not starving and generally having a halfway decent life. Something which Maduro's policies have come up empty on. Maduro is merely using the US as a boogeyman to excuse the fact that his own people are sick of his crap, and you are buying into it.
 
Tigerace117 said:
The atrocities of one power do excuse the lesser "atrocities" of another. The Philippines was not going to be able to make it as an independent in that kind of turbulent period. They lacked the ability to defend themselves, and there were simply too many predator such on the loose. Compared to any of the other options out there the US treated the Filipinos quite well.

Uh....yes, stopping the spread of an ideology which routinely brutally murdered thousands of people in whatever country it spread to was definitely in the interest of Central Americans.

Uh huh. Sure it was :roll:

Gee buddy, you are the one whining about the US toppling various dictatorships and other regimes. Surely you are happy that the US is not being "militaristic"?

Boo ****ing hoo. Noriega was a drug dealing scumbag---Panama was better off with the US removing him.

Communism directly leads to the destruction of democracy. The KGB bribed opponents of Allende, so the authenticity of his "democratic" victory is rather questionable.

Utterly false, unless you actually think the US is plotting coups in South America like the whackier lefties down there like to claim.

It still is and remains a threat to Seoul and to any other major city within range of its missiles. North Korea wants nuclear weapons so it can continue to oppress its own people, extort the rest of the world and conduct terrorism against its peaceful and democratic neighbor. They are just delusional enough to think they could actually successfully launch an attack against US and South Korean troops.

Yes, Gaddafi was quite dumb in his support of terrorism throughout the world.

But all Venezuelans support having basic necessities, not starving and generally having a halfway decent life. Something which Maduro's policies have come up empty on. Maduro is merely using the US as a boogeyman to excuse the fact that his own people are sick of his crap, and you are buying into it.
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Maduro's people just voted, that would be democracy, to initiate the Constitutional Assembly. Maduro is democratically elected. Any Nation attemoting to subvert Venezuelan democracy would be a terrorist. That would be the USA. We didn't like the vote in Syria, or Ukraine, or Yemen, or Honduras, or Haiti, or Guatemala, etc. We are the terrorists. We are the Nation that has caused 20 million deaths around the World. Noone has attacked us. Noone. What's complicated about that?
/
 
Tigerace117:

The atrocities of one power do excuse the lesser "atrocities" of another. The Philippines was not going to be able to make it as an independent in that kind of turbulent period. They lacked the ability to defend themselves, and there were simply too many predator such on the loose. Compared to any of the other options out there the US treated the Filipinos quite well.
Click to expand...

You do realise that the US atrocities predate the Japanese invasion of the Philippines by between 50 and 20 years? I'm not sure how butchering Moros between 1890 and 1922 mitigated US responsibility for brutal militarism because the Japanese committed atrocities later during WWII. Please explain your case here.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Tigerace117:

Uh....yes, stopping the spread of an ideology which routinely brutally murdered thousands of people in whatever country it spread to was definitely in the interest of Central Americans.
Click to expand...

As did the ideologies of militarism and capitalism promoted by the USA. So if that logic holds true then, it makes sense to thwart modern-day US militarism by peaceful means such as a BDS movement to stop the millions of deaths and the wanton destruction caused by the US military since 2001. No?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
DaveFagan said:
Maduro's people just voted, that would be democracy, to initiate the Constitutional Assembly. Maduro is democratically elected. Any Nation attemoting to subvert Venezuelan democracy would be a terrorist. That would be the USA. We didn't like the vote in Syria, or Ukraine, or Yemen, or Honduras, or Haiti, or Guatemala, etc. We are the terrorists. We are the Nation that has caused 20 million deaths around the World. Noone has attacked us. Noone. What's complicated about that?
/
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Uh.....no. Maduro was Vice President under Chavez, and assumed his powers after Chavez' death. Nobody elected him.

Any state which thuggishly attacks its people for protesting said state's incompetence---like Venezuela--- deserves what it gets and is by no means a democracy.

Only problem buddy is that the "votes" in Syria, Yemen, Honduras, Haiti, Guatemala......so on and so forth, are almost always corrupted by bribes, intimidation or violence. The regimes you love so much just can't seem to win a fair election.

You weep and wail over the demise of some of the worst regimes known to man.
 
Evilroddy said:
Tigerace117:



You do realise that the US atrocities predate the Japanese invasion of the Philippines by between 50 and 20 years? I'm not sure how butchering Moros between 1890 and 1922 mitigated US responsibility for brutal militarism because the Japanese committed atrocities later during WWII. Please explain your case here.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

You realize the atrocities of Japan are far worse than anything the US has ever done? You attempting to equate the two shows your own historical ignorance.
 
Evilroddy said:
Tigerace117:



As did the ideologies of militarism and capitalism promoted by the USA. So if that logic holds true then, it makes sense to thwart modern-day US militarism by peaceful means such as a BDS movement to stop the millions of deaths and the wanton destruction caused by the US military since 2001. No?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Your fantasy that the US spreads "militarism" is a pretty clear example of you, once again, trying to draw false equivlencies. The US destroying brutal dictatorships is not an ideology.

And no, despite what communists love to shriek every time someone brings up communism's immense death toll, capitalism has yet to come anywhere close.

Your little pet project will never come true. The international community does not consider fighting terrorist ground to be a crime as you do.
 
Have at it. Let us know how it works out for you.




Or don't. All the same to me.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Uh.....no. Maduro was Vice President under Chavez, and assumed his powers after Chavez' death. Nobody elected him.

Any state which thuggishly attacks its people for protesting said state's incompetence---like Venezuela--- deserves what it gets and is by no means a democracy.

Only problem buddy is that the "votes" in Syria, Yemen, Honduras, Haiti, Guatemala......so on and so forth, are almost always corrupted by bribes, intimidation or violence. The regimes you love so much just can't seem to win a fair election.

You weep and wail over the demise of some of the worst regimes known to man.
Click to expand...

You didn't say which one attacked us. Is your ignorance ingrained or do you work at it? Can't you respond to a simple question? Who attacked us in our constant battles of the last 50 years?
/
 
joG said:
Actually the US has not been the break on global security and protection of ns. It has been the one pushing for a stable system
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that is when it doesn't get it's own way ... America's idea of foreign policy is your either with us or against us now jump!! America is all about one thing control

the simple fact is every treaty America has signed is worthless ... you are not a reliable partner why should anyone country put trust in America

@ecofarm awa and boil yer heid ya numpty ... America supports more terrorism and extremists than yer pals the Saudis ... they are starting to get jealous
 
Tigerace117 said:
You realize the atrocities of Japan are far worse than anything the US has ever done? You attempting to equate the two shows your own historical ignorance.
Click to expand...

the Japanese Empire didn't come close to killing 25 million like the USA has done since 1946 ... but you have some way to catch up with the most brutal empire ever The British Empire murdered 150 million and enslaved 10s of millions
 
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