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Why don't you move to Europe?

Henrin said:
That's cool and all, but unlike Liberals that have a long list of countries that agree with their policies and thus plenty of places to move, libertarians really have no where to move. I imagine plenty of libertarians would vote with their feet if there was somewhere more promising to go.
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A lot of them seem to do the perpetual traveller thing.
 
Ganesh said:
The Civil War was about as non-revolutionary an event as one could imagine. It pitted the forces of the status quo, itself two generations behind the rest of the world, against an even more regressive movement, one urging an agricultural, slave owning society. Lincoln at first was willing to allow slavery where it was established, for the time being, and only went all out against it after the refusal of the south to negotiate a return to the union. All this while most other developed nations had long since moved on.

The Great Depression was the last spasm of capitalism as it had been understood to that date, and the event cried out for rebellion. And it happened to certain degrees in other countries, in the form of progressive, social democrat political movements, that eventually changed the face of the nations affected, Labour in the UK and Australia, the CCF in Canada, and similar in other places. America had FDR and the New Deal, but progress of that policy was slow, as the voices of the status quo were stronger, and reforms harder to pass. And some of those battles are still going on today, again as most of the rest of the world has long since moved on.

Despite all the hoopla about revolution, in fact the US has not differentiated itself from the mainstream at any time in history.
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Is that what you call Europe's cultural suicide? I think America should be ecstatic about not moving.
 
coldjoint said:
Is that what you call Europe's cultural suicide? I think America should be ecstatic about not moving.
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A political synopsis from an observer who doesn't even grasp the history of his own country. Hmmmm.

So the generation of a liberal, egalitarian society that includes a social safety net, freedom from rampaging gun violence, and environmentally sustainable policy is "cultural suicide"? I think you have not only skipped your history class, you have missed out on that vacation to Europe.
 
Ganesh said:
A political synopsis from an observer who doesn't even grasp the history of his own country. Hmmmm.

So the generation of a liberal, egalitarian society that includes a social safety net, freedom from rampaging gun violence, and environmentally sustainable policy is "cultural suicide"? I think you have not only skipped your history class, you have missed out on that vacation to Europe.
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No. And you know exactly what I mean. Your serious problem with Islam. It drains your safety nets, terrorists have 0 problems getting guns, and Europe doesn't make enough to screw up any environment. You are jailing citizens for criticizing Islam, think about it,

As far as American history I am more than satisfied that a Constitution written by forward thinking very wise men created a system that can be lived in without much dissent.
Plus a history that made us a world leader that is benevolent as compared to any world leader in history.
 
coldjoint said:
No. And you know exactly what I mean. Your serious problem with Islam. It drains your safety nets, terrorists have 0 problems getting guns, and Europe doesn't make enough to screw up any environment. You are jailing citizens for criticizing Islam, think about it,
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Europe has a problem with terrorists, violent extremists, and all around psychopaths, and those with such desires today find a cover in the notion of radical Islam. This is really nothing new, various skewed causes have arisen and fallen over the years, including, but not limited to, the Basque separatists, the IRA, the Red Brigades, the Badar-Mienhoff Gang, and even a Norwegian neo-nazi, all of which have in common troubled, sick, and demented young men whose personal demons find an outlet in ways they may imagine have some meaning.

Despite the fact that events in the Middle East and Africa have caused one of the largest refugee movements in history, and the numbers are such that considerable friction has been caused between them and locals, Europe today still has a violent death rate lower than America, a country that is today closing its borders to the most desperate out of fear and xenophobia.

As in the US, although radical Islam is prominent in terrorist acts today, it certainly doesn't have a monopoly. Some of the worst incidents have been entirely home grown- locals with the same rage and violence in them as radical Islamists.

Migrants are not "draining" safety nets, and as for guns and jails, you will probably see the deep irony in an American disdaining another region on either issue.

The EU has an economy the same size as the US, and has a large manufacturing base, producing everything from Airbus aircraft, to BMWs. Where the environment is better in Europe, it is because of enlightened regulation, not the absence of industry.

coldjoint said:
As far as American history I am more than satisfied that a Constitution written by forward thinking very wise men created a system that can be lived in without much dissent.
Plus a history that made us a world leader that is benevolent as compared to any world leader in history.
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You may be comfortable in your system, but many are not. An overwhelming majority of Americans, in poll after poll, believe the country is on the wrong track, and they have no faith at all in government, about half divorce themselves entirely from the civic process and do not vote in elections, and ironically, when asked, say they would prefer some of the policies of Europe, like universal medical care, less defense spending, more equality and labour rights.

As for history, many have had their place in the sun over the centuries, currently the US, previously Britain, and before that France, Spain, Portugal, and we could go on. History (and geography) have placed America on top, and history will remove it again at some point, we can be sure. Nov 8 was a pivotal date, in which fear, xenophobia, and parochialism were endorsed in the US, and it may be history's indication of imminent change.
 
Ganesh said:
Europe has a problem with terrorists, violent extremists, and all around psychopaths, and those with such desires today find a cover in the notion of radical Islam. This is really nothing new, various skewed causes have arisen and fallen over the years, including, but not limited to, the Basque separatists, the IRA, the Red Brigades, the Badar-Mienhoff Gang, and even a Norwegian neo-nazi, all of which have in common troubled, sick, and demented young men whose personal demons find an outlet in ways they may imagine have some meaning.

Despite the fact that events in the Middle East and Africa have caused one of the largest refugee movements in history, and the numbers are such that considerable friction has been caused between them and locals, Europe today still has a violent death rate lower than America, a country that is today closing its borders to the most desperate out of fear and xenophobia.

As in the US, although radical Islam is prominent in terrorist acts today, it certainly doesn't have a monopoly. Some of the worst incidents have been entirely home grown- locals with the same rage and violence in them as radical Islamists.

Migrants are not "draining" safety nets, and as for guns and jails, you will probably see the deep irony in an American disdaining another region on either issue.

The EU has an economy the same size as the US, and has a large manufacturing base, producing everything from Airbus aircraft, to BMWs. Where the environment is better in Europe, it is because of enlightened regulation, not the absence of industry.



You may be comfortable in your system, but many are not. An overwhelming majority of Americans, in poll after poll, believe the country is on the wrong track, and they have no faith at all in government, about half divorce themselves entirely from the civic process and do not vote in elections, and ironically, when asked, say they would prefer some of the policies of Europe, like universal medical care, less defense spending, more equality and labour rights.

As for history, many have had their place in the sun over the centuries, currently the US, previously Britain, and before that France, Spain, Portugal, and we could go on. History (and geography) have placed America on top, and history will remove it again at some point, we can be sure. Nov 8 was a pivotal date, in which fear, xenophobia, and parochialism were endorsed in the US, and it may be history's indication of imminent change.
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The election just changed that. And you like every other apologist is minimizing the problem by citing other criminals. Crime is one thing, religious obligation is another.
 
coldjoint said:
The election just changed that. And you like every other apologist is minimizing the problem by citing other criminals. Crime is one thing, religious obligation is another.
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The election has changed nothing, certainly not for the half of the population (slightly more than half) that voted against Trump, for them it is getting much worse. For those that did vote for him, in a desperate bid for change, the reality that he is actually not only the ultimate insider and swamp dweller, but a foolish and incompetent one as well, will soon sink in, and then rage will be resurgent.

I'm citing statistics, as they apply to comparing societies. Despite some of the most violent acts seen in recent times in Europe, the chance of getting killed or injured is still much, much less in Europe than in America. I'm not apologizing for Europe's problems, which are real, but stating the facts.

And by referring to "religious obligation" you are again confusing religion with terrorism. Hundreds of millions of Muslims led a peaceful life. But it is a religion that has been hijacked by a very few nut cases who seek some sort of exoneration for their misdeeds.

The fact is, it is telling that more Americans die violently every year than Europeans, despite the unprecedented influx of refugees in that region, and also the age old disputes like the Basque separatists. It says a lot about the two cultures.
 
Ganesh said:
The election has changed nothing, certainly not for the half of the population (slightly more than half) that voted against Trump, for them it is getting much worse. For those that did vote for him, in a desperate bid for change, the reality that he is actually not only the ultimate insider and swamp dweller, but a foolish and incompetent one as well, will soon sink in, and then rage will be resurgent.

I'm citing statistics, as they apply to comparing societies. Despite some of the most violent acts seen in recent times in Europe, the chance of getting killed or injured is still much, much less in Europe than in America. I'm not apologizing for Europe's problems, which are real, but stating the facts.

And by referring to "religious obligation" you are again confusing religion with terrorism. Hundreds of millions of Muslims led a peaceful life. But it is a religion that has been hijacked by a very few nut cases who seek some sort of exoneration for their misdeeds.

The fact is, it is telling that more Americans die violently every year than Europeans, despite the unprecedented influx of refugees in that region, and also the age old disputes like the Basque separatists. It says a lot about the two cultures.
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I wouldn't say that for a while if I was you. Give Trump a year and that poll will turn around. I don't think you understand America. And I don't think doing anything like Europe is the right fit or the intelligent thing to do. Your culture is dying, ours has another chance.
 
coldjoint said:
I wouldn't say that for a while if I was you. Give Trump a year and that poll will turn around. I don't think you understand America. And I don't think doing anything like Europe is the right fit or the intelligent thing to do. Your culture is dying, ours has another chance.
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You don't think, but the salient point here is that you don't know. The points you have raised are factually incorrect, or else ideological statements with scant to no historical or logical support. You claim Europe is "dying" which is no more than a bit of hyperbole thrown out for effect. Some of the highest standards of living, the most forward looking policies, and some of the most advanced technologies, and found in your "dying" culture.

It seems to me that what is dying is an American paradigm that will no longer work in the modern world, a consumption centered, free wheeling business and profit first tradition that is so much at odds with current technological and environmental trends.

And with Trump, you have voted for more of the same, except more so. He is already backtracking at high speed on promises made, as he knew, as the carnival shill that he is, that the crackers will buy just about anything if you barnstorm them hard enough. You just have to know your audience, which he did.
 
Ganesh said:
You don't think, but the salient point here is that you don't know. The points you have raised are factually incorrect, or else ideological statements with scant to no historical or logical support. You claim Europe is "dying" which is no more than a bit of hyperbole thrown out for effect. Some of the highest standards of living, the most forward looking policies, and some of the most advanced technologies, and found in your "dying" culture.

It seems to me that what is dying is an American paradigm that will no longer work in the modern world, a consumption centered, free wheeling business and profit first tradition that is so much at odds with current technological and environmental trends.

And with Trump, you have voted for more of the same, except more so. He is already backtracking at high speed on promises made, as he knew, as the carnival shill that he is, that the crackers will buy just about anything if you barnstorm them hard enough. You just have to know your audience, which he did.
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Islam is not a factually true problem? America will be here when Europe is split into emirates. Or we will die trying to preserve this system and country.
 
Ganesh said:
A political synopsis from an observer who doesn't even grasp the history of his own country. Hmmmm.

So the generation of a liberal, egalitarian society that includes a social safety net, freedom from rampaging gun violence, and environmentally sustainable policy is "cultural suicide"? I think you have not only skipped your history class, you have missed out on that vacation to Europe.
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A vacation to Europe wouldn't be sufficient. Try a JOB SEARCH in Europe. Don't forget to look at the salaries.
 
coldjoint said:
Islam is not a factually true problem? America will be here when Europe is split into emirates. Or we will die trying to preserve this system and country.
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Yes, well that's what these arguments come down to, you have no rebuttal, no information to present, just deflection, and eventually a few incoherent ideological ejaculations. Have you ever considered doing some reading? That's not as outlandish as it may seem.

No, Islam is not a problem, yes, terrorists and crazies are. No, Europe will not split into emirates.

As for dying while trying to preserve your system, I think you are too late. Most of America has succumbed to the many years of hard right spin that has now created the very unequal system you have, with a most favoured rentier class taking the vast majority of wealth in the nation, while telling credulous and compliant peons they live in the best country in the world, and are better off than anyone else, and they just need to work a little harder, take a third job, to make ends meet. And you believe it.
 
Ganesh said:
Yes, well that's what these arguments come down to, you have no rebuttal, no information to present, just deflection, and eventually a few incoherent ideological ejaculations. Have you ever considered doing some reading? That's not as outlandish as it may seem.

No, Islam is not a problem, yes, terrorists and crazies are. No, Europe will not split into emirates.

As for dying while trying to preserve your system, I think you are too late. Most of America has succumbed to the many years of hard right spin that has now created the very unequal system you have, with a most favoured rentier class taking the vast majority of wealth in the nation, while telling credulous and compliant peons they live in the best country in the world, and are better off than anyone else, and they just need to work a little harder, take a third job, to make ends meet. And you believe it.
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I think you are the one who should do the reading. Try the Koran and the Hadith and you will see Islam is the problem. The hate for non-Muslims and the obligation of eternal war is what inspires terrorists. Muhammad is the role model. He is the perfect man, and that guarantees Islam will be turning out his clones until the religion is reformed or destroyed. Those are facts backed up totally by Islams own literature. What you see now is only the beginning of a war that Europe wants to lose.

Islam is your enemy whether you like it or not.

It has been progressive liberal spin that this election rejected. You apparently do not know as much as you think.
 
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coldjoint said:
I think you are the one who should do the reading. Try the Koran and the Hadith and you will see Islam is the problem. The hate for non-Muslims and the obligation of eternal war is what inspires terrorists. Muhammad is the role model. He is the perfect man, and that guarantees Islam will be turning out his clones until the religion is reformed or destroyed. Those are facts backed up totally by Islams own literature. What you see now is only the beginning of a war that Europe wants to lose.

Islam is your enemy whether you like it or not.

It has been progressive liberal spin that this election rejected. You apparently do not know as much as you think.
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Yes, it can be brutal, commands to kill disobedient women and children, stone to death women who were not virgins on their wedding night, kill anyone who entices one away to another god, kill their own children as a proof of obedience............oh, wait a minute............that's in the bible!

People tend to decide what they want to do in life, and then being the frail humans they are, seek justification and support in whatever mythology or practice that comes in handy. For those that would seek justification for violence through the bible, it would be no problem, and indeed historically, it wasn't a problem, it was a major feature of life.

Today the Middle East is a mess, and it is not too surprising that some that live there are also a mess. Europe went through such phases, and America had its own spasms of violence in the past.

Your analysis of terrorism follows that of the lazy and ignorant, those that are content to make highly simplistic judgements without going to the effort of reading a book, or actually going to different places, or meeting other people. Read a comic book (or the national enquirer, or the daily stormer), throw it away, crack open another brew, and give the brain a rest, that's about the philosophy of these folks.
 
SDET said:
A vacation to Europe wouldn't be sufficient. Try a JOB SEARCH in Europe. Don't forget to look at the salaries.
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Try a job search in America these days. And when looking at salaries, don't forget that Americans can be financially gutted by unforeseen medical costs, the price of a good university education for their kids.
 
Ganesh said:
Yes, it can be brutal, commands to kill disobedient women and children, stone to death women who were not virgins on their wedding night, kill anyone who entices one away to another god, kill their own children as a proof of obedience............oh, wait a minute............that's in the bible!

People tend to decide what they want to do in life, and then being the frail humans they are, seek justification and support in whatever mythology or practice that comes in handy. For those that would seek justification for violence through the bible, it would be no problem, and indeed historically, it wasn't a problem, it was a major feature of life.

Today the Middle East is a mess, and it is not too surprising that some that live there are also a mess. Europe went through such phases, and America had its own spasms of violence in the past.

Your analysis of terrorism follows that of the lazy and ignorant, those that are content to make highly simplistic judgements without going to the effort of reading a book, or actually going to different places, or meeting other people. Read a comic book (or the national enquirer, or the daily stormer), throw it away, crack open another brew, and give the brain a rest, that's about the philosophy of these folks.
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What is in the Bible is irrelevant. If you wish to apologize for Islam by comparing horrendous punishments, remember Muhammad plagiarized the Bible. The Jews no longer enforce those laws, Islamists do.

Your high and mighty insults to my intelligence do not change one fact about Islam. It changes nothing about their actions today inspired through teaching and example.
You are denying the most serious problem freedom is facing. It should be you reading fairy tales because your opinion on Islam is pure fantasy.
 
eohrnberger said:
Take a night course.
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Finns are famous for being smug and racist. On an unrelated note, Finland is also known as ' the land of the thousand ex-beauty queens and ex-athletes in the government '. All European countries have adopted their culture from Finland, for example its language, which everyone speaks.

Pre-historic Finnish food is widely acclaimed and its chefs renowned for their ability to take all kinds of apparently edible substances and make them look like excrement and noodles. For example, the Easter food Mämmi resembles cow's diarrhea, Salmiakki looks like goat pellets and "mustamakkara" looks like a big black male sex organ with herpes. Not to mention maksalaatikko. Nowadays, however, the true traditional foods of Finland are ramen noodles, hot pockets, kebabs and pizza.

Nowadays the most common Finns are a man with red clothes living in Lapland, a woman with red hair living in Helsinki and a really boring F1 driver who has just started doing rallying.

Because Finland is colder than a polar bears fun hole, the Finns decided to invent the sauna, their sole contribution to human life to date (except of course, Nordic Walking and the totally useless but nonetheless adored Nokia). Some like to say that the Sauna really comes from the Russians, but don't be silly: everyone knows the only thing the Russians ever came up with is the AK-47 and those really trendy fur hats. Bob Dole. Since Finland is uninhabitable during the winter and inhospitable during the summer, the Finns had to come up with a property of character, sisu, meaning an advanced form of self-deceit.
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Just helping out anyone thinking of moving.:mrgreen:



Finland | Uncyclopedia | Fandom powered by Wikia
 
SDET said:
A vacation to Europe wouldn't be sufficient. Try a JOB SEARCH in Europe. Don't forget to look at the salaries.
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Don't forget to look at the taxes and the cost of living too. Put all that together and you may not want to move there.
 
JC Callender said:
I often hear Liberals talk about how great things are in Europe. The people are nicer, crime rates are lower, etc...have you ever considered moving there? I would say I'm Conservative/Libertarian leaning and I don't recall anyone from my political lean talking about a part of the world that's doing so much better than the U.S., but if there was such a place, I certainly would consider moving.
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Most of them probably couldn't afford it.
 
coldjoint said:
What is in the Bible is irrelevant. If you wish to apologize for Islam by comparing horrendous punishments, remember Muhammad plagiarized the Bible. The Jews no longer enforce those laws, Islamists do.

Your high and mighty insults to my intelligence do not change one fact about Islam. It changes nothing about their actions today inspired through teaching and example.
You are denying the most serious problem freedom is facing. It should be you reading fairy tales because your opinion on Islam is pure fantasy.
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What is in the bible is not irrelevant as it demonstrates the nonsensical concept of religion. People take what they want from such vague, diffuse, and dated ramblings and re-interpretations.

Today there are some very crazy and violent people who pretend religious adherence because it makes them feel like they are a somebody, and their life has some meaning, when for most their status is exactly the opposite. This is really nothing new, there have been plenty of examples in the past, right up to the present day. Blacks in the US endured a century of terror at the hands of the KKK and fellow travelers, we had the Shining Path in Peru, the FARC rebels in Columbia, the Mexican drug lords, the Russian Mafia, and others, some of whom needed to think "god" was guiding their hand, and others who simply dived into crime and psychopathy with no need for rationalization.

The problem is here that you are making the lazy and uniformed conclusion that all Muslims are terrorists, all 1.6 billion of them. The rice farmer in Indonesia, the university prof in California, all the same to you, you fear them, they are different from what you know, so you have reactions.

There are backward areas in the world today, for various reasons, and unfortunately also some backward people who live there. And some of them have extreme views. I suspect this will change, but it may take a while yet. But the most serious threat to freedom today? Please. More people die from falling off ladders in America than from terrorism. The most serious threats to freedom in the US currently are the election of ignorant demagogues to power, and the massive proliferation of guns, which latter kill many, many times more than terrorist incidents.
 
Ganesh said:
Try a job search in America these days. And when looking at salaries, don't forget that Americans can be financially gutted by unforeseen medical costs, the price of a good university education for their kids.
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I have done job searches here in the USA. One can't find a better deal anywhere. Anyone in the US that is "financially gutted" by medical costs doesn't understand basic asset protection laws. You pay medical bills when you can afford to or wait for the statute of limitations to kick in and pay nothing, whichever comes first.
 
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Ganesh said:
What is in the bible is not irrelevant as it demonstrates the nonsensical concept of religion. People take what they want from such vague, diffuse, and dated ramblings and re-interpretations.

Today there are some very crazy and violent people who pretend religious adherence because it makes them feel like they are a somebody, and their life has some meaning, when for most their status is exactly the opposite. This is really nothing new, there have been plenty of examples in the past, right up to the present day. Blacks in the US endured a century of terror at the hands of the KKK and fellow travelers, we had the Shining Path in Peru, the FARC rebels in Columbia, the Mexican drug lords, the Russian Mafia, and others, some of whom needed to think "god" was guiding their hand, and others who simply dived into crime and psychopathy with no need for rationalization.

The problem is here that you are making the lazy and uniformed conclusion that all Muslims are terrorists, all 1.6 billion of them. The rice farmer in Indonesia, the university prof in California, all the same to you, you fear them, they are different from what you know, so you have reactions.

There are backward areas in the world today, for various reasons, and unfortunately also some backward people who live there. And some of them have extreme views. I suspect this will change, but it may take a while yet. But the most serious threat to freedom today? Please. More people die from falling off ladders in America than from terrorism. The most serious threats to freedom in the US currently are the election of ignorant demagogues to power, and the massive proliferation of guns, which latter kill many, many times more than terrorist incidents.
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Try telling that to an Islamist that. I suggest you do it from a car moving in any direction away from him. It does not matter what you think about religion it is what they(Islamists) think.

I have never said all Muslims are terrorists. Please do not perpetuate a lie.
 
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