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Why don't you move to Europe?

JC Callender said:
I often hear Liberals talk about how great things are in Europe. The people are nicer, crime rates are lower, etc...have you ever considered moving there? I would say I'm Conservative/Libertarian leaning and I don't recall anyone from my political lean talking about a part of the world that's doing so much better than the U.S., but if there was such a place, I certainly would consider moving.
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Are they hiring??
 
Ganesh said:
You must be joking. Americans have the choice between the corporate establishment lite, or the same with radical overtones. There is no other. The orange headed fellow that has taken control is very much a product of the establishment, a New York scam artist born with a silver spoon in his mouth. In other countries, their freedom of choice has been taken away by brutal suppression, threats, executions, and similar. In the US, rights have been curtailed because so many don't bother to read, or to take part in elections, or particularly give a sh**.

In Europe political opinion is diverse, and for the most part, represented in civil society. That's why there are multiple parties in European countries, because it is natural that there will be a lot of opinions among millions of people. Ever ask yourself why 320,000,000 people have generated only 2 political parties, both of them similar in outlook? Maybe you should.

The fact is, Americans have never revolted against anything. The American Revolution was the angst of shopkeepers and entrepreneurs, who wanted profit without restraint. Most of the population at that time did not support them, and many simply left, rather than take a stand. And it has been more or less the same since, including the great depression, when starving Americans accepted the status quo in large numbers, some even reviling FDR for attempting remediation. We could go on.
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I guess you forgot about the Civil War, and what good would a revolt have done in the Depression?
 
Ganesh said:
You must be joking. Americans have the choice between the corporate establishment lite, or the same with radical overtones. There is no other. The orange headed fellow that has taken control is very much a product of the establishment, a New York scam artist born with a silver spoon in his mouth. In other countries, their freedom of choice has been taken away by brutal suppression, threats, executions, and similar. In the US, rights have been curtailed because so many don't bother to read, or to take part in elections, or particularly give a sh**.

In Europe political opinion is diverse, and for the most part, represented in civil society. That's why there are multiple parties in European countries, because it is natural that there will be a lot of opinions among millions of people. Ever ask yourself why 320,000,000 people have generated only 2 political parties, both of them similar in outlook? Maybe you should.

The fact is, Americans have never revolted against anything. The American Revolution was the angst of shopkeepers and entrepreneurs, who wanted profit without restraint. Most of the population at that time did not support them, and many simply left, rather than take a stand. And it has been more or less the same since, including the great depression, when starving Americans accepted the status quo in large numbers, some even reviling FDR for attempting remediation. We could go on.
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We Americans CHOOSE to run a system by two poles (the two parties) because we think it is a better way to run things, that it is more efficient and true. I dont for one second accept your assertion that the two party system is inferior to having lots of parties, or three.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
We Americans CHOOSE to run a system by two poles (the two parties) because we think it is a better way to run things, that it is more efficient and true. I dont for one second accept your assertion that the two party system is inferior to having lots of parties, or three.
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having parties divides the people, instead of them being united in the cause of preserving rights and the union itself
 
Master PO said:
having parties divides the people, instead of them being united in the cause of preserving rights and the union itself
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Oh POO.....these morons who run their lives by their political appetites, deciding who to listen to, who to have over at the house, who to practice their sadism on, what fantasies to feed their kids, what to eat, what to buy based upon political views need a tune-up.

Two pole politics when done right works great to distill opinions and reality, and in forcing one to consider and then decide. 2 extremes works better than a pile of mush in much of human existence on this Earth, why should we expect politics to be SPECIAL?

It was always understood that for America to work the citizens needed to be up to the job of managing things...THAT IS THE MOTHER****ING PROBLEM.......which we are on our way to fixing just now with TRUMP......not the two pole system.

I reject again the claim that the two party system is not the best.
 
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Hawkeye10 said:
Oh POO.....these morons who run their lives by their political appetites, deciding who to listen to, who to have over at the house, who to practice their sadism on, what fantasies to feed their kids, what to eat, what to buy based upon political views need a tune-up.

Two pole politics when done right works great to distill opinions and reality, and in forcing one to consider and then decide. 2 extremes works better than a pile of mush in much of human existence on this Earth, why should we expect politics to be SPECIAL?

I reject again the claim that the two party system is not the best.
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all i am saying is parties divide the people they make them choose sides, when the side everyone should be on is preserving rights, our union with its constitution.

people are self serving and will work in their own interest at the expense of other people and thats whats sad about the human race and why governments ultimately fail.
 
Master PO said:
all i am saying is parties divide the people they make them choose sides, when the side everyone should be on is preserving rights, our union with its constitution.

people are self serving and will work in their own interest at the expense of other people and thats whats sad about the human race and why governments ultimately fail.
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Ya, I got what you are saying. I figure you would also say that we should work hard to get rid of conflict and war, that we should drive hard for tranquility and peace.

I am here to tell you that that is a good idea only in small measure, because it is based more on fantasy than reality.

Think about that a spell along with my assertion that the two party system is superior.

Maybe you will see me.

I see you.
 
Ganesh said:
The constitution and bill of rights is modeled on Europe, Britain to be specific, with some minor modifications.

And you are right, there is plenty of room for improvement.
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Correct

Correct again
 
Master PO said:
all i am saying is parties divide the people they make them choose sides, when the side everyone should be on is preserving rights, our union with its constitution.

people are self serving and will work in their own interest at the expense of other people and thats whats sad about the human race and why governments ultimately fail.
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Then you make more Parties, More Ideas, More Choices.

Governments Fail Because of the People.
 
i like living in the US but I would consider living in another country if not for my friends and family and business all being in the US.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Ya, I got what you are saying. I figure you would also say that we should work hard to get rid of conflict and war, that we should drive hard for tranquility and peace.

I am here to tell you that that is a good idea only in small measure, because it is based more on fantasy than reality.

Think about that a spell along with my assertion that the two party system is superior.

Maybe you will see me.

I see you.
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i understand you, and i accept the reality, i just made the remark that parties generally are bad, because they divide the people
 
Casper said:
Then you make more Parties, More Ideas, More Choices.

Governments Fail Because of the People.
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thats true, because people are self-serving [its human nature] and seek their own interest at the expense of others.

and if government cannot be constructed to keep the people in check as you would a monarch or an oligarchy, the people destroy the government they have created for themselves
 
Master PO said:
thats true, because people are self-serving [its human nature] and seek their own interest at the expense of others.

and if government cannot be constructed to keep the people in check as you would a monarch or an oligarchy, the people destroy the government they have created for themselves
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There you go, we are in agreement. Well Done.
 
Master PO said:
i understand you, and i accept the reality, i just made the remark that parties generally are bad, because they divide the people
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And I am claiming that being so divided in argument in choice of direction the collective takes is a good thing. In certain thinks the division and thus nourished vigorous disagree IS A GOOD THING.

I say that the problem is that we are stupid, we dont keep the scheme in the area of our life where it helps us, we now so many of us run our entire lives through the framework of politics, which is almost always a bad idea with bad results most of the time.

I also say that Americans have long failed in our duties to manage this nation, we handed the job over to so call experts who did what people usually when they have a lot of power and little oversight....they do poor work and become moral garbage.

THese are the problems in America today, not the two party system.

Anyway, I think I have made three attempts to get the point though in this thread, but whatever, I am done with this point.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
And I am claiming that being so divided in argument in choice of direction the collective takes is a good thing. In certain thinks the division and thus nourished vigorous disagree IS A GOOD THING.

I say that the problem is that we are stupid, we dont keep the scheme in the area of our life where it helps us, we now so many of us run our entire lives through the framework of politics, which is almost always a bad idea with bad results most of the time.

I also say that Americans have long failed in our duties to manage this nation, we handed the job over to so call experts who did what people usually when they have a lot of power and little oversight....they do poor work and become moral garbage.

THese are the problems in America today, not the two party system.

Anyway, I think I have made three attempts to get the point though in this thread, but whatever, I am done with this point.
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repost:

because people are self-serving [its human nature] and seek their own interest at the expense of others.

and if government cannot be constructed to keep the people in check as you would a monarch or an oligarchy, the people destroy the government they have created for themselves
 
Master PO said:
repost:

because people are self-serving [its human nature] and seek their own interest at the expense of others.

and if government cannot be constructed to keep the people in check as you would a monarch or an oligarchy, the people destroy the government they have created for themselves
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Except for the ones who get educated, who figured out that we are better together than atomized, a fact which history proves to the point that no reasonable person who got educated can deny.
 
coldjoint said:
I guess you forgot about the Civil War, and what good would a revolt have done in the Depression?
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The Civil War was about as non-revolutionary an event as one could imagine. It pitted the forces of the status quo, itself two generations behind the rest of the world, against an even more regressive movement, one urging an agricultural, slave owning society. Lincoln at first was willing to allow slavery where it was established, for the time being, and only went all out against it after the refusal of the south to negotiate a return to the union. All this while most other developed nations had long since moved on.

The Great Depression was the last spasm of capitalism as it had been understood to that date, and the event cried out for rebellion. And it happened to certain degrees in other countries, in the form of progressive, social democrat political movements, that eventually changed the face of the nations affected, Labour in the UK and Australia, the CCF in Canada, and similar in other places. America had FDR and the New Deal, but progress of that policy was slow, as the voices of the status quo were stronger, and reforms harder to pass. And some of those battles are still going on today, again as most of the rest of the world has long since moved on.

Despite all the hoopla about revolution, in fact the US has not differentiated itself from the mainstream at any time in history.
 
Because they want to make the US just like Europe. The sad thing is they are slowly getting their way, so they have no real reason to move as it stands.
 
foadi said:
Libertarians talk about voting with their feet all the time. Go to Anarchapulco next February and I will guarantee you will see plenty of them.
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That's cool and all, but unlike Liberals that have a long list of countries that agree with their policies and thus plenty of places to move, libertarians really have no where to move. I imagine plenty of libertarians would vote with their feet if there was somewhere more promising to go.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
We Americans CHOOSE to run a system by two poles (the two parties) because we think it is a better way to run things, that it is more efficient and true. I dont for one second accept your assertion that the two party system is inferior to having lots of parties, or three.
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Baloney. You have chosen nothing, and do not have the power to change the existing system, so it is disingenuous to say that because it still exists, everyone must be happy with it.

When looking at the opinions of any large group of people, there is always a spectrum of believe, and this is particularly so in nations with a very cosmopolitan demographic, which the US certainly has. It is inconceivable that 320M people all subscribe to essentially the same political conviction, as you are suggesting here, because the two parties are not poles apart, but very similar in policy, and differing only in degree. When given the chance, in fact many flock to alternatives, such as in this election where Bernie Sanders generated a huge following, and Trump the "outsider"(although he is really not) actually won. And even with a hotly contested and monumental campaign, 45% of the electorate was still cynical and apathetic enough to ignore it. These events hardly suggest Americans think that they have had a "better way".

Much of the rage in this election has come from the perception that the US system is deeply flawed, and powerful interests simply trade places every 4 years, generating extreme cynicism and disdain for the political system, which are quite understandable emotions.
 
Henrin said:
That's cool and all, but unlike Liberals that have a long list of countries that agree with their policies and thus plenty of places to move, libertarians really have no where to move. I imagine plenty of libertarians would vote with their feet if there was somewhere more promising to go.
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Does that tell you something?
 
JC Callender said:
I often hear Liberals talk about how great things are in Europe. The people are nicer, crime rates are lower, etc...have you ever considered moving there? I would say I'm Conservative/Libertarian leaning and I don't recall anyone from my political lean talking about a part of the world that's doing so much better than the U.S., but if there was such a place, I certainly would consider moving.
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That's an easy one: They don't want to take the pay cut for those that are employed. I do have a question though: Would any of their governments even let an unemployed American emigrate to Europe?
 
SDET said:
That's an easy one: They don't want to take the pay cut for those that are employed. I do have a question though: Would any of their governments even let an unemployed American emigrate to Europe?
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Not sure, but from what I've heard there are some pretty strict immigration policies in European countries.
 
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