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How to argue for immigration restrictions

M

Masterhawk

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A libertarian gives advice on how to defend immigration restrictions:



Btw, he's actually against them. he's just asking people for them to hear him out on how to argue for it.
 
As Milton Freidman observed, open borders and a welfare state are incompatible.
Libertarians are against border walls, and against government social welfare programs.
When faced with a strong welfare state, and the possibility of open borders, what does a Libertarian choose.
Some choose idealism first, some make a pragmatic decision, and say dismantle the welfare state, and the walls will come down.


In a void, Libertarians choose no borders, but the issue does not exist in a void. No Libertarian supports welfare expenditures for citizens, not for legal immigrants, and certainly not illegal residents.

Rand Paul is willing to have the government build border walls, if expenditures are cut in other areas.
Ron Paul and Rand Paul are two libertarians who do not support open borders, under the current state of affairs.

I find it interesting that there are two groups of immigrants, for all years, at all times. In discussion of immigrants, this distinction is often ignored.

Sometimes statements are made that only apply to one group or the other, but a blanket statement is made, that that pulls both groups together.
The problem is, “immigrants” may refer only to “legal immigrants”, or it may refer only to “illegal residents”, or it may refer to “all immigrants, regardless of legal status”. The terms are used interchangeably, with no explanations.

There are huge differences between these two groups, mostly having to do with education and skills, eligibility for social services, ability to be self sufficient from the moment of residency.

There are very few statistics for illegal residents using social welfare, yet no one denies that illegal residents are the payment name, and recipient of free HUD housing, receive food stamps, that feed the whole family, legal and illegal residents alike.
The illegal resident children go to school, get a free education, get free meals while at school, but no one knows how many children, how much money has been spent, because there are no statistics.

If 40% of a school district is on food stamps, all of the children get free meals and snacks, regardless of income, and regardless of residency status, legal or illegal. No one knows how much is spent on illegal residents, because there are no records available.

The cost to pay for health care for unauthorized immigrants is over $10 Billion per year. Nearly twice that, by some calculations.

Conservative estimates put the national cost of health care for all immigrants to be over $36 billion per year. Total actual cost, with state share, etc, is likely twice that.

In a social welfare state such as the USA, there is a government cost for all immigrants, but most of that cost is for illegal residents, and most of those costs are hidden from the public. Libertarians are against all such expenditures, on principle.

The only way to prevent this unappreciated burden of paying for the needs of others, is to have secure borders. That is the position of pragmatic Libertarians.
 
Norml said:
As Milton Freidman observed, open borders and a welfare state are incompatible.
Libertarians are against border walls, and against government social welfare programs.
When faced with a strong welfare state, and the possibility of open borders, what does a Libertarian choose.
Some choose idealism first, some make a pragmatic decision, and say dismantle the welfare state, and the walls will come down.


In a void, Libertarians choose no borders, but the issue does not exist in a void. No Libertarian supports welfare expenditures for citizens, not for legal immigrants, and certainly not illegal residents.

Rand Paul is willing to have the government build border walls, if expenditures are cut in other areas.
Ron Paul and Rand Paul are two libertarians who do not support open borders, under the current state of affairs.

I find it interesting that there are two groups of immigrants, for all years, at all times. In discussion of immigrants, this distinction is often ignored.

Sometimes statements are made that only apply to one group or the other, but a blanket statement is made, that that pulls both groups together.
The problem is, “immigrants” may refer only to “legal immigrants”, or it may refer only to “illegal residents”, or it may refer to “all immigrants, regardless of legal status”. The terms are used interchangeably, with no explanations.

There are huge differences between these two groups, mostly having to do with education and skills, eligibility for social services, ability to be self sufficient from the moment of residency.

There are very few statistics for illegal residents using social welfare, yet no one denies that illegal residents are the payment name, and recipient of free HUD housing, receive food stamps, that feed the whole family, legal and illegal residents alike.
The illegal resident children go to school, get a free education, get free meals while at school, but no one knows how many children, how much money has been spent, because there are no statistics.

If 40% of a school district is on food stamps, all of the children get free meals and snacks, regardless of income, and regardless of residency status, legal or illegal. No one knows how much is spent on illegal residents, because there are no records available.

The cost to pay for health care for unauthorized immigrants is over $10 Billion per year. Nearly twice that, by some calculations.

Conservative estimates put the national cost of health care for all immigrants to be over $36 billion per year. Total actual cost, with state share, etc, is likely twice that.

In a social welfare state such as the USA, there is a government cost for all immigrants, but most of that cost is for illegal residents, and most of those costs are hidden from the public. Libertarians are against all such expenditures, on principle.

The only way to prevent this unappreciated burden of paying for the needs of others, is to have secure borders. That is the position of pragmatic Libertarians.
Click to expand...

Secure borders do not prevent this. Most illegal immigrants come into the country legally and simply overstay their visas.

Ironically, the only effective solution to this problem is to repair the broken societies from where the illegal immigrants are coming. If the people of said societies are unable or unwilling to do this themselves, then they will always be streaming into the healthiest nearby society they can find. In the western hemisphere, that is the United States. So what is the alternative?

If you don't like the implications of illegal immigration into your country, then you should be in favor of sending aid to the countries where they are coming from. That means your tax dollars going to the countries that are "sending rapists that are bringing drugs and crime."

Enough foreign aid could eliminate virtually all illegal immigration into the United States. "Stronger borders" would reduce illegal immigration in America by less than ten percent.
 
lwf said:
Secure borders do not prevent this. Most illegal immigrants come into the country legally and simply overstay their visas.
Click to expand...
Here's a thought.
Maybe more than one fix is required.
Stop all visas, and there will be even more problems at the border, with even greater reason to fortify.

Ironically, the only effective solution to this problem is to repair the broken societies from where the illegal immigrants are coming. If the people of said societies are unable or unwilling to do this themselves, then they will always be streaming into the healthiest nearby society they can find. In the western hemisphere, that is the United States. So what is the alternative?
Click to expand...

Of course. All we have to do is spend hundreds of billions $$$ giving money to other countries. They will use it to keep their friends happy, and buy the others plane tickets to the USA.
What a plan.
If you don't like the implications of illegal immigration into your country, then you should be in favor of sending aid to the countries where they are coming from. That means your tax dollars going to the countries that are "sending rapists that are bringing drugs and crime."
Click to expand...
What kind of logic is that? That is crazy.
Why am I financially responsible for strangers in other
Countries?

Enough foreign aid could eliminate virtually all illegal immigration into the United States. "Stronger borders" would reduce illegal immigration in America by less than ten percent.
Click to expand...

Let me explain to you how this works.
The ones who came here on visas were vettered, documented.
They had sponsers, who agreed to be financially responsible for them, so they would not need welfare.
They either had a job, or a university position.
When the visa ended, and they became illegal, they had someone supporting them, or supported themselves. Cost to society is minimal.

Now illegal residents, who were never vetted, different story.
From day one, a burden to society. No waiting job. No sponsor to provide funds. Often they go on welfare the first day in the country (California).
The majority of expenses associated with illegal residents, are not caused by those who stayed too long. They are caused by those who were never here legally to begin with.

If they are 10% of the head count, they are 50% of the dollar count.

Only a fool thinks all of the hoards from central and south America only cause 10% of all the expenses associated with immigrants, legal or otherwise.
 
i haven't watched it yet but would any of it apply to our President's wife or her family?
 
Norml said:
Here's a thought.
Maybe more than one fix is required.
Stop all visas, and there will be even more problems at the border, with even greater reason to fortify.
Click to expand...

What if other countries then stop all American visas?

Norml said:
Of course. All we have to do is spend hundreds of billions $$$ giving money to other countries. They will use it to keep their friends happy, and buy the others plane tickets to the USA.
What a plan.

What kind of logic is that? That is crazy.
Why am I financially responsible for strangers in other
Countries?
Click to expand...

You're not financially responsible for strangers in other countries. You simply can't keep them out of your country unless their country is fixed. You might want them to do it themselves, but if they don't, and if you are unwilling to do it for them, then you better start learning to speak their language.

Norml said:
Let me explain to you how this works.
The ones who came here on visas were vettered, documented.
They had sponsers, who agreed to be financially responsible for them, so they would not need welfare.
They either had a job, or a university position.
When the visa ended, and they became illegal, they had someone supporting them, or supported themselves. Cost to society is minimal.

Now illegal residents, who were never vetted, different story.
From day one, a burden to society. No waiting job. No sponsor to provide funds. Often they go on welfare the first day in the country (California).
The majority of expenses associated with illegal residents, are not caused by those who stayed too long. They are caused by those who were never here legally to begin with.

If they are 10% of the head count, they are 50% of the dollar count.

Only a fool thinks all of the hoards from central and south America only cause 10% of all the expenses associated with immigrants, legal or otherwise.
Click to expand...

No one needs to have a sponsor, a job, or be vetted to enter the United States legally. The most they would need is $131 for a tourist visa. Some only need a passport.

And illegal immigrants are not entitled to welfare, medicare, or medicaid. They receive no federal money for healthcare, and must pay their healthcare costs out of pocket, or rely on private insurance or charities.
 
lwf said:
What if other countries then stop all American visas?



You're not financially responsible for strangers in other countries. You simply can't keep them out of your country unless their country is fixed. You might want them to do it themselves, but if they don't, and if you are unwilling to do it for them, then you better start learning to speak their language.



No one needs to have a sponsor, a job, or be vetted to enter the United States legally. The most they would need is $131 for a tourist visa. Some only need a passport.

And illegal immigrants are not entitled to welfare, medicare, or medicaid. They receive no federal money for healthcare, and must pay their healthcare costs out of pocket, or rely on private insurance or charities.
Click to expand...

Use the links in my post.
Learn to read.
$18 billion a year just for health care for illegal residents. I won't quibble, maybe only $10 billion a year.

Ten billion for benefits they "are not eligible for".
Imagine what they get for the ones they are eligible for.

Who do you think gets food stamps, the 6 month old baby, or the illegal parents?

You are clueless.
 
Norml said:
Use the links in my post.
Learn to read.
$18 billion a year just for health care for illegal residents. I won't quibble, maybe only $10 billion a year.

Ten billion for benefits they "are not eligible for".
Imagine what they get for the ones they are eligible for.

Who do you think gets food stamps, the 6 month old baby, or the illegal parents?

You are clueless.
Click to expand...

Don't like it? Donate to foreign aid causes that operate in the countries where these immigrants are coming from. Raise them up so that they don't have to come here. That's the only way to stop it. Fortifying the border would increase that $10 billion number by a factor of 10 and do next to nothing to stem the tide of immigration. What little Trump has done already has cost 3 times that amount and has done nothing to stem the tide.

If you believe we're throwing $10 to $20 billion in federal money away each year, why multiply that number tenfold? Do you have any idea what it would cost to have armed guards stationed along the border 24/7? This is trying to put out a burning pile of money by dumping a truckload of more money onto the fire. If you want your money to actually strike at the root of immigration, you'd be in favor of sending aid to where the most immigrants are coming from. They're going to get American money one way or another. You can send it to them, or they can come here for it.
 
lwf said:
Don't like it? Donate to foreign aid causes that operate in the countries where these immigrants are coming from. Raise them up so that they don't have to come here. That's the only way to stop it. Fortifying the border would increase that $10 billion number by a factor of 10 and do next to nothing to stem the tide of immigration. What little Trump has done already has cost 3 times that amount and has done nothing to stem the tide.

If you believe we're throwing $10 to $20 billion in federal money away each year, why multiply that number tenfold? Do you have any idea what it would cost to have armed guards stationed along the border 24/7? This is trying to put out a burning pile of money by dumping a truckload of more money onto the fire. If you want your money to actually strike at the root of immigration, you'd be in favor of sending aid to where the most immigrants are coming from. They're going to get American money one way or another. You can send it to them, or they can come here for it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, serious problems staying focused.
Undoubtedly, you will leave this discussion still believing illegal residents get no help with medical care.

I have read reports that put the annual cost for illegal residents at over $100 billion. There are expenses, that I know about, that they never mention.
Easily, over $150 billion per year.
Most of that, is not extended stays.
 
Norml said:
Yeah, serious problems staying focused.
Undoubtedly, you will leave this discussion still believing illegal residents get no help with medical care.

I have read reports that put the annual cost for illegal residents at over $100 billion. There are expenses, that I know about, that they never mention.
Easily, over $150 billion per year.
Most of that, is not extended stays.
Click to expand...

Ok fine. If that's the case, then the last thing we need to do is light another $100 billion in tax money on fire with a strategic boondoggle like attempting to "fortify the border." There are no amount of fortifications that can stop illegal immigration. The reduction in illegal immigration that you would see would amount to a tiny fraction of the cost of those fortifications in savings. You would be spending orders of magnitude more money than if you simply left the border wide open. The only difference is, there would be roughly ten percent fewer foreigners in America, which if we're all being honest is the real reason conservatives want to force Americans to spend their hard earned tax dollars on fortifying the border.
 
Last edited:
Norml said:
As Milton Freidman observed, open borders and a welfare state are incompatible.
Libertarians are against border walls, and against government social welfare programs.
When faced with a strong welfare state, and the possibility of open borders, what does a Libertarian choose.
Some choose idealism first, some make a pragmatic decision, and say dismantle the welfare state, and the walls will come down.


In a void, Libertarians choose no borders, but the issue does not exist in a void. No Libertarian supports welfare expenditures for citizens, not for legal immigrants, and certainly not illegal residents.

Rand Paul is willing to have the government build border walls, if expenditures are cut in other areas.
Ron Paul and Rand Paul are two libertarians who do not support open borders, under the current state of affairs.

I find it interesting that there are two groups of immigrants, for all years, at all times. In discussion of immigrants, this distinction is often ignored.

Sometimes statements are made that only apply to one group or the other, but a blanket statement is made, that that pulls both groups together.
The problem is, “immigrants” may refer only to “legal immigrants”, or it may refer only to “illegal residents”, or it may refer to “all immigrants, regardless of legal status”. The terms are used interchangeably, with no explanations.

There are huge differences between these two groups, mostly having to do with education and skills, eligibility for social services, ability to be self sufficient from the moment of residency.

There are very few statistics for illegal residents using social welfare, yet no one denies that illegal residents are the payment name, and recipient of free HUD housing, receive food stamps, that feed the whole family, legal and illegal residents alike.
The illegal resident children go to school, get a free education, get free meals while at school, but no one knows how many children, how much money has been spent, because there are no statistics.

If 40% of a school district is on food stamps, all of the children get free meals and snacks, regardless of income, and regardless of residency status, legal or illegal. No one knows how much is spent on illegal residents, because there are no records available.

The cost to pay for health care for unauthorized immigrants is over $10 Billion per year. Nearly twice that, by some calculations.

Conservative estimates put the national cost of health care for all immigrants to be over $36 billion per year. Total actual cost, with state share, etc, is likely twice that.

In a social welfare state such as the USA, there is a government cost for all immigrants, but most of that cost is for illegal residents, and most of those costs are hidden from the public. Libertarians are against all such expenditures, on principle.

The only way to prevent this unappreciated burden of paying for the needs of others, is to have secure borders. That is the position of pragmatic Libertarians.
Click to expand...

First of all, illegal immigrants put more into the welfare state than they take out. Payroll tax gets taken out of their paychecks as with everyone else but they don't get to claim benefits since doing so would risk them getting deported. Even legal immigrants cannot claim benefits until they have resided in the country for five years. The only government program they really qualify for is public education.

Secondly, even if this were true, the real problem is with the welfare state, not with open immigration. In that case, the welfare state could be reformed so that only citizens are eligible or have it simply abolished.
 
Masterhawk said:
First of all, illegal immigrants put more into the welfare state than they take out. Payroll tax gets taken out of their paychecks as with everyone else but they don't get to claim benefits since doing so would risk them getting deported. Even legal immigrants cannot claim benefits until they have resided in the country for five years. The only government program they really qualify for is public education.

Secondly, even if this were true, the real problem is with the welfare state, not with open immigration. In that case, the welfare state could be reformed so that only citizens are eligible or have it simply abolished.
Click to expand...

As usual, no facts, just hot air.
Ten billion per year, just for health care for illegal residents.
You can not even show how that much was paid by illegals in taxes. All of them together, do not pay the equivelent of the health care benefits they receive.

There is not a welfare benefit available to citizens, that is not given to illegals.

They reside in public housing.
They eat from food stamps.
Children get free meals and snacks at school.
They receive benefit of energy assistance.
Pregnant illegal residents get free hospital care.

You logic is just...interesting.
Welfare benefits meant for citizens, are abused by illegal residents, so the problem is the system that allows them to benefit.
Yeah, and the problem is not bank robbers, it is the banking system that allows itself to be robbed.
The problem is not law enforcement, it is the businesses, that allow themselves to be victims.
 
Norml said:
As usual, no facts, just hot air.
Ten billion per year, just for health care for illegal residents.
You can not even show how that much was paid by illegals in taxes. All of them together, do not pay the equivelent of the health care benefits they receive.

There is not a welfare benefit available to citizens, that is not given to illegals.

They reside in public housing.
They eat from food stamps.
Children get free meals and snacks at school.
They receive benefit of energy assistance.
Pregnant illegal residents get free hospital care.

You logic is just...interesting.
Welfare benefits meant for citizens, are abused by illegal residents, so the problem is the system that allows them to benefit.
Yeah, and the problem is not bank robbers, it is the banking system that allows itself to be robbed.
The problem is not law enforcement, it is the businesses, that allow themselves to be victims.
Click to expand...

Illegal immigrants cannot claim food stamps
Are 43 Percent of All Food Stamps 'Given to Illegals'?

Public housing, at least from the federal government is limited to citizens as well
No, undocumented immigrants aren’t impacting the waitlist for public housing in Houston | PolitiFact Texas

A total of $1.1 billion was spent on healthcare for illegal immigrants or roughly 0.13% of total government healthcare expenditures
Illegal Immigrants – and Other Non-Citizens – Should Not Receive Government Healthcare | Cato @ Liberty

Like I said, illegal immigrants overall pay more into the system than they get out. Even if that wasn't the case, the simple solution would be to make welfare only available to citizens or maybe even to make cuts to save money.
 
Masterhawk said:
Illegal immigrants cannot claim food stamps
Are 43 Percent of All Food Stamps 'Given to Illegals'?
Public housing, at least from the federal government is limited to citizens as well
No, undocumented immigrants aren’t impacting the waitlist for public housing in Houston | PolitiFact Texas
Click to expand...

From your source: "However, "mixed-status" families — those with family members of different immigration statuses — are allowed to live in public housing, as long as at least one member of the family is eligible to receive assistance (including children born in the U.S. or a spouse).
Nationally, about 25,000 households of the 1.2 million living in public housing units (about 2%) have at least one family member who is ineligible to receive assistance, according to an analysis by HUD."

So, limited to citizens, and relatives who are illegal residents.
At least 25k households, with one or more members who are ineligible.
What do you call someone who is not eligible for something, and takes it anyway? A thief?
A total of $1.1 billion was spent on healthcare for illegal immigrants or roughly 0.13% of total government healthcare expenditures
Illegal Immigrants – and Other Non-Citizens – Should Not Receive Government Healthcare | Cato @ Liberty
Click to expand...
Wait, you misquoted.
Let me help.
illegal immigrants between the ages of 18-64 consumed about $1.1 billion."
So, I wonder how much was spent on Young and old...must be about 9 billion.
Like I said, illegal immigrants overall pay more into the system than they get out. Even if that wasn't the case, the simple solution would be to make welfare only available to citizens or maybe even to make cuts to save money.
Click to expand...

Not a shred of evidence how much they pay.
Not a shred of evidence how much they collect.

Illegal residents are not responsible for their children.
When citizen children with illegal residence parents receive education, food, housing, medical care, no one thinks the parents are responsible for them.
The illegal resident parent receives "no benefit" from all of the benefits their children receive. Thousands of dollars every month, but the illegal resident receives no benefit.
They receive no benefit, because they are not responsible for their own children.
Click to expand...
 
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