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Thread: How to argue for immigration restrictions

  1. #11
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    Re: How to argue for immigration restrictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Norml View Post
    As Milton Freidman observed, open borders and a welfare state are incompatible.
    Libertarians are against border walls, and against government social welfare programs.
    When faced with a strong welfare state, and the possibility of open borders, what does a Libertarian choose.
    Some choose idealism first, some make a pragmatic decision, and say dismantle the welfare state, and the walls will come down.


    In a void, Libertarians choose no borders, but the issue does not exist in a void. No Libertarian supports welfare expenditures for citizens, not for legal immigrants, and certainly not illegal residents.

    Rand Paul is willing to have the government build border walls, if expenditures are cut in other areas.
    Ron Paul and Rand Paul are two libertarians who do not support open borders, under the current state of affairs.

    I find it interesting that there are two groups of immigrants, for all years, at all times. In discussion of immigrants, this distinction is often ignored.

    Sometimes statements are made that only apply to one group or the other, but a blanket statement is made, that that pulls both groups together.
    The problem is, “immigrants” may refer only to “legal immigrants”, or it may refer only to “illegal residents”, or it may refer to “all immigrants, regardless of legal status”. The terms are used interchangeably, with no explanations.

    There are huge differences between these two groups, mostly having to do with education and skills, eligibility for social services, ability to be self sufficient from the moment of residency.

    There are very few statistics for illegal residents using social welfare, yet no one denies that illegal residents are the payment name, and recipient of free HUD housing, receive food stamps, that feed the whole family, legal and illegal residents alike.
    The illegal resident children go to school, get a free education, get free meals while at school, but no one knows how many children, how much money has been spent, because there are no statistics.

    If 40% of a school district is on food stamps, all of the children get free meals and snacks, regardless of income, and regardless of residency status, legal or illegal. No one knows how much is spent on illegal residents, because there are no records available.

    The cost to pay for health care for unauthorized immigrants is over $10 Billion per year. Nearly twice that, by some calculations.

    Conservative estimates put the national cost of health care for all immigrants to be over $36 billion per year. Total actual cost, with state share, etc, is likely twice that.

    In a social welfare state such as the USA, there is a government cost for all immigrants, but most of that cost is for illegal residents, and most of those costs are hidden from the public. Libertarians are against all such expenditures, on principle.

    The only way to prevent this unappreciated burden of paying for the needs of others, is to have secure borders. That is the position of pragmatic Libertarians.
    First of all, illegal immigrants put more into the welfare state than they take out. Payroll tax gets taken out of their paychecks as with everyone else but they don't get to claim benefits since doing so would risk them getting deported. Even legal immigrants cannot claim benefits until they have resided in the country for five years. The only government program they really qualify for is public education.

    Secondly, even if this were true, the real problem is with the welfare state, not with open immigration. In that case, the welfare state could be reformed so that only citizens are eligible or have it simply abolished.

  2. #12
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    Re: How to argue for immigration restrictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Masterhawk View Post
    First of all, illegal immigrants put more into the welfare state than they take out. Payroll tax gets taken out of their paychecks as with everyone else but they don't get to claim benefits since doing so would risk them getting deported. Even legal immigrants cannot claim benefits until they have resided in the country for five years. The only government program they really qualify for is public education.

    Secondly, even if this were true, the real problem is with the welfare state, not with open immigration. In that case, the welfare state could be reformed so that only citizens are eligible or have it simply abolished.
    As usual, no facts, just hot air.
    Ten billion per year, just for health care for illegal residents.
    You can not even show how that much was paid by illegals in taxes. All of them together, do not pay the equivelent of the health care benefits they receive.

    There is not a welfare benefit available to citizens, that is not given to illegals.

    They reside in public housing.
    They eat from food stamps.
    Children get free meals and snacks at school.
    They receive benefit of energy assistance.
    Pregnant illegal residents get free hospital care.

    You logic is just...interesting.
    Welfare benefits meant for citizens, are abused by illegal residents, so the problem is the system that allows them to benefit.
    Yeah, and the problem is not bank robbers, it is the banking system that allows itself to be robbed.
    The problem is not law enforcement, it is the businesses, that allow themselves to be victims.

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    Re: How to argue for immigration restrictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Norml View Post
    As usual, no facts, just hot air.
    Ten billion per year, just for health care for illegal residents.
    You can not even show how that much was paid by illegals in taxes. All of them together, do not pay the equivelent of the health care benefits they receive.

    There is not a welfare benefit available to citizens, that is not given to illegals.

    They reside in public housing.
    They eat from food stamps.
    Children get free meals and snacks at school.
    They receive benefit of energy assistance.
    Pregnant illegal residents get free hospital care.

    You logic is just...interesting.
    Welfare benefits meant for citizens, are abused by illegal residents, so the problem is the system that allows them to benefit.
    Yeah, and the problem is not bank robbers, it is the banking system that allows itself to be robbed.
    The problem is not law enforcement, it is the businesses, that allow themselves to be victims.
    Illegal immigrants cannot claim food stamps
    Are 43 Percent of All Food Stamps 'Given to Illegals'?

    Public housing, at least from the federal government is limited to citizens as well
    No, undocumented immigrants aren’t impacting the waitlist for public housing in Houston | PolitiFact Texas

    A total of $1.1 billion was spent on healthcare for illegal immigrants or roughly 0.13% of total government healthcare expenditures
    Illegal Immigrants – and Other Non-Citizens – Should Not Receive Government Healthcare | Cato @ Liberty

    Like I said, illegal immigrants overall pay more into the system than they get out. Even if that wasn't the case, the simple solution would be to make welfare only available to citizens or maybe even to make cuts to save money.

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    Re: How to argue for immigration restrictions

    [QUOTE=Masterhawk;1071166341]Illegal immigrants cannot claim food stamps
    Are 43 Percent of All Food Stamps 'Given to Illegals'?
    Public housing, at least from the federal government is limited to citizens as well
    No, undocumented immigrants aren’t impacting the waitlist for public housing in Houston | PolitiFact Texas
    From your source: "However, "mixed-status" families — those with family members of different immigration statuses — are allowed to live in public housing, as long as at least one member of the family is eligible to receive assistance (including children born in the U.S. or a spouse).
    Nationally, about 25,000 households of the 1.2 million living in public housing units (about 2%) have at least one family member who is ineligible to receive assistance, according to an analysis by HUD."

    So, limited to citizens, and relatives who are illegal residents.
    At least 25k households, with one or more members who are ineligible.
    What do you call someone who is not eligible for something, and takes it anyway? A thief?
    A total of $1.1 billion was spent on healthcare for illegal immigrants or roughly 0.13% of total government healthcare expenditures
    Illegal Immigrants – and Other Non-Citizens – Should Not Receive Government Healthcare | Cato @ Liberty
    Wait, you misquoted.
    Let me help.
    illegal immigrants between the ages of 18-64 consumed about $1.1 billion."
    So, I wonder how much was spent on Young and old...must be about 9 billion.
    Like I said, illegal immigrants overall pay more into the system than they get out. Even if that wasn't the case, the simple solution would be to make welfare only available to citizens or maybe even to make cuts to save money.
    Not a shred of evidence how much they pay.
    Not a shred of evidence how much they collect.

    Illegal residents are not responsible for their children.
    When citizen children with illegal residence parents receive education, food, housing, medical care, no one thinks the parents are responsible for them.
    The illegal resident parent receives "no benefit" from all of the benefits their children receive. Thousands of dollars every month, but the illegal resident receives no benefit.
    They receive no benefit, because they are not responsible for their own children.

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