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how easy is legal immigration?

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Masterhawk

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Many conservatives and quite a few independents want the illegal immigrants rounded up and deported. The main argument is that the illegal immigrants should have come here legally but how easy is that?

Let's say that you're a Mexican who's yearning for the sweet American dream. Unlike some people, you decide to do it the legal way. So, what do you need to do?

To get into the US legally, you must apply for an immigrant visa. The full process can be found at this link:
https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...rate/the-immigrant-visa-process/petition.html

After all is said and done, you must register for the Diversity Visa Program after which, applicants will be allowed in based on a lottery. This lottery first prioritizes immediate relatives of immigrants who are already in the US. Part of the reason for this lottery is because the US has an immigration cap of 675,000 as of August 12, 2016.
https://www.us-immigration.com/us-i...ally-come-to-the-united-states/?r=blog-p27133
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works

It could take years for you to get into the US legally as a permanent resident. Is it really any wonder that some choose to forego the whole process and just cross the border? Or maybe just overstay a temporary visa?

Donald Trump once said that he has no problem with legal immigration. He should prove it by making reforms to the immigration process which make it faster. That way, it will be easier to discern true immigrants from gang members and human traffickers.
 
Regardless of how easy or hard the process, the United States still retains the right to determine who and how many are allowed within its borders.

That being said; the process itself could definitely benefit from a less drawn out and cumbersome streamlining.
 
Masterhawk said:
Many conservatives and quite a few independents want the illegal immigrants rounded up and deported. The main argument is that the illegal immigrants should have come here legally but how easy is that?

Let's say that you're a Mexican who's yearning for the sweet American dream. Unlike some people, you decide to do it the legal way. So, what do you need to do?

To get into the US legally, you must apply for an immigrant visa. The full process can be found at this link:
https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...rate/the-immigrant-visa-process/petition.html

After all is said and done, you must register for the Diversity Visa Program after which, applicants will be allowed in based on a lottery. This lottery first prioritizes immediate relatives of immigrants who are already in the US. Part of the reason for this lottery is because the US has an immigration cap of 675,000 as of August 12, 2016.
https://www.us-immigration.com/us-i...ally-come-to-the-united-states/?r=blog-p27133
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works

It could take years for you to get into the US legally as a permanent resident. Is it really any wonder that some choose to forego the whole process and just cross the border? Or maybe just overstay a temporary visa?

Donald Trump once said that he has no problem with legal immigration. He should prove it by making reforms to the immigration process which make it faster. That way, it will be easier to discern true immigrants from gang members and human traffickers.
Click to expand...

In addition to what Polar Bum said:

Using the excuse that the immigration process is "too hard" is nothing more than an excuse to excuse illegal immigration. There is no excuse for going into or staying in any country without that countries consent. Just like there is no excuse for someone to illegally enter your house and stay there no matter what you say. Even if they clean your house (thereby benefiting you) I'm quite sure that you don't want strangers living in your house and would be calling the cops.
 
It does not matter how easy or hard immigration is, it does not excuse illegal immigration and should not be part of the debate on illegal immigration. The only debate where how hard the immigration is relevant is how it affects the attraction of needed talent to the country in question.
 
You know what else is hard? Living. Holding down a job. Raising a family. Paying taxes. Dealing with stupid people. Even dying is expensive now. Life is hard, and the argument of "It's so hard for them!" really doesn't hold any weight with the people who live here legally(and especially not with those who came here legally). We've all got our own problems. That being said, most people even slightly right are all about cutting down on bloated government bureaucracy and inefficiency.
 
Carjosse said:
It does not matter how easy or hard immigration is, it does not excuse illegal immigration and should not be part of the debate on illegal immigration. The only debate where how hard the immigration is relevant is how it affects the attraction of needed talent to the country in question.
Click to expand...

With that logic, you could justify any government policy, including the war on drugs, prohibition, even the holocaust.
 
Masterhawk said:
With that logic, you could justify any government policy, including the war on drugs, prohibition, even the holocaust.
Click to expand...

Comparing securing our National borders to the Holocaust? :roll:


:failpail:
 
Masterhawk said:
Many conservatives and quite a few independents want the illegal immigrants rounded up and deported. The main argument is that the illegal immigrants should have come here legally but how easy is that?

Let's say that you're a Mexican who's yearning for the sweet American dream. Unlike some people, you decide to do it the legal way. So, what do you need to do?

To get into the US legally, you must apply for an immigrant visa. The full process can be found at this link:
https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...rate/the-immigrant-visa-process/petition.html

After all is said and done, you must register for the Diversity Visa Program after which, applicants will be allowed in based on a lottery. This lottery first prioritizes immediate relatives of immigrants who are already in the US. Part of the reason for this lottery is because the US has an immigration cap of 675,000 as of August 12, 2016.
https://www.us-immigration.com/us-i...ally-come-to-the-united-states/?r=blog-p27133
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works

It could take years for you to get into the US legally as a permanent resident. Is it really any wonder that some choose to forego the whole process and just cross the border? Or maybe just overstay a temporary visa?

Donald Trump once said that he has no problem with legal immigration. He should prove it by making reforms to the immigration process which make it faster. That way, it will be easier to discern true immigrants from gang members and human traffickers.
Click to expand...

A million people a year come into the US legally each year. We naturalize over 650,000 to almost 780,000 immigrants a year and we have at least 12.6 million green card holders. So the idea that we need to loosen our immigration laws is laughable. As other posters pointed out the difficulty of our immigration laws doesn't excuse those coming here illegally. If anything we should let in less people a year seeing how a good 12 to 20 million people are here illegally and its estimated that nearly half of those came in legally with the intention over staying their visa.

Naturalization Fact Sheet | USCIS
Green Card Holders and Legal Immigration to the United States | migrationpolicy.org
Marco Rubio says U.S. admits 1 million immigrants a year, far more than any nation | PolitiFact Florida
 
Masterhawk said:
Many conservatives and quite a few independents want the illegal immigrants rounded up and deported. The main argument is that the illegal immigrants should have come here legally but how easy is that?

Let's say that you're a Mexican who's yearning for the sweet American dream. Unlike some people, you decide to do it the legal way. So, what do you need to do?

To get into the US legally, you must apply for an immigrant visa. The full process can be found at this link:
https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...rate/the-immigrant-visa-process/petition.html

After all is said and done, you must register for the Diversity Visa Program after which, applicants will be allowed in based on a lottery. This lottery first prioritizes immediate relatives of immigrants who are already in the US. Part of the reason for this lottery is because the US has an immigration cap of 675,000 as of August 12, 2016.
https://www.us-immigration.com/us-i...ally-come-to-the-united-states/?r=blog-p27133
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works

It could take years for you to get into the US legally as a permanent resident. Is it really any wonder that some choose to forego the whole process and just cross the border? Or maybe just overstay a temporary visa?

Donald Trump once said that he has no problem with legal immigration. He should prove it by making reforms to the immigration process which make it faster. That way, it will be easier to discern true immigrants from gang members and human traffickers.
Click to expand...


Tough. NO EXCUSES. If you want something bad enough, you work for it. Many people have and continue to follow the process. In the past 10 years, over 7.4 million people followed the legal process.

https://www.uscis.gov/news/fact-sheets/naturalization-fact-sheet
citizens.JPG
 
holbritter said:
Tough. NO EXCUSES. If you want something bad enough, you work for it. Many people have and continue to follow the process. In the past 10 years, over 7.4 million people followed the legal process.

https://www.uscis.gov/news/fact-sheets/naturalization-fact-sheet
View attachment 67236455
Click to expand...

It's good that 7.4 million people followed the legal process. It would be even better if it were made easier for others to do the same so that honest people don't have to come in illegally.
 
Polar Bum said:
Comparing securing our National borders to the Holocaust? :roll:


:failpail:
Click to expand...

You were basically saying that illegal immigration is bad because it breaks the law. I was just pointing out that taking the side of the government just for its own sake has its own problems. I wasn't actually comparing it to the holocaust.
 
Kal'Stang said:
In addition to what Polar Bum said:

Using the excuse that the immigration process is "too hard" is nothing more than an excuse to excuse illegal immigration. There is no excuse for going into or staying in any country without that countries consent. Just like there is no excuse for someone to illegally enter your house and stay there no matter what you say. Even if they clean your house (thereby benefiting you) I'm quite sure that you don't want strangers living in your house and would be calling the cops.
Click to expand...

With that logic, wouldn't that mean that all Americans are living on government property? If so, how could the fourth amendment possibly apply?
 
Masterhawk said:
You basically compared lines drawn in the sand to actual property. People don't just want to let anyone into their homes because it's their property.
Click to expand...

Lines drawn in the sand....You mean like what peoples property essentially has? I'm assuming by "lines drawn in the sand" to mean the US/Mexican/Canadian border? Lines on a map type deal? Well, when I examine property I don't see "lines drawn in the sand". But those "lines" still exist in the law. Just like the US borders exist in the law.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Lines drawn in the sand....You mean like what peoples property essentially has? I'm assuming by "lines drawn in the sand" to mean the US/Mexican/Canadian border? Lines on a map type deal? Well, when I examine property I don't see "lines drawn in the sand". But those "lines" still exist in the law. Just like the US borders exist in the law.
Click to expand...

It appears he wants to play the "National borders shouldn't exist" card...get rid of property rights and National sovereignty.....how hip and socially trendy. :roll:
 
Masterhawk said:
It could take years for you to get into the US legally as a permanent resident.
Click to expand...

So basically you're making the argument for not belittling and minimizing the time, effort, and cost that people who choose to actually follow the laws of the country and immigrate here legally by basically hand waving the illegality performed by all those that didn't. Thanks.

I have no issue with looking for ways to reduce the bureaucratic mess as it relates to immigration, streamlining it where possible, and implementing more robust measures in various programs...like work visas...to deal with some of the instances where immigration is useful and beneficial. I'd like to note that last part as well...a countries immigration policy, first and foremost, should be about what is beneficial to that country (that does not necessarily mean "allow in any and everyone that wants to without any limits other than 'no gang members'"). I also don't think that these kind of changes should just occur on their own, absent attempts to first sure up and establish practices for enforcement of our current laws, and without measures within it to make sure that they don't exacerbate such a problem. I.E. expand the worker visa program, but be sure there's ample ways and means to track and monitor individuals on it to be sure they are doing and coming/going as they should be, and significant penalties and ramifications if they attempt to forgo those checks.
 
Last edited:
Masterhawk said:
You were basically saying that illegal immigration is bad because it breaks the law. I was just pointing out that taking the side of the government just for its own sake has its own problems. I wasn't actually comparing it to the holocaust.
Click to expand...

No, you said that.


I said earlier that the Nation has a right to control immigration...and those laws are in place for good reasons.


Simply because you do not agree with those reasons does not invalidate them; were I to start laying out the reasons, you would simply complain that they are arbitrary, or try to rationalize your own personal views.
 
Masterhawk said:
Many conservatives and quite a few independents want the illegal immigrants rounded up and deported. The main argument is that the illegal immigrants should have come here legally but how easy is that?
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter how easy or not easy the process is. We have laws. I am expected to follow the laws that our country sets so why are they not supposed to?
that is what i simply don't get.

Let's say that you're a Mexican who's yearning for the sweet American dream. Unlike some people, you decide to do it the legal way. So, what do you need to do?

To get into the US legally, you must apply for an immigrant visa. The full process can be found at this link:
https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...rate/the-immigrant-visa-process/petition.html

After all is said and done, you must register for the Diversity Visa Program after which, applicants will be allowed in based on a lottery. This lottery first prioritizes immediate relatives of immigrants who are already in the US. Part of the reason for this lottery is because the US has an immigration cap of 675,000 as of August 12, 2016.
https://www.us-immigration.com/us-i...ally-come-to-the-united-states/?r=blog-p27133
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works

It could take years for you to get into the US legally as a permanent resident. Is it really any wonder that some choose to forego the whole process and just cross the border? Or maybe just overstay a temporary visa?
Click to expand...

Which means they should be deported. Most of the illegals are here on expired visas as well.
How hard is it to fill out the form to renew? not really. I do believe you can do it online.
Either way we expect people that want to come here to abide by the laws that we set.

If you can't do the simple thing of immigrating here correctly then how can we expect that you will
do anything else?

Donald Trump once said that he has no problem with legal immigration. He should prove it by making reforms to the immigration process which make it faster. That way, it will be easier to discern true immigrants from gang members and human traffickers.
Click to expand...

he tried. Democrats wouldn't pass a bill to do it.

Trump can do nothing without congress.

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/25/580858256/white-house-releases-draft-immigration-plan
 
Zyphlin said:
So basically you're making the argument for not belittling and minimizing the time, effort, and cost that people who choose to actually follow the laws of the country and immigrate here legally by basically hand waving the illegality performed by all those that didn't. Thanks.

I have no issue with looking for ways to reduce the bureaucratic mess as it relates to immigration, streamlining it where possible, and implementing more robust measures in various programs...like work visas...to deal with some of the instances where immigration is useful and beneficial. I'd like to note that last part as well...a countries immigration policy, first and foremost, should be about what is beneficial to that country (that does not necessarily mean "allow in any and everyone that wants to without any limits other than 'no gang members'"). I also don't think that these kind of changes should just occur on their own, absent attempts to first sure up and establish practices for enforcement of our current laws, and without measures within it to make sure that they don't exacerbate such a problem. I.E. expand the worker visa program, but be sure there's ample ways and means to track and monitor individuals on it to be sure they are doing and coming/going as they should be, and significant penalties and ramifications if they attempt to forgo those checks.
Click to expand...

People complain about our immigration laws.

They fail to see the immigration laws of our neighbors north and south.

They are much tougher and much more strict than what we have.

https://moving2canada.com/immigration-to-canada-from-the-usa/

https://www.mexperience.com/lifestyle/living-in-mexico/visas-and-immigration/
 
Polar Bum said:
Regardless of how easy or hard the process, the United States still retains the right to determine who and how many are allowed within its borders.
Click to expand...

If you made it illegal to throw garbage in a public trash can on Tuesday you'd see a rise in littering on Tuesdays. You don't get to blame people for the obvious consequences of you're stupid laws, and you certainly don't get to treat people like murders and rapists just because they're looking for a better opportunity for their family and children.
 
MrWonka said:
If you made it illegal to throw garbage in a public trash can on Tuesday you'd see a rise in littering on Tuesdays. You don't get to blame people for the obvious consequences of you're stupid laws, and you certainly don't get to treat people like murders and rapists just because they're looking for a better opportunity for their family and children.
Click to expand...

Yet another attempt to invalidate National Borders based upon personal emoting.

If you don't like the laws, do something to change them, if they are not changed, then please, feel free to break the laws, but don't act shocked and surprised when you have to pay the consequences. :shrug:
 
Masterhawk said:
It's good that 7.4 million people followed the legal process. It would be even better if it were made easier for others to do the same so that honest people don't have to come in illegally.
Click to expand...

They are not honest if they do something illegal. Just how many people per year should we let in? Please give a number that's acceptable to you. Remember there are finite resources.
 
holbritter said:
They are not honest if they do something illegal. Just how many people per year should we let in? Please give a number that's acceptable to you. Remember there are finite resources.
Click to expand...

Remember there are renewable resources and the average immigrant, legal or not, is a net positive economically. We begin the answer to your question with max population density. Is Japan's population density the most we want? Some argue for Japanese immigration policy, so let's say we do that at the same density. That's 3.5 billion Americans. The US is above replacement fertility, so let's say 1 billion are native (that's probably twice what's possibly reasonable). That would require generations and impact temporal considerations which are next. How fast do we take in 2 billion immigrants. A year, 10 years, 30?

Now, if we'd like to discuss a more reasonable policy, we could look at Euro pop density.
 
Polar Bum said:
Regardless of how easy or hard the process, the United States still retains the right to determine who and how many are allowed within its borders.

That being said; the process itself could definitely benefit from a less drawn out and cumbersome streamlining.
Click to expand...

Yes, and Trump has been trying to slash legal immigration. I resent listening to people who make a huge deal out of illegal immigration, ask why immigrants cannot just do it legally, but don't bother to look into just how hard and uncertain doing it legally is.

A useful conversation about immigration must take account not merely of principle, but of the real-world behavior of people in response to what the law is regardless of whether one thinks their behavior is justified, or 'right', or better characterized by some other moral sentiment. Any solution must be pragmatic. Anything else and you end up with more problems than you would otherwise have.



One of the biggest reasons our legal structure and enforcement apparatus (not just in immigration) is so inefficient is because politicians get votes by shouting about who is right and wrong instead of reaching a pragmatic solution.

Kal'Stang said:
In addition to what Polar Bum said:

Using the excuse that the immigration process is "too hard" is nothing more than an excuse to excuse illegal immigration. There is no excuse for going into or staying in any country without that countries consent. Just like there is no excuse for someone to illegally enter your house and stay there no matter what you say. Even if they clean your house (thereby benefiting you) I'm quite sure that you don't want strangers living in your house and would be calling the cops.
Click to expand...

Stamping your feet and condemning people is pretty much guaranteed to provide a sub-optimal result. It may feel good to condemn them, but unless we fix up the legal immigration process we're going to have more illegals then we otherwise would have, wall or no wall.

:shrug:

So, yeah, they shouldn't be here illegally. But they are here illegally and they're going to keep coming. We need to move far past "but they're wrong!" if we really do want to make sure less of them come here illegally.
 
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