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how easy is legal immigration?

Yes, and Trump has been trying to slash legal immigration. I resent listening to people who make a huge deal out of illegal immigration, ask why immigrants cannot just do it legally, but don't bother to look into just how hard and uncertain doing it legally is.

A useful conversation about immigration must take account not merely of principle, but of the real-world behavior of people in response to what the law is regardless of whether one thinks their behavior is justified, or 'right', or better characterized by some other moral sentiment. Any solution must be pragmatic. Anything else and you end up with more problems than you would otherwise have.



One of the biggest reasons our legal structure and enforcement apparatus (not just in immigration) is so inefficient is because politicians get votes by shouting about who is right and wrong instead of reaching a pragmatic solution.



Stamping your feet and condemning people is pretty much guaranteed to provide a sub-optimal result. It may feel good to condemn them, but unless we fix up the legal immigration process we're going to have more illegals then we otherwise would have, wall or no wall.

:shrug:

So, yeah, they shouldn't be here illegally. But they are here illegally and they're going to keep coming. We need to move far past "but they're wrong!" if we really do want to make sure less of them come here illegally.

The above bolded is absolutely on target; but given the polarization of our political system and Nation, I do not see this happening anytime soon.
 
So basically you're making the argument for not belittling and minimizing the time, effort, and cost that people who choose to actually follow the laws of the country and immigrate here legally by basically hand waving the illegality performed by all those that didn't. Thanks.

I have no issue with looking for ways to reduce the bureaucratic mess as it relates to immigration, streamlining it where possible, and implementing more robust measures in various programs...like work visas...to deal with some of the instances where immigration is useful and beneficial. I'd like to note that last part as well...a countries immigration policy, first and foremost, should be about what is beneficial to that country (that does not necessarily mean "allow in any and everyone that wants to without any limits other than 'no gang members'"). I also don't think that these kind of changes should just occur on their own, absent attempts to first sure up and establish practices for enforcement of our current laws, and without measures within it to make sure that they don't exacerbate such a problem. I.E. expand the worker visa program, but be sure there's ample ways and means to track and monitor individuals on it to be sure they are doing and coming/going as they should be, and significant penalties and ramifications if they attempt to forgo those checks.

That's what I was trying to say. Make the legal immigration process easier so that less people resort to crossing the border illegally or overstaying their visas. The same reasoning is used by people who want to legalize drugs: move them to a legal market so that the drugs are less dangerous. I don't care if the illegal immigrants are deported, so long as there is a reliable way for non criminal immigrants to get into the country legally. At that point, the conservatives will have every right to point out that the illegals should have done it the legal way.
 
People complain about our immigration laws.

They fail to see the immigration laws of our neighbors north and south.

They are much tougher and much more strict than what we have.

https://moving2canada.com/immigration-to-canada-from-the-usa/

https://www.mexperience.com/lifestyle/living-in-mexico/visas-and-immigration/

Regardless of how strict the immigration laws of other countries are, that doesn't automatically make the US blameless when it comes to immigration.
 
Regardless of how strict the immigration laws of other countries are, that doesn't automatically make the US blameless when it comes to immigration.

strawman argument.

Ellis island was a great place. The problem is now that there are too many people crossing the border illegally.
Yep we can have a more streamlined immigration process but no one will agree to it.

I heavily believe in income validation along with job skill requirements.
If you are a master tradesman then you are welcome. if you are another professional that is fine.
For instance Canada has a settlement requirement. The same as Mexico.

For canada you must have 10k canadian per person and an additional 2k for each dependent.
which means a family of 4 would need 22k canadian unless you have pre-arranged employment already.

Mexico
If you intend to apply for permanent residency you will need to demonstrate an income per month over the past six months of at least least 500 days’ worth of minimum wage (approximately US$2,325*) or have savings equivalent amounting to 20,000 days’ worth of minimum wage (approximately US$93,000*) over the past 12 months.

If you want to come here and are already here illegally then you need to leave and apply legally.
if not you will be deported fine and not allowed to apply for the next 5 years.
 
It's good that 7.4 million people followed the legal process. It would be even better if it were made easier for others to do the same so that honest people don't have to come in illegally.

Why do people "have to" come into the States? And why is the US obligated to take them in?
 
Why do people "have to" come into the States? And why is the US obligated to take them in?

The burden of proof is not on the immigrants who want to come in but rather on the state to forbid them from coming in. You see, the burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim (not the one refuting it) and people for immigration restrictions make the claim that taxpayer money must be used to stop people from coming in.
 
Many conservatives and quite a few independents want the illegal immigrants rounded up and deported. The main argument is that the illegal immigrants should have come here legally but how easy is that?

Let's say that you're a Mexican who's yearning for the sweet American dream. Unlike some people, you decide to do it the legal way. So, what do you need to do?

To get into the US legally, you must apply for an immigrant visa. The full process can be found at this link:
https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...rate/the-immigrant-visa-process/petition.html

After all is said and done, you must register for the Diversity Visa Program after which, applicants will be allowed in based on a lottery. This lottery first prioritizes immediate relatives of immigrants who are already in the US. Part of the reason for this lottery is because the US has an immigration cap of 675,000 as of August 12, 2016.
https://www.us-immigration.com/us-i...ally-come-to-the-united-states/?r=blog-p27133
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works

It could take years for you to get into the US legally as a permanent resident. Is it really any wonder that some choose to forego the whole process and just cross the border? Or maybe just overstay a temporary visa?

Donald Trump once said that he has no problem with legal immigration. He should prove it by making reforms to the immigration process which make it faster. That way, it will be easier to discern true immigrants from gang members and human traffickers.

Along with the 675,000 you also have those seeking asylum and those who have children or marry their way into our country. Most estimates put it close to 1 million a year that are granted immigration status. This does not include those here on various types of visas. Some that I know personally have had work visas for over 20 years. They have been applying for immigration status the entire time. However they are passed over by people who are here illegally and have anchor babies and marry to circumvent the legal process. It is sad that millions of law abiding people from all over the world will never get immigration status to this country while we grant immigration status to those who break our laws and circumvent our process. It is sad that a bunch illegal lawless people think they determine our immigration process not the citizens of this country.
 
The burden of proof is not on the immigrants who want to come in but rather on the state to forbid them from coming in. You see, the burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim (not the one refuting it) and people for immigration restrictions make the claim that taxpayer money must be used to stop people from coming in.

What does "burden of proof" have to do with anything? We are talking about immigration, not debating on a forum.
 
Many conservatives and quite a few independents want the illegal immigrants rounded up and deported. The main argument is that the illegal immigrants should have come here legally but how easy is that?

Let's say that you're a Mexican who's yearning for the sweet American dream. Unlike some people, you decide to do it the legal way. So, what do you need to do?

To get into the US legally, you must apply for an immigrant visa. The full process can be found at this link:
https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...rate/the-immigrant-visa-process/petition.html

After all is said and done, you must register for the Diversity Visa Program after which, applicants will be allowed in based on a lottery. This lottery first prioritizes immediate relatives of immigrants who are already in the US. Part of the reason for this lottery is because the US has an immigration cap of 675,000 as of August 12, 2016.
https://www.us-immigration.com/us-i...ally-come-to-the-united-states/?r=blog-p27133
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works

It could take years for you to get into the US legally as a permanent resident. Is it really any wonder that some choose to forego the whole process and just cross the border? Or maybe just overstay a temporary visa?

Donald Trump once said that he has no problem with legal immigration. He should prove it by making reforms to the immigration process which make it faster. That way, it will be easier to discern true immigrants from gang members and human traffickers.

Excessive immigration in California has led to high poverty and a unique “California style” apartheid where the poor have mostly reassumed their roles, but in a different country. Critical mass has been reached where language, culture, and social mores need not migrate to those of the host country, because the communities are large enough they are quite literally “countries within countries”.

BTW, Trump can’t do much about immigration. That is congresses job. That’s why nothing gets done. They would rather do nothing than take a stand. So here we are fighting executive orders that should never have been issued in the first place.
 
Excessive immigration in California has led to high poverty and a unique “California style” apartheid where the poor have mostly reassumed their roles, but in a different country. Critical mass has been reached where language, culture, and social mores need not migrate to those of the host country, because the communities are large enough they are quite literally “countries within countries”.

BTW, Trump can’t do much about immigration. That is congresses job. That’s why nothing gets done. They would rather do nothing than take a stand. So here we are fighting executive orders that should never have been issued in the first place.

Are you sure none of it has to do with the high cost of living or maybe the regulations in the state? Meanwhile, only 11.5% of the UAE's population are citizens and yet Dubai is living it large.
 
Many conservatives and quite a few independents want the illegal immigrants rounded up and deported. The main argument is that the illegal immigrants should have come here legally but how easy is that?

Let's say that you're a Mexican who's yearning for the sweet American dream. Unlike some people, you decide to do it the legal way. So, what do you need to do?

To get into the US legally, you must apply for an immigrant visa. The full process can be found at this link:
https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...rate/the-immigrant-visa-process/petition.html

After all is said and done, you must register for the Diversity Visa Program after which, applicants will be allowed in based on a lottery. This lottery first prioritizes immediate relatives of immigrants who are already in the US. Part of the reason for this lottery is because the US has an immigration cap of 675,000 as of August 12, 2016.
https://www.us-immigration.com/us-i...ally-come-to-the-united-states/?r=blog-p27133
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works

It could take years for you to get into the US legally as a permanent resident. Is it really any wonder that some choose to forego the whole process and just cross the border? Or maybe just overstay a temporary visa?

Donald Trump once said that he has no problem with legal immigration. He should prove it by making reforms to the immigration process which make it faster. That way, it will be easier to discern true immigrants from gang members and human traffickers.

Mexicans can't file for the diversity lottery.
 
Excessive immigration in California has led to high poverty and a unique “California style” apartheid where the poor have mostly reassumed their roles, but in a different country. Critical mass has been reached where language, culture, and social mores need not migrate to those of the host country, because the communities are large enough they are quite literally “countries within countries”.

BTW, Trump can’t do much about immigration. That is congresses job. That’s why nothing gets done. They would rather do nothing than take a stand. So here we are fighting executive orders that should never have been issued in the first place.

Only 7% of California residents are in the country illegally...
 
Along with the 675,000 you also have those seeking asylum and those who have children or marry their way into our country. Most estimates put it close to 1 million a year that are granted immigration status. This does not include those here on various types of visas. Some that I know personally have had work visas for over 20 years. They have been applying for immigration status the entire time. However they are passed over by people who are here illegally and have anchor babies and marry to circumvent the legal process. It is sad that millions of law abiding people from all over the world will never get immigration status to this country while we grant immigration status to those who break our laws and circumvent our process. It is sad that a bunch illegal lawless people think they determine our immigration process not the citizens of this country.

Since people here undocumented cannot adjust their status in any fashion how do you figure legal immigrants are being passed over to make undocumented ones legal?
 
Many conservatives and quite a few independents want the illegal immigrants rounded up and deported. The main argument is that the illegal immigrants should have come here legally but how easy is that?

Let's say that you're a Mexican who's yearning for the sweet American dream. Unlike some people, you decide to do it the legal way. So, what do you need to do?

To get into the US legally, you must apply for an immigrant visa. The full process can be found at this link:
https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...rate/the-immigrant-visa-process/petition.html

After all is said and done, you must register for the Diversity Visa Program after which, applicants will be allowed in based on a lottery. This lottery first prioritizes immediate relatives of immigrants who are already in the US. Part of the reason for this lottery is because the US has an immigration cap of 675,000 as of August 12, 2016.
https://www.us-immigration.com/us-i...ally-come-to-the-united-states/?r=blog-p27133
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works

It could take years for you to get into the US legally as a permanent resident. Is it really any wonder that some choose to forego the whole process and just cross the border? Or maybe just overstay a temporary visa?

Donald Trump once said that he has no problem with legal immigration. He should prove it by making reforms to the immigration process which make it faster. That way, it will be easier to discern true immigrants from gang members and human traffickers.
Trump can't do it on his own. Congress has to pass the laws. As I recall he has talked about changes to legal immigration.
 
With that logic, you could justify any government policy, including the war on drugs, prohibition, even the holocaust.
Give me a break. Imposing restrictions on who we allow to enter our country is a basic function of government.
 
Give me a break. Imposing restrictions on who we allow to enter our country is a basic function of government.

Yes, but laws should be fair. Denying entry to a US citizens spouse with no criminal record is wrong, even if that person is here illegally...pre 1996 they paid a fine, were on a conditional status for 2 years and then they adjusted status...that system worked...Newt convinced everyone that these were sham marriages for papers...if they were for papers why so many mixed status households now?
 
What does "burden of proof" have to do with anything? We are talking about immigration, not debating on a forum.

People who are for restricting immigration shift the burden of proof away from themselves, saying that governments have a basic right to restrict who can move into a country. I should probably address this in a future thread but if you want to use taxpayer money to stop people from crossing a line, the burden of proof is on you as to why that would be beneficial. The problem is that countries are collections of people and someone is bound to be against certain immigration restrictions. People who are against open borders often make the analogy with someone's property saying something along the lines of "would you let just anyone into your house?" but the problem with that comparison is that homes are owned by homeowners who have full ownership over their property. If someone wants to move into another home, they can just buy another home but when it comes to moving to a more desirable country, choices are pretty limited. Also, not very many people try to move into someone else's home to escape violent crime or seek a higher standard of living.
 
According to?

The folks say otherwise... Like 3x your claim

https://cis.org/Report/Impact-Immigration-California

CIS is full of s___. Why would you use a site that is known for twisting and changing information?

Here I will even use a conservative link for you

California has the largest number of illegal immigrants in the United States, with an estimated 2.4 million unauthorized immigrants making up about 6.3 percent of the state's total population, according to the Pew Research Center.
https://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/illegal-immigration-California/2015/09/14/id/691462/
 
Many conservatives and quite a few independents want the illegal immigrants rounded up and deported. The main argument is that the illegal immigrants should have come here legally but how easy is that?

Let's say that you're a Mexican who's yearning for the sweet American dream. Unlike some people, you decide to do it the legal way. So, what do you need to do?

To get into the US legally, you must apply for an immigrant visa. The full process can be found at this link:
https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...rate/the-immigrant-visa-process/petition.html

After all is said and done, you must register for the Diversity Visa Program after which, applicants will be allowed in based on a lottery. This lottery first prioritizes immediate relatives of immigrants who are already in the US. Part of the reason for this lottery is because the US has an immigration cap of 675,000 as of August 12, 2016.
https://www.us-immigration.com/us-i...ally-come-to-the-united-states/?r=blog-p27133
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works

It could take years for you to get into the US legally as a permanent resident. Is it really any wonder that some choose to forego the whole process and just cross the border? Or maybe just overstay a temporary visa?

Donald Trump once said that he has no problem with legal immigration. He should prove it by making reforms to the immigration process which make it faster. That way, it will be easier to discern true immigrants from gang members and human traffickers.

Many legal Mexican American citizens started off by coming across the border here in San Diego with their green cards to work and now many of them live here and are citizens.

My neighbor's wife a Filipino became a citizen within 5 years.

M-Bob
 
People who are for restricting immigration shift the burden of proof away from themselves, saying that governments have a basic right to restrict who can move into a country. I should probably address this in a future thread but if you want to use taxpayer money to stop people from crossing a line, the burden of proof is on you as to why that would be beneficial. The problem is that countries are collections of people and someone is bound to be against certain immigration restrictions. People who are against open borders often make the analogy with someone's property saying something along the lines of "would you let just anyone into your house?" but the problem with that comparison is that homes are owned by homeowners who have full ownership over their property. If someone wants to move into another home, they can just buy another home but when it comes to moving to a more desirable country, choices are pretty limited. Also, not very many people try to move into someone else's home to escape violent crime or seek a higher standard of living.

Hate to break it to you but...that is EXACTLY the governments job. The vast majority of people want them to regulate our borders. As such, it is their job. And it is the same in every single country in the world. There isn't a single one with open borders like you describe.
 
Hate to break it to you but...that is EXACTLY the governments job. The vast majority of people want them to regulate our borders. As such, it is their job. And it is the same in every single country in the world. There isn't a single one with open borders like you describe.

Our government has done a piss poor job of it.... they restrict who should be here and bring who shouldn't ...ie keeping out the guy we need to pick peaches and bringing the 9/11 terrorists...I will take the peach picker any day.
 
Our government has done a piss poor job of it.... they restrict who should be here and bring who shouldn't ...ie keeping out the guy we need to pick peaches and bringing the 9/11 terrorists...I will take the peach picker any day.

Can't argue with this. They have done a horrible job on multiple levels.
 
Many conservatives and quite a few independents want the illegal immigrants rounded up and deported. The main argument is that the illegal immigrants should have come here legally but how easy is that?

Let's say that you're a Mexican who's yearning for the sweet American dream. Unlike some people, you decide to do it the legal way. So, what do you need to do?

To get into the US legally, you must apply for an immigrant visa. The full process can be found at this link:
https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...rate/the-immigrant-visa-process/petition.html

After all is said and done, you must register for the Diversity Visa Program after which, applicants will be allowed in based on a lottery. This lottery first prioritizes immediate relatives of immigrants who are already in the US. Part of the reason for this lottery is because the US has an immigration cap of 675,000 as of August 12, 2016.
https://www.us-immigration.com/us-i...ally-come-to-the-united-states/?r=blog-p27133
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works

It could take years for you to get into the US legally as a permanent resident. Is it really any wonder that some choose to forego the whole process and just cross the border? Or maybe just overstay a temporary visa?

Donald Trump once said that he has no problem with legal immigration. He should prove it by making reforms to the immigration process which make it faster. That way, it will be easier to discern true immigrants from gang members and human traffickers.

We should be making money not losing money on border policies. Only lousy capitalists, do that. One thousand per foreign national who wants to tour our economy!
 
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