How and Why ‘Zero Tolerance’ Is Splitting Up Immigrant Families

X Factor · Jun 19, 2018

For those truly interested in the how and why, this article (from the New York Times, so hardly pro Trump) is reasonably balanced and does attempt to explain the laws involved. It’s definitely critical of zero tolerance but it also undercuts some of the hyperbole about concentration camps, etc.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/12/us/immigrants-family-separation.html

Xelor · Jun 19, 2018

All the Trump Admin./ICE officials need to do is not separate the kids from the parents/guardians who bring the kids with them to the border. Put them all in the same room and the problem is solved.

X Factor · Jun 19, 2018

Xelor said:
All the Trump Admin./ICE officials need to do is not separate the kids from the parents/guardians who bring the kids with them to the border. Put them all in the same room and the problem is solved.

This really is a bit like arguing that keeping kids in jail to be with their parents is a good plan.

Crystal · Jun 19, 2018

Xelor said:
All the Trump Admin./ICE officials need to do is not separate the kids from the parents/guardians who bring the kids with them to the border. Put them all in the same room and the problem is solved.

Is it? How do you know that kid isn’t with a human smuggler?

Xelor · Jun 19, 2018

From the article:

The “zero tolerance” policy is supposed to apply only to people who enter the country illegally. Presenting yourself at a port of entry and requesting asylum is not illegal. But these legal asylum seekers are generally taken into detention while their cases are processed, which can take months, and there are reports that those families are now being separated in the same way that illegal-entrant families are. Complicating the issue, many families that enter illegally request asylum once they are caught.

There are logistical obstacles to doing that. The nation has two centers where families can remain together while awaiting disposition of their cases, but their combined capacity is just 2,700 people; the detention system is swamped with thousands more cases than that.

Another option is to release parents and their children from detention with orders to return to court for their immigration hearings. That has often been the practice in the past, but President Trump has criticized “catch and release” and has said he would end its use.

"Catch and release" my ass. How much "catching" is there to taking into custody persons who presents themselves at a port of entry to request asylum? None. People who enter at a place other than a port of entry are an entirely different matter; they would be rightly classified as "caught."

Xelor · Jun 19, 2018

Crystal said:
Is it? How do you know that kid isn’t with a human smuggler?

I don't know, but I know damn well that a human smuggler isn't going to harm his/her "cargo," most especially not after having traipsed across a desert and being put in a facility with the child and given a clean bed, freshwater "three square," and perhaps fresh garments.

Xelor · Jun 19, 2018

X Factor said:
This really is a bit like arguing that keeping kids in jail to be with their parents is a good plan.

In a simplistic prima facie way, sure it looks that way. Considered in the extant context of the actual matter at hand, it's not all like "arguing that keeping kids in jail to be with their parents is a good plan."

ttwtt78640 · Jun 19, 2018

Xelor said:
All the Trump Admin./ICE officials need to do is not separate the kids from the parents/guardians who bring the kids with them to the border. Put them all in the same room and the problem is solved.

What rooms are available to hold many, many thousands for up to two years pending an asylum hearing?

There are logistical obstacles to doing that. The nation has two centers where families can remain together while awaiting disposition of their cases, but their combined capacity is just 2,700 people; the detention system is swamped with thousands more cases than that.

X Factor · Jun 19, 2018

Xelor said:
From the article:
The “zero tolerance” policy is supposed to apply only to people who enter the country illegally. Presenting yourself at a port of entry and requesting asylum is not illegal. But these legal asylum seekers are generally taken into detention while their cases are processed, which can take months, and there are reports that those families are now being separated in the same way that illegal-entrant families are. Complicating the issue, many families that enter illegally request asylum once they are caught.

There are logistical obstacles to doing that. The nation has two centers where families can remain together while awaiting disposition of their cases, but their combined capacity is just 2,700 people; the detention system is swamped with thousands more cases than that.

Another option is to release parents and their children from detention with orders to return to court for their immigration hearings. That has often been the practice in the past, but President Trump has criticized “catch and release” and has said he would end its use.

"Catch and release" my ass. How much "catching" is there to taking into custody persons who presents themselves at a port of entry to request asylum? None. People who enter at a place other than a port of entry are an entirely different matter; they would be rightly classified as "caught."

And that actually happens all the time, along with people claiming asylum only once they’ve been caught and just to keep from being deported.

Hawkeye10 · Jun 19, 2018

Xelor said:
All the Trump Admin./ICE officials need to do is not separate the kids from the parents/guardians who bring the kids with them to the border. Put them all in the same room and the problem is solved.

All is not all, because this quickly becomes unmanageable due to sexual assaults, which the courts would blame on the government, and demand that practices be changed to mitigate the the danger, which would likely end up being release the very thing that Trump is trying to avoid.

X Factor · Jun 19, 2018

Xelor said:
I don't know, but I know damn well that a human smuggler isn't going to harm his/her "cargo," most especially not after having traipsed across a desert and being put in a facility with the child and given a clean bed, freshwater "three square," and perhaps fresh garments.

Well, IMO rewarding human trafficking it isn’t actually a good idea.

X Factor · Jun 19, 2018

Hawkeye10 said:
All is not all, because this quickly becomes unmanageable due to sexual assaults, which the courts would blame on the government, and demand that practices be changed to mitigate the the danger, which would likely end up being release the very thing that Trump is trying to avoid.

Many of the laws in question are actually in place to protect children.

Xelor · Jun 19, 2018

ttwtt78640 said:
What rooms are available to hold many, many thousands for up to two years pending an asylum hearing?

I don't know. I haven't seen metrics pertaining to the number of rooms available.

At this juncture in the discussion, the immigrants could be held at "tent cities" a la Burning Man for all I care. They can be held in large communal rooms or in smaller individual or semi-individual rooms.

The people have traversed all sorts of conditions to get to the port of entry to request asylum. I'm reasonably sure that we're not going to let them starve or suffer exposure, and I'm sure they can "rough it" for a time.

All I'm saying is that whatever accommodation is given to asylum seekers, there's no justification for separating guardians/parents having that status from the kids who accompany them.

Hawkeye10 · Jun 19, 2018

X Factor said:
Many of the laws in question are actually in place to protect children.

I am not shocked of course but the level of fail of the so-called journalists on this matter is astronomical.

With as dim as Americans are and with as conditioned by Victim Culture as we are they will win with their manipulation (dishonesty) of the reporting.

X Factor · Jun 19, 2018

Hawkeye10 said:
I am not shocked of course but the level of fail of the so-called journalists on this matter is astronomical.

With as dim as Americans are and with as conditioned by Victim Culture as we are they will win with their manipulation (dishonesty) of the reporting.

I’m a little more optimistic. I really don’t believe most Americans excuse or support illegal immigration or find the parents blameless for the situation the kids are placed in.

ttwtt78640 · Jun 19, 2018

Xelor said:
I don't know. I haven't seen metrics pertaining to the number of rooms available.

At this juncture in the discussion, the immigrants could be held at "tent cities" a la Burning Man for all I care. They can be held in large communal rooms or in smaller individual or semi-individual rooms.

The people have traversed all sorts of conditions to get to the port of entry to request asylum. I'm reasonably sure that we're not going to let them starve or suffer exposure, and I'm sure they can "rough it" for a time.

All I'm saying is that whatever accommodation is given to asylum seekers, there's no justification for separating guardians/parents having that status from the kids who accompany them.

When the asylum 'family inns' are full (the current state of affairs) and thousands more are arriving monthly it poses quite a problem.

iliveonramen · Jun 19, 2018

Hawkeye10 said:
I am not shocked of course but the level of fail of the so-called journalists on this matter is astronomical.

With as dim as Americans are and with as conditioned by Victim Culture as we are they will win with their manipulation (dishonesty) of the reporting.

The adminstration has said from the get-go they were going to institute family separation as a deterrent. Some in the administration still say thats the reason its being done.

Americans would only be dim if they accepted the adminstrations new claims after the backlash of their unpopular policy.

Hawkeye10 · Jun 19, 2018

X Factor said:
I’m a little more optimistic. I really don’t believe most Americans excuse or support illegal immigration or find the parents blameless for the situation the kids are placed in.

"They are ripping babies from the arms of their mothers!" causes brains to go into a primordial scream "NOOOOO!!!!"

The so-called journalists driving their anti Trump anti Rebellion propaganda know this much.

Xelor · Jun 19, 2018

Hawkeye10 said:
All is not all, because this quickly becomes unmanageable due to sexual assaults, which the courts would blame on the government, and demand that practices be changed to mitigate the the danger, which would likely end up being release the very thing that Trump is trying to avoid.

The kids' parents willfully chose to risk "whatever" to get to the border so they could request asylum. They can risk "whatever" hazards are attendant to being housed with the kids who accompanied them to the border.

ICE personnel have an obligation to establish and maintain orderly conduct among the adults and children as they await asylum processing; however, faced with competing objectives and constraints such as...

holding applicants for some period of time prior to a decision on their application,
treating adults and children humanely while they await a decision,
physical space limitations, and
maintaining a safe housing environment...

...accommodations must be made.

ICE/the Trump Admin., the immigrants and the courts need to recognize that innovative solutions need to be implemented. One such solution: put the kids in the same "cages" in which the kids are being held. It's clear that the government has places for the kids and for the parents, but the kids are housed in spaces "A" and the parents in spaces "B." Is it impossible to put any given parent and child together in space "A" or space "B," thus resulting in parents and their children both being in "A" and "B" spaces? I would think not.

Is there an extant risk of kids being sexually assaulted by their parents? Well, yes, of course, there is; non-incarcerated parents have sexually assaulted their kids, so I suppose incarcerated ones may do too. I think that is a risk the parents/kids will, right now, have to bear and that the courts will have to deal with on an incremental basis.

X Factor · Jun 19, 2018

iliveonramen said:
The adminstration has said from the get-go they were going to institute family separation as a deterrent. Some in the administration still say thats the reason its being done.

Americans would only be dim if they accepted the adminstrations new claims after the backlash of their unpopular policy.

It’s mostly unpopular with those who don’t think immigration laws shouldn’t be enforced to begin with. Really, have you actually seen someone support enforcement generally but oppose this?

Xelor · Jun 19, 2018

ttwtt78640 said:
When the asylum 'family inns' are full (the current state of affairs) and thousands more are arriving monthly it poses quite a problem.

I'm not denying that the extant situation poses a problem. I am saying the problem is one that takes just a little bit of careful thought and action to solve. Because the problem is temporal in nature, I don't demand or expect a "fancy" solution, only one that is humane. The "tent city" idea I posited in the post to which you replied is one novel idea that would allow parents and kids to remain together yet in custody. Tents are cheap and abundant and there is plenty of open space in the U.S. where such a "tent city" can be erected.

iliveonramen · Jun 19, 2018

X Factor said:
It’s mostly unpopular with those who don’t think immigration laws shouldn’t be enforced to begin with. Really, have you actually seen someone support enforcement generally but oppose this?

The opposition to the policy isn't very complicated. It's a pretty broad backlash including evangelical groups that generally support Trump. Believe or not...people oppose the unneeded separation of parents from the children. It's that simple. The number of people on this board that don't get that pretty straightforward fact is mind boggling. Some want to claim it's not a Trump policy, despite Trump officials claiming they were instituting it as a deterrent. Some even claim that those against the family separation don't really care about those families but are just acting political.

I have news for those that believe either of the above, the Trump administration was very open about the reason for the policy, at least until the backlash and most people believe separating families when it's not needed is cruel.

The only people that seem to really stand by this policy are the Stephen Miller types both in the administration and on this board.

Edit: and by stand by the policy I mean un-equivocally. A lot of people on the right seem to be playing mental gymnastics trying to not deal with the fact the guy they support wants to separate families as a deterrent.

Gina · Jun 19, 2018

X Factor said:
It’s mostly unpopular with those who don’t think immigration laws shouldn’t be enforced to begin with. Really, have you actually seen someone support enforcement generally but oppose this?

It's unpopular with me because it's unnecessarily cruel, heartless and abusive to the children. Separating children from their parents like this is one of the most terrifying and harmful thing you can do to a child.

Dr. Colleen Kraft in an appearance on CNN described the many ways Trump’s policy emotionally harms children and laid out in detail what she witnessed when she toured an immigration detention center.

“I can’t describe to you the room I was in with the toddlers,” Kraft said. “Normally toddlers are rambunctious and running around. We had one child just screaming and crying, and the others were really silent. And this is not normal activity or brain development with these children.”

Kraft added that the emotional strain the children in these facilities are under produces a condition called “toxic stress” and that it inhibits the development of their brains.

“It disrupts their brain architecture and keeps them from developing language and social, emotional bonds, and gross motor skills, and the development that they could possibly have,” she said.

http://thehill.com/latino/392790-am...dent-trumps-family-separation-policy-is-child

In no way have I ever said immigration laws shouldn't be enforced or that our border shouldn't be secure. It can be done humanely though.

trblmkr · Jun 19, 2018

ttwtt78640 said:
What rooms are available to hold many, many thousands for up to two years pending an asylum hearing?

I don't know. What rooms are available to hold thousands of teens ? Rooms to hold in excess of 2,000 children of assorted ages and sexes? Do you know? Do you believe there was a plan in effect prior to the implementation of the zero tolerance policy? I do not and it obvious from the lack of resources, the Administration didn't have a plan.
Because I believe the goal is not to end separations or teen and child incarceration. It is to leverage legislation to fund a wall and to fund a massive private prison economy. Which it is already doing and will continue to do.

SDET · Jun 19, 2018

Crystal said:
Is it? How do you know that kid isn’t with a human smuggler?

Correct, some kids are even kidnapped to facilitate adult entry into the US.

How and Why ‘Zero Tolerance’ Is Splitting Up Immigrant Families

X Factor

Anti-Socialist

Xelor

X Factor

Anti-Socialist

Crystal

Xelor

Xelor

Xelor

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

X Factor

Anti-Socialist

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man

X Factor

Anti-Socialist

X Factor

Anti-Socialist

Xelor

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man

X Factor

Anti-Socialist

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

iliveonramen

Pontificator

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man

Xelor

X Factor

Anti-Socialist

Xelor

iliveonramen

Pontificator

Gina

trblmkr

SDET