• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

NPR article on Norway to US immigration: Hidden lessons

Fishking

Fishking

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 3, 2016
Messages
43,134
Reaction score
16,114
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
So I was looking into the status of immigration to the US from Norway, since this is all the rage right now. Apparently, Norwegian immigration to the US used to be very large.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...-immigrants-from-norway-turns-out-we-once-did

From 1870 to 1910 a quarter of Norway's working-age population emigrated, mostly to the United States. You read that right — one-fourth of its workers left the country.
Click to expand...

I mean, that's a lot. The article goes on to say some more interesting things.

Back then Norway was quite poor. Wages were less than a third of what they were in the United States. And the wave of emigration out of the country quickly benefited those who remained. That's because it reduced the supply of workers in Norway, so those left behind could demand higher wages. And this helped narrow Norway's wage gap with the U.S. by 25 percent over that same 40-year period, putting Norway on the path toward its status today as one of world's most prosperous nations.
Click to expand...

Ah...now isn't that interesting. The mass migration away from Norway resulted in a labor supply shortage, which meant that wages went up to compete for that scarcer labor pool, something I've been saying for a while. You also saw the same effect happen with much more tragic events, like the Black Plague, which reduced the labor force by about a 3rd. This enabled workers to demand more.

Well, golly, but we keep on hearing liberals talk about how immigration is an economic boon to an economy. But then you find the opposite in little factoid nuggets of information written and propagated to fit a certain anti-Trump narrative (I don't care about that actually). In doing that, they accidentally undermine their own narrative.

Fact is, we cannot expect wages to grow when there is virtually no end to the supply of labor. You will take your low wage and be thankful you have a job. My position on immigration has always been economic and the health of the US workforce. We should shut down almost all immigration, from all countries (yes, all of them) for a certain period of time until we've seen the pressures of the shortage of labor bring about increases in wages. Then we can start fiddling with it and see exactly where and how much the line is between where benefits end and wage suppression begins.

Thanks for your honest reporting NPR.
 
Fishking said:
So I was looking into the status of immigration to the US from Norway, since this is all the rage right now. Apparently, Norwegian immigration to the US used to be very large.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...-immigrants-from-norway-turns-out-we-once-did



I mean, that's a lot. The article goes on to say some more interesting things.



Ah...now isn't that interesting. The mass migration away from Norway resulted in a labor supply shortage, which meant that wages went up to compete for that scarcer labor pool, something I've been saying for a while. You also saw the same effect happen with much more tragic events, like the Black Plague, which reduced the labor force by about a 3rd. This enabled workers to demand more.

Well, golly, but we keep on hearing liberals talk about how immigration is an economic boon to an economy. But then you find the opposite in little factoid nuggets of information written and propagated to fit a certain anti-Trump narrative (I don't care about that actually). In doing that, they accidentally undermine their own narrative.

Fact is, we cannot expect wages to grow when there is virtually no end to the supply of labor. You will take your low wage and be thankful you have a job. My position on immigration has always been economic and the health of the US workforce. We should shut down almost all immigration, from all countries (yes, all of them) for a certain period of time until we've seen the pressures of the shortage of labor bring about increases in wages. Then we can start fiddling with it and see exactly where and how much the line is between where benefits end and wage suppression begins.

Thanks for your honest reporting NPR.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the economy that Trump wants.
 
Fishking said:
So I was looking into the status of immigration to the US from Norway, since this is all the rage right now. Apparently, Norwegian immigration to the US used to be very large.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...-immigrants-from-norway-turns-out-we-once-did



I mean, that's a lot. The article goes on to say some more interesting things.



Ah...now isn't that interesting. The mass migration away from Norway resulted in a labor supply shortage, which meant that wages went up to compete for that scarcer labor pool, something I've been saying for a while. You also saw the same effect happen with much more tragic events, like the Black Plague, which reduced the labor force by about a 3rd. This enabled workers to demand more.

Well, golly, but we keep on hearing liberals talk about how immigration is an economic boon to an economy. But then you find the opposite in little factoid nuggets of information written and propagated to fit a certain anti-Trump narrative (I don't care about that actually). In doing that, they accidentally undermine their own narrative.

Fact is, we cannot expect wages to grow when there is virtually no end to the supply of labor. You will take your low wage and be thankful you have a job. My position on immigration has always been economic and the health of the US workforce. We should shut down almost all immigration, from all countries (yes, all of them) for a certain period of time until we've seen the pressures of the shortage of labor bring about increases in wages. Then we can start fiddling with it and see exactly where and how much the line is between where benefits end and wage suppression begins.

Thanks for your honest reporting NPR.
Click to expand...

Are you trying to tell me that the benefits to Norway's economy mean that the American economy could not have benefited at the same time? That's nonsense.
 
bearpoker said:
Are you trying to tell me that the benefits to Norway's economy mean that the American economy could not have benefited at the same time? That's nonsense.
Click to expand...


Make sure to read the whole article. The last six paragraphs are interesting and may not mesh with the OPs intent!?
 
rocket88 said:
That's exactly the economy that Trump wants.
Click to expand...

Well...I'm not sure what you're referring to since everything I've seen from the current admin has been anti-immigration while those against him are pro-immigration. Either way, the fact still remains that you cannot expect wages to increase when there is a virtually endless supply of labor.

Cut off all immigration, to include H1B visas, and make companies fight for a shrinking labor pool.
 
bearpoker said:
Are you trying to tell me that the benefits to Norway's economy mean that the American economy could not have benefited at the same time? That's nonsense.
Click to expand...

What I'm saying was place in bold from the article. Try and keep up and make a valid point, instead of trying to create a smoke screen.
 
Fishking said:
So I was looking into the status of immigration to the US from Norway, since this is all the rage right now. Apparently, Norwegian immigration to the US used to be very large.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...-immigrants-from-norway-turns-out-we-once-did



I mean, that's a lot. The article goes on to say some more interesting things.



Ah...now isn't that interesting. The mass migration away from Norway resulted in a labor supply shortage, which meant that wages went up to compete for that scarcer labor pool, something I've been saying for a while. You also saw the same effect happen with much more tragic events, like the Black Plague, which reduced the labor force by about a 3rd. This enabled workers to demand more.

Well, golly, but we keep on hearing liberals talk about how immigration is an economic boon to an economy. But then you find the opposite in little factoid nuggets of information written and propagated to fit a certain anti-Trump narrative (I don't care about that actually). In doing that, they accidentally undermine their own narrative.

Fact is, we cannot expect wages to grow when there is virtually no end to the supply of labor. You will take your low wage and be thankful you have a job. My position on immigration has always been economic and the health of the US workforce. We should shut down almost all immigration, from all countries (yes, all of them) for a certain period of time until we've seen the pressures of the shortage of labor bring about increases in wages. Then we can start fiddling with it and see exactly where and how much the line is between where benefits end and wage suppression begins.

Thanks for your honest reporting NPR.
Click to expand...

That "cause and effect" from a period ending over a century ago would not translate to 2018 very well. The cost of labor can only rise so much before the "jobs" will go where labor is cheaper. Technology has changed everything.
 
Fishking said:
What I'm saying was place in bold from the article. Try and keep up and make a valid point, instead of trying to create a smoke screen.
Click to expand...

If you don't think that economic benefits to Norway mean that there were no benefits to America, why did you post the article at all. You could have made your point about the labor supply without using the article at all.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
That "cause and effect" from a period ending over a century ago would not translate to 2018 very well. The cost of labor can only rise so much before the "jobs" will go where labor is cheaper. Technology has changed everything.
Click to expand...

Only certain things can be sent away and enacting measures that prohibit or limit such actions would have to go along with the reduction in immigration. The longer we wait the less chance there is of being able to effect the changes needed, as the world develops and other avenues of global consumerism expands. We still have the "bully-pulpit" for the global economy due to how much the world depends on us consuming their goods.

But, yes, globalism does make it harder but, as we see with Norway, the effects can carry on.
 
bearpoker said:
If you don't think that economic benefits to Norway mean that there were no benefits to America, why did you post the article at all. You could have made your point about the labor supply without using the article at all.
Click to expand...

Oh...there were definitely benefits to certain segments of America. I see what the problem is, I'm talking about American workers and our wage, not corporate profits that are disproportionately benefiting a smaller segment of society.
 
Fishking said:
Oh...there were definitely benefits to certain segments of America. I see what the problem is, I'm talking about American workers and our wage, not corporate profits that are disproportionately benefiting a smaller segment of society.
Click to expand...

Who gets the benefits of a growing economy is a different issue. America in the 19th century was a young, expanding economy that needed more workers.
 
Fishking said:
Only certain things can be sent away and enacting measures that prohibit or limit such actions would have to go along with the reduction in immigration. The longer we wait the less chance there is of being able to effect the changes needed, as the world develops and other avenues of global consumerism expands. We still have the "bully-pulpit" for the global economy due to how much the world depends on us consuming their goods.

But, yes, globalism does make it harder but, as we see with Norway, the effects can carry on.
Click to expand...

I'm not a globalist. I would like to see corporate globalism reigned in much more than it is now. However, when it comes to protectionism, there's a point beyond which the positive effects are overtaken by negatives.

While I'm all for stopping illegal immigration and limiting the use of certain types of visas that are used to drive down wages in some sectors, if you take that too far, at some point you'll drive up prices and blunt whatever gains the middle and lower class originally got from the policies. And that's assuming we have policies that keep the corporations from leaving - which would be another anti-free market policy set.

I'm just saying tread carefully here - Trump's absolutist babbling on this topic is mostly nonsense.

JMHO.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
I'm not a globalist. I would like to see corporate globalism reigned in much more than it is now. However, when it comes to protectionism, there's a point beyond which the positive effects are overtaken by negatives.

While I'm all for stopping illegal immigration and limiting the use of certain types of visas that are used to drive down wages in some sectors, if you take that too far, at some point you'll drive up prices and blunt whatever gains the middle and lower class originally got from the policies. And that's assuming we have policies that keep the corporations from leaving - which would be another anti-free market policy set.

I'm just saying tread carefully here - Trump's absolutist babbling on this topic is mostly nonsense.

JMHO.
Click to expand...

Well, this isn't about Trump but what was accidentally admitted in the NPR article. I'm less worried about protectionist policies against countries that have close to similar standards that the US has but those countries in which they use cheap labor, have low standards with regard to environment, workers' safety, quality of product, stealing patent and products, ect, ect, ect...all of which China does on a systemic level, I'm good with putting at least a few speed bumps in the way to at least give pause to using them to make everything. China's GDP growth rate is almost 7% because they are exploiting our weaknesses.
 
bearpoker said:
Who gets the benefits of a growing economy is a different issue. America in the 19th century was a young, expanding economy that needed more workers.
Click to expand...

You're quite right...you brought up a different issue, by bringing up benefits that didn't relate to the specific thing I was talking about, which is wages, labor pools, and how they relate.
 
There are two problems that I see when forming a solid opinion about this topic. The first is that in a global economy workers have far less leverage when it comes to demanding increases in wages. The second is that saying the labor shortage in the mid to late 19th century led to wage gap closure, because it gave workers the ability to demand higher wages, is incredibly simplistic and I don't think it tells even half of the story. During this time period we see an acceleration in industry, a rapid growth of union power, and government stimulation in Norway's economy.
 
Fishking said:
Well, this isn't about Trump but what was accidentally admitted in the NPR article. I'm less worried about protectionist policies against countries that have close to similar standards that the US has but those countries in which they use cheap labor, have low standards with regard to environment, workers' safety, quality of product, stealing patent and products, ect, ect, ect...all of which China does on a systemic level, I'm good with putting at least a few speed bumps in the way to at least give pause to using them to make everything. China's GDP growth rate is almost 7% because they are exploiting our weaknesses.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

I only mentioned Trump because he pretty much ran for POTUS on aspects of this topic. His "base" definitely has ideas with regard to the subject.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
Agreed.

I only mentioned Trump because he pretty much ran for POTUS on aspects of this topic. His "base" definitely has ideas with regard to the subject.
Click to expand...

Yes, and he made some valid points. I'm not sure about the specifics w/regard to his policies, because he didn't get a bunch of specifics to what/how he would go about fixing the issue, but the issue was correctly identified and he won the "Rust Belt" due to that.

As for how it relates to immigration, I don't recall him talking about immigration reforms very much w/regard to economics (he has said some things about H1Bs). Most of his talks about immigration has been because of things like terrorism, and importing cultures/ideologies that are antithetical to western American values.

My biggest issue with immigration is based on economics.
 
Fishking said:
Well...I'm not sure what you're referring to since everything I've seen from the current admin has been anti-immigration while those against him are pro-immigration. Either way, the fact still remains that you cannot expect wages to increase when there is a virtually endless supply of labor.

Cut off all immigration, to include H1B visas, and make companies fight for a shrinking labor pool.
Click to expand...

Trump and his people believe that lower wages are good for America. Cutting off all immigration will drive the price of a hamburger up faster than a $15 minimum wage. It also goes against what the values of the country are.
 
rocket88 said:
Trump and his people believe that lower wages are good for America.
Click to expand...

Cool story, bro. You have a quote or something or is this just some more made up throw-away comment? If this is the best you have, I'm afraid you aren't worth giving any legitimate responses to and I'll just crap all over your posts.
 
Fishking said:
Cool story, bro. You have a quote or something or is this just some more made up throw-away comment? If this is the best you have, I'm afraid you aren't worth giving any legitimate responses to and I'll just crap all over your posts.
Click to expand...

Well everything you post is already crap, so I can't see where it would make a difference. Trump made a fortune off of under paying people - when he paid them at all. Suddenly he wants to change it? He had a miraculous conversion? Get real.
 
rocket88 said:
Well everything you post is already crap, so I can't see where it would make a difference.
Click to expand...

I see...an, "I know you are but what am I?" response. Nice. If that's the best you have, this isn't going to work out the way you think it is.

Trump made a fortune off of under paying people - when he paid them at all. Suddenly he wants to change it? He had a miraculous conversion? Get real.
Click to expand...

His personal conduct doesn't translate into much of anything. A druggy can know the best ways to limit access to drug.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom