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'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia[W:258]

Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

And Immigration Court is a civil forum.
Administrative (Immigration) Court is merely civil in nature, the defendant isn't being charged with a crime, simply charged with an administrative infraction, i.e. overstaying their visa or violating the terms of their visa (much like traffic court and a traffic infraction), meaning the defendant doesn't get a court appointed attorney or a jury of his peers. It is not a "civil forum".
 
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Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Administrative (Immigration) Court is merely civil in nature, the defendant isn't being charged with a crime, simply charged with an administrative infraction (much like traffic court and a traffic infraction), meaning the defendant doesn't get a court appointed attorney or a jury of his peers. It is not a "civil forum".

You are freaking hilarious.

When Attorney General Michael Mukasey denied foreigners taxpayer paid attorneys for Title 8 violations, he said that deportation (the punishment for a Title 8 Improper Entry) was not a crime. Are you going to waste your whole freaking life arguing over semantics?

I only have one interest in you and it doesn't have anything to do with immigration. I tend to think most people can see the now TWENTY responses aimed at me by you are not about immigration. You're wrong and anybody that accesses my links can see that.

At the end of the day, insofar as immigration is concerned, it is wholly irrelevant to that crowd. IF, however, they understand the traffic ticket scenario (whereby it is civil violations) then they MIGHT understand how these precedents of treating civil violations as crimes may be bad news for them later on down the road.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

You are freaking hilarious.

When Attorney General Michael Mukasey denied foreigners taxpayer paid attorneys for Title 8 violations, he said that deportation (the punishment for a Title 8 Improper Entry) was not a crime. Are you going to waste your whole freaking life arguing over semantics?

I only have one interest in you and it doesn't have anything to do with immigration. I tend to think most people can see the now TWENTY responses aimed at me by you are not about immigration. You're wrong and anybody that accesses my links can see that.

At the end of the day, insofar as immigration is concerned, it is wholly irrelevant to that crowd. IF, however, they understand the traffic ticket scenario (whereby it is civil violations) then they MIGHT understand how these precedents of treating civil violations as crimes may be bad news for them later on down the road.
Deportation is not a crime, nobody has said it was. The punishment for 8USC1325 violations can be as little as 6 months in jail. Mukasey never denied tax payer attorneys for 8USC1325 charges, since they are charged in Federal District Courts under criminal law.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Deportation is not a crime, nobody has said it was. The punishment for 8USC1325 can be as much as 2 years in jail. Mukasey never denied tax payer attorneys for 8USC1325 charges, since they are charged in Federal District Courts under criminal law.


No sir. They are charged in a civil arena.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDo-ZVK4dc0

Notice that Glenn Beck tried to play semantics - just as you. He said if some one is caught, shipped back and returns... that is wholly different. You should accept the fact that Rudy knows more than you on the subject since he prosecuted the violations which he states are civil.

Your responses are silly. If the HEAD of the Dept. of Homeland (IN) Security says that "crossing the border is not a crime", you might do well to just accept it.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

No sir. They are charged in a civil arena.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDo-ZVK4dc0

Notice that Glenn Beck tried to play semantics - just as you. He said if some one is caught, shipped back and returns... that is wholly different. You should accept the fact that Rudy knows more than you on the subject since he prosecuted the violations which he states are civil.

Your responses are silly. If the HEAD of the Dept. of Homeland (IN) Security says that "crossing the border is not a crime", you might do well to just accept it.
Nobody played semantics, Beck didn't ask anything about Improper Entry, he simply asked about illegal immigrants to which Rudy responded with talking points, being an illegal immigrant isn't a crime (something nobody has claimed that it is). Rudy stated removal proceedings are a civil matter, which is partially correct, since Immigration Court (for legal entrants) is civil in nature, and simple removal for Improper Entrants is done through DHS with no court hearing required.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Nobody played semantics, Beck didn't ask anything about Improper Entry, he simply asked about illegal immigrants to which Rudy responded with talking points, being an illegal immigrant isn't a crime (something nobody has claimed that it is). Rudy stated removal proceedings are a civil matter, which is partially correct, since Immigration Court (for legal entrants) is civil in nature, and simple removal for Improper Entrants is done through DHS with no court hearing required.

Still doing your double talk song and dance? What you just said is meaningless and irrelevant. Rudy answered the question and Beck was trying to get a crime out of a civil offense.

You've wasted too much of your life on this. You've derailed too many threads. The anti-immigrants think you are on their side. You aren't. It is easier and cheaper to remove undocumented foreigners via the civil process. For you this is a personal war that does not belong on a discussion board. It belongs in a face to face meeting with me so that whatever you want; whatever you have to say can be done in person so that you can get over this.

I honestly don't think that the government is going to pay you anything to make me look bad on discussion boards. In the decades of recruiting people for various activist causes, I've never recruited a single soul over the Internet. In the - how many years you've been pursuing me since failing to set me up for Uncle Scam - I haven't recruited anyone for anything off a discussion board AND, to make matters worse, NOBODY from either side has ever met with me to look at the hard cold facts to find out what is real and what is B.S. on the Internet. Hell, you've been offered free expense paid trips just to speak with the right people and look at the documentation, first hand.

You've been most conspicuous by your absence. You're not B.S.ing me. Either the government is still paying you to be a Confidential Informant or you have a serious emotional disorder. Either way NOTHING NEW is being discussed on this thread. Those who care will access the links and study the issue for themselves.

At the end of the day, it is illegal for people to be in the United States without papers. While the statute itself is badly worded, the court cases and the policies of the Dept. of Homeland (IN) Security are the final word. I've told you who issued statements to U.S. Attorneys, immigration attorneys and other people that work in immigration law along with the media. IF that were the issue, your beef is not with me, but with those who the United States Supreme Court ruled have that responsibility.

There is nothing left to discuss. Either people will accept what the Dept. of Homeland (IN) Security says OR they will not. And a lot of people understand the realities of life. The system itself breaks the law. You know that. How many times have you attempted to set me up only to find out that the government could not make a case - and how many were defended by me simply stating that there was no jurisdiction and / or failure to state a cause upon which relief may be granted?

You're presuming people are stupid. I think most will look at your now approaching 30 back and forth exchanges only to find nothing new. You've tried to discredit what I've said and even after 30 separate posts covering the same ground, YOU aren't convinced - which is why you keep trying to repackage the same post over and over.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

HOW TO HANDLE THE IMMIGRATION DEBACLE II - Continuation

We can end the immigration debacle without the pee test, blood test, hair sample, MVR check, credit check, criminal background check, firearms license, occupation license, driver's license (National ID / REAL ID Act Card / E Verify), proof of insurance, access to social media accounts, 24 / 7 / 365 womb to the tomb surveillance, drones in the sky, etc., etc. We can do handle immigration woes without walls and especially without forced citizenship.

I would:

1) Get rid of the quota system for letting people in. If the states want to allow them in as guest workers, then we should continue to issue an Individual Tax Identification Number (as 75 percent of all undocumented people have) and move forward

2) Reduce legal immigration - Naturalization / citizenship by half

3) INCENTIVIZE employers to hire American workers with:

A) Tax breaks to hire an all American staff
B) Additional tax breaks for taking people off unemployment, welfare and providing jobs to the handicapped
C) Pay at least 15 percent over minimum wage as a starting wage
D) Tax breaks to bring jobs back to America

An employer who can utilize all the above can cut their tax burden by half

2) END THE WELFARE STATE

A) EVERY state has a state employment service. In my home state I've never known of anyone to get a job through these people. I've never known of a business to be solicited by them. Why? Each local office ought to know ALL the employers, their needs, and they should help place workers. Those state employment workers should have to place a minimum number of workers in order to qualify for raises and promotions. If you passed the laws in # 3 they could inform employers about how to drastically cut their tax burden

B) When people receive welfare, they should have to register with the state and look for a job. If they need training or so forth, it should be provided (be it a GED class, vocational training, etc.)

C) Those who work in welfare offices ought to have to get a minimum number of people off welfare in order to qualify for raises / promotions

D) States and local governments need to ease off restrictions and allow churches to use their facilities to help the poor, homeless and down trodden. Today, churches cannot effectively help the poor. Can't let people spend the night in the church, can't let them take a shower there, etc.

3) SERIOUS prison reform (deserves a post all of its own)

4) The alternative to the wall - I could double the manpower the Border Patrol has at no cost to the United States. It would actually generate revenue.


This is the best solution.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Moderator's Warning:
The personal comments and baiting need to stop.

Stick to the topic.

Moderation is still possible on posts made before this warning. Do not quote and respond to anything which violates this warning.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

I don't know what the benefit of arguing this would be. It is is utter simplicity. When the feds expected the states to enforce federal gun control, local law enforcement went to court stating that they were not required to enforce federal statutory laws. They are not prohibited from holding federal fugitives; they simply cannot be compelled to do so.

The United States Supreme Court ruled:

"The Framers rejected the concept of a central government that would act upon and through the States, and instead designed a system in which the State and Federal Governments would exercise concurrent authority over the people. The Federal Government's power would be augmented immeasurably and impermissibly if it were able to impress into its service-and at no cost to itself-the police officers of the 50 States..." Printz v United States 521 US 898 (1997)

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/521/898/

In sanctuary cities, unless there is a crime by which a foreigner is actually wanted, San Francisco refuses to do round-ups and / or hold people in custody for the civil offense of being here without papers. If, in the scenario you are pushing, a foreigner is wanted for an actual crime AND, while under the protection of the local constabularies in San Francisco, the foreigner kills an American, that American's family would have a cause of action against the government. IF this were happening, a couple of multi million dollar lawsuits would be enough to convince those in San Francisco that they should have turned those people over.

The real deal is - and you and I both know it - the people who obsess over immigration will stop at nothing less than the ultimate POLICE STATE. Even if a foreigner is here with an outstanding warrant, they must be identified and / or stopped subject to the required probable cause. Even then, being in the United States without papers is not a crime and not something we want to waste resources pursuing.

People like myself do not want a police state, we just want a state that would actually care about their own people, and not pay lip service to some pathetic liberal idea about so called Dreamer's coming in to live a happy life. Even immigrants who have waited upwards of 10 years to come into this country legally, think that being here illegally is a grievous offense to everything they strove to achieve. Its not the point of a police state, its the point of keeping you're own civilian population safe from individuals who pose an actual risk. If he/she is illegal, but possesses no criminal record or is found out under an event that did not cause them to have one. Then by all means give them a standardized citizen test, so he/she at least has a chance.

But if they are caught in the midst of a crime, or having committed a crime, and their immigration status is in question. They have to go, plane and simple.

Also-
when you cite a supreme court ruling, I understand what you are trying to get through in that message, and it does have precedence. But you and I both know that there have been multiple times in history, where knowledge of a supreme court ruling have meant squat. When levied against the decision of a judge or even a jury.

Hell, our legal system is nearly in shambles as it is.
Not to mention welfare is in the same mess, our school system is broken, and compounding the whole immigration reform issue is just more trash then anyone on here would care to dig through. Be them dem/rep/ind.. etc.

My main worry for this whole issue, is when they release said individual even when they were asked by ICE to hold onto him for processing and deportation. Then that person runs off to commit an even worse crime, possibly taking the life of more than one innocent civilian.

It is already the fault of a flawed system that failed to keep them out, but is it not also the fault of the people that refused to help get that person out of the country as well?
 
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Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

People like myself do not want a police state, we just want a state that would actually care about their own people, and not pay lip service to some pathetic liberal idea about so called Dreamer's coming in to live a happy life. Even immigrants who have waited upwards of 10 years to come into this country legally, think that being here illegally is a grievous offense to everything they strove to achieve. Its not the point of a police state, its the point of keeping you're own civilian population safe from individuals who pose an actual risk. If he/she is illegal, but possesses no criminal record or is found out under an event that did not cause them to have one. Then by all means give them a standardized citizen test, so he/she at least has a chance.

But if they are caught in the midst of a crime, or having committed a crime, and their immigration status is in question. They have to go, plane and simple.

Also-
when you cite a supreme court ruling, I understand what you are trying to get through in that message, and it does have precedence. But you and I both know that there have been multiple times in history, where knowledge of a supreme court ruling have meant squat. When levied against the decision of a judge or even a jury.

Hell, our legal system is nearly in shambles as it is.
Not to mention welfare is in the same mess, our school system is broken, and compounding the whole immigration reform issue is just more trash then anyone on here would care to dig through. Be them dem/rep/ind.. etc.

My main worry for this whole issue, is when they release said individual even when they were asked by ICE to hold onto him for processing and deportation. Then that person runs off to commit an even worse crime, possibly taking the life of more than one innocent civilian.

It is already the fault of a flawed system that failed to keep them out, but is it not also the fault of the people that refused to help get that person out of the country as well?
First and foremost, you have to understand something:

Regardless of what you think about me OR what some may say about me, my first default is my stance: I will not do anything that increases the size, power, and / or scope of government. Period. The government is not going to do anything that will benefit the citizenry (especially the posterity of the founding fathers) without charging a price, in terms of both dollars and lost Liberties, far greater than the promised benefit.

Those who have taken up the religion of immigration have played into the hands of the left. In every instance, the purveyors of the NEW WORLD ORDER / ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT have played the people who obsess over this issue. One example is the incessant B.S. over whether or not we are dealing with a crime or a civil issue. It's a civil issue and people here without papers are not criminals.

It is far easier to get rid of people in the U.S. without papers via the civil process. AND, with the right Attorney General, the taxpayers don't have to pay for the foreigners attorney. The next thing is that the issue is more about National Security rather than criminal acts. The proper remedy is, and always has been, to require Congress to declare a war if you really think we're being "invaded."

Those are but a few; however, the bottom line - NO B.S. deal is that I know what it's like, up close and personal, to be accused of a crime without the benefit of due process. I know what it's like to be there with your life on the line and I'll be damned if I let it ever happen to anyone else in this country without a fight - even if I'm defending my mortal enemy.

At a philosophical level, the government is under no duty to keep foreigners out. We should be a free market nation. I've given that example of how I had the Right to exercise my Liberties and go to a town in Tennessee. As an outsider, I was greeted by THEIR Rights... like the Right NOT to offer me a job. And I remain convinced, if employers had the Right (as they do if we are governed by a government consistent with the Constitution) they would hire from within their community. Yeah, in some places the blacks would not get a job and the gays might get turned down here and there. Women, to some degree might feel the heat... BUT, there will always be places that WILL give them a job.

We can't use that whole process of locking out our own via the pee test, blood test, hair sample, MVR check, credit check, criminal background check, firearms license, occupation license, driver's license (National ID / REAL ID Act Card / E Verify), proof of insurance, access to social media accounts, 24 / 7 / 365 womb to the tomb surveillance, drones in the sky, etc., etc. and then complain about people hiring foreign labor. We have to create incentives for the employers to hire Americans. Put America to work and you've solved your problem.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

What's immoral about deporting a person here without authorization? They had the ability to enter or stay legally, they failed. What makes you believe they then have a right to be here?

When people are contributing to society forcing deportation on them for not filling out the proper form, disrupting their lives and their family... is immoral.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

When people are contributing to society forcing deportation on them for not filling out the proper form, disrupting their lives and their family... is immoral.
An Improper Entry Illegal/low skilled immigrant is not contributing to society, he is contributing to his own personal gain and that of his employer.

Families are disrupted all the time, what happens to the children when their parent gets jailed?, at least a deported parent(s) can take their children with them. There is nothing immoral about it.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

An Improper Entry Illegal/low skilled immigrant is not contributing to society, he is contributing to his own personal gain and that of his employer.

Families are disrupted all the time, what happens to the children when their parent gets jailed?, at least a deported parent(s) can take their children with them. There is nothing immoral about it.

That is one way to look at it even if it is not accurate...
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

That is one way to look at it even if it is not accurate...

What's not accurate about it?

Every economist out there will tell you low skilled immigration doesn't benefit society.

Parents can take their children with them when deported, yet a parent going to jail actually lose their children to other family members or to the state.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

What's not accurate about it?

Every economist out there will tell you low skilled immigration doesn't benefit society.

Parents can take their children with them when deported, yet a parent going to jail actually lose their children to other family members or to the state.

The Advantages of Minimum Wage | Chron.com
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Nothing in that link disproves anything I stated. :SHRUG:

Even Paul Krugman admits low skilled immigrants cost us money, which even your link seems to back up
Basic decency requires that we provide immigrants, once they're here, with essential health care, education for their children, and more. As the Swiss writer Max Frisch wrote about his own country's experience with immigration, ''We wanted a labor force, but human beings came.'' Unfortunately, low-skill immigrants don't pay enough taxes to cover the cost of the benefits they receive.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990DEFDC1430F934A15750C0A9609C8B63
 
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Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

And nothing you said disproves that it is immoral to deport immigrants... :shrug:
You haven't show it to be immoral to deport them, you claiming it is doesn't do much. :SHRUG:
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

You haven't show it to be immoral to deport them, you claiming it is doesn't do much. :SHRUG:

Breaking up families is pretty much considered universally immoral... :lol:

Nice try though...
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Breaking up families is pretty much considered universally immoral... :lol:

Nice try though...
Then why throw the parent in jail if they commit a crime? SMFH

Deportation doesn't break up families, the parent(s) can take their children with them, it's the parent(s) choice to leave them behind. Your rhetoric is just that, rhetoric. :SHRUG:
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Then why through the parent in jail if they commit a crime? SMFH

Deportation doesn't break up families, the parent(s) can take their children with them. Your rhetoric is just that, rhetoric. :SHRUG:

Right, because family is just a mom, dad and two kids.

Anyway... nice try. Anything better or are we done here?
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Right, because family is just a mom, dad and two kids.

Anyway... nice try. Anything better or are we done here?
Yep. :YAWN:
 
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