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Obama had a Muslim Ban of his own

ajn678 said:
So you'd rather we wait for our citizens to die, than limit our risks prior to a terrorist attack? Just so we can both understand where you are coming from. You want to put your own brothers and sisters in harm's way so that we can bring in people that are not Americans, and have no rights in America, because they made bad decisions in their leaders and their cultural choices have led to the destruction of their countries? That's what you want?
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Lol of course they do. Nothing saying " caring" like a liberal. They care so much they would have a us citizens life placed behind that of a refugee. They care so much about children that they fight for the right to kill the most innocent, they care so much they want you to have no choice on were you send your kids to school. They care so much they steal money from one group to give to another in the name of them being poor, needing health care, housing, cell phone, food stamps, etc etc. They care so much they place the worship of mother earth ( climate change etc) above all else. They care so much about feelings that the force your daughter, wife, to have to put up with a chick with a dick in their bathroom, locker room etc. They care so much they " tolerate " all unless you disagree with them. We could go on and on about the " caring" left....

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Bodhisattva said:
I don't agree with stopping the ones with Visa's and all that. Trump is breaking the law, IMO.

I am talking about the over all ban on people from a certain area and a particular religion.

In that they are analogous. 100%.
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Right. So if Trump hadn't have done what he did, you'd have a point. But he did much more than just "temporary ban on certain areas". Therefor they aren't analogous.
 
MrPeanut said:
I think that the fear of refugees is at a level that is disproportional to the reality of the threat that some of them may pose to Americans. I support keeping American lives safe. I stated earlier that if this temporary ban was in response to discovering terrorists in America, that came from these countries, I wouldn't make a huge deal about it. I have always held the view that one of America's greatest strengths is its ability to provide a safe haven for immigrants or refugees. The lack of care about non-American life is not something I support. I find it pretty disgusting that it regularly comes from the side of the isle that consistently claims the moral high ground on issues.
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so where was the lefts faux outrage when Obama did the same thing?

My policy is similar to what President Obama did in 2011 when he banned visas for refugees from Iraq for six months. The seven countries named in the Executive Order are the same countries previously identified by the Obama administration as sources of terror. To be clear, this is not a Muslim ban, as the media is falsely reporting. This is not about religion – this is about terror and keeping our country safe. There are over 40 different countries worldwide that are majority Muslim that are not affected by this order. We will again be issuing visas to all countries once we are sure we have reviewed and implemented the most secure policies over the next 90 days.
 
ludin said:
the problem is the vetting process. it isn't good enough.

The government jobs and the presidents job is to protect America from enemies both out and in.
not fully vetting the people coming in is a direct violation of that.

this is a huge failure on Obama's part for opening the flood gates to begin with.
what are they going to contribute? most of these people have little skill or professional training.

look at the havoc they are causing all over Europe.
why would you want to bring that here?
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Studies show that non-Americans consistently outperform us academically. They contribute a lot to society. I go to the doctor a lot. Like, everybody else in this thread combined a lot. The number of Somalian and other immigrant groups who are doctors, nurses and lab techs is astounding. I don't know what havoc in Europe you're talking about, but we've been bringing refugees to this country for a very long time and America is - in my opinion - the greatest country in the world. I don't accept that suddenly, refugees are a threat to our society. I don't see that and I very much doubt you've seen it.

ajn678 said:
Its not a question of what if we get attacked by a refugee, its when.
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I'm shaking in my boots. I'd rather our country be free and take the .000006% chance of being killed by a refugee than support actions that are so far removed from the ideals of our founders.
 
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Mustachio said:
Studies show that non-Americans consistently outperform us academically. They contribute a lot to society. I go to the doctor a lot. Like, everybody else in this thread combined a lot. The number of Somalian and other immigrant groups who are doctors, nurses and lab techs is astounding. I don't know what havoc in Europe you're talking about, but we've been bringing refugees to this country for a very long time and America is - in my opinion - the greatest country in the world. I don't accept that suddenly, refugees are a threat to our society. I don't see that and I very much doubt you've seen it.
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I never said anything that you have argued and your strawman goes blowing down the street.
these people are not doctors etc ...
 
roughdraft274 said:
Right. So if Trump hadn't have done what he did, you'd have a point. But he did much more than just "temporary ban on certain areas". Therefor they aren't analogous.
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What I am comparing is analogous so that makes what I am comparing analogous... A ban from certain areas and of certain people. BOOM!
 
Mustachio said:
Studies show that non-Americans consistently outperform us academically. They contribute a lot to society. I go to the doctor a lot. Like, everybody else in this thread combined a lot. The number of Somalian and other immigrant groups who are doctors, nurses and lab techs is astounding. I don't know what havoc in Europe you're talking about, but we've been bringing refugees to this country for a very long time and America is - in my opinion - the greatest country in the world. I don't accept that suddenly, refugees are a threat to our society. I don't see that and I very much doubt you've seen it.



I'm shaking in my boots. I'd rather our country be free and take the .000006% chance of being killed by a refugee than support actions that are so far removed from the ideals of our founders.
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Non-Americans do not out perform Americans academically... that is absurd, specifically when comparing middle and upper classes.
 
ludin said:
so where was the lefts faux outrage when Obama did the same thing?

My policy is similar to what President Obama did in 2011 when he banned visas for refugees from Iraq for six months. The seven countries named in the Executive Order are the same countries previously identified by the Obama administration as sources of terror. To be clear, this is not a Muslim ban, as the media is falsely reporting. This is not about religion – this is about terror and keeping our country safe. There are over 40 different countries worldwide that are majority Muslim that are not affected by this order. We will again be issuing visas to all countries once we are sure we have reviewed and implemented the most secure policies over the next 90 days.
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I've got two things to respond with. The first is that you obviously haven't read a lot of this thread because I mentioned how I am not automatically against temporary bans that are in response to a specific incident. Obama's temporary ban was triggered by the arrests of two Iraqi men in KY. The second thing is that it is most definitely intended to be a Muslim ban. At least, it was originally. Giuliani spilled the beans in an interview recently. The Muslim ban question starts at 3 minutes, but before that there is a Trump love fest if you want to to watch it.
Giuliani Muslim Ban

The video shows how Rudy came up with an idea to make it legal to ban Muslims by targeting them in a different way.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Non-Americans do not out perform Americans academically... that is absurd, specifically when comparing middle and upper classes.
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You're partially correct. I was basing my statement on studies that show that the US is falling behind other major countries academically, but it wasn't a study about how they performed within the United States. Here, economic disparity and performance in the classroom continues to be pretty closely associated. But I'm not sure if I'm right on not, as this study shows.

A new paper (pdf) from University of Chicago PhD candidate Alison Rauh finds that black immigrants tend to be more successful than black Americans. They out-earn black natives (after accounting for age) and are more likely to be employed. This is not surprising; white immigrant groups outperform their native cohort too. But what’s most intriguing is how their children fare. The children of black immigrants are more likely to go to and complete college than native blacks (and whites) and are less likely to drop out of high school.
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This is a complicated picture, so you might be right that there is no proof that (the children of, which is not what I said admittedly) immigrants perform better than wealthy American-born students, but there are metrics by which they are superior (such as drop out rate).

EDIT: I originally intended to say that students in other countries performed better than Americans in the classroom, which is also just partially true. American performance in the classroom is average to mediocre and pretty dismal when you factor in economic factors. The south in particular is pretty swamped with very stupid children. I worked for a company that graded state standard testing and I can tell you - kids from South Carolina are on average incredibly stupid.
 
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ludin said:
I never said anything that you have argued and your strawman goes blowing down the street.
these people are not doctors etc ...
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You said refugees make America worse. I said that, in my life, I've seen them contribute first hand. Can you explain what the strawman is in this case? Did you not say that refugees aren't going to contribute to society? Because I think you said exactly that.
 
Mustachio said:
You're partially correct. I was basing my statement on studies that show that the US is falling behind other major countries academically, but it wasn't a study about how they performed within the United States. Here, economic disparity and performance in the classroom continues to be pretty closely associated. But I'm not sure if I'm right on not, as this study shows.



This is a complicated picture, so you might be right that there is no proof that (the children of, which is not what I said admittedly) immigrants perform better than wealthy American-born students, but there are metrics by which they are superior (such as drop out rate).

EDIT: I originally intended to say that students in other countries performed better than Americans in the classroom, which is also just partially true. American performance in the classroom is average to mediocre and pretty dismal when you factor in economic factors. The south in particular is pretty swamped with very stupid children. I worked for a company that graded state standard testing and I can tell you - kids from South Carolina are on average incredibly stupid.
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I'll respond in more detail tomorrow.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I'll respond in more detail tomorrow.
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It's a pretty complicated picture and a lot of my evidence is based on two things:
1. Working at a company that had contracts with states to grade standardized testing (circa 2005-2007ish)
2. My own experiences in a city with the highest Somali population in the US

feel free to add whatever. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. It seems pretty complex though (just determining student performance alone was). They make up stats, it's kind of a sham.
 
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