Easy answer to illegal immigration?

Glen Contrarian said:

Okay, just to address your over-sensitive sensibilities - "there is nothing (other than the solution I already stated earlier) that America could do within the bounds of our laws, national traditions, and social mores that can stanch the flow of illegal immigrants."

Okay? Is that more acceptable to you?

Good grief, guy - we're all intelligent people here, meaning that we generally get what each other means, even when we disagree strongly with each other. We don't have to cover every possibility, however unlikely, as one might find in legal documents or insurance coverage papers.

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That is an opinion and nothing more. You have absolutely no evidence to support your claims.

If there aren't jobs or government aid for people who illegally immigrate here then there would undeniably be at least one person who opts out. Thus, less illegal immigrants.

If you get your arm cut off and you're bleeding out and the medic can't stop the bloodflow completely they aren't just going to say "Eff it, no tourniquet." They will stem as much of the blood loss as possible.

How is this any different? Just because we can't completely stop the problem doesn't mean we shouldn't work to reduce it.

HenryLewis said:

That is an opinion and nothing more. You have absolutely no evidence to support your claims.

If there aren't jobs or government aid for people who illegally immigrate here then there would undeniably be at least one person who opts out. Thus, less illegal immigrants.

When you are dying from an incurable disease the doctors don't just say "Eff it, he's going to die anyways." They do what they can to help alleviate the problem even if they can't cure it.

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How well do you know the immigrant community? My wife was once an illegal immigrant, and got her citizenship through Reagan's amnesty...and she's never drawn a single day of unemployment - she's too proud for that. Instead, she's been a boss providing jobs for others (all citizens or legal residents) for over twenty years. I know the immigrant community - both legal and illegal - very well indeed. And I can tell you from long experience that it doesn't matter what laws are passed or how well they're enforced, as long as America is more prosperous and safer than their home countries, they WILL come here.

Also, most illegal immigrants cross our borders legally - they usually become illegal because they decided to remain here and overstay their visas instead of going home.

And when it comes to the impact of illegals, it seems you'd benefit from some myth-busting.

What you will get with the solution though is.. you would have to prove that the company knowingly hired illegals. To know you would have to require e-verify and currently its up to the states. half the states don't require it. its up to the company. a few states actively fight it like California and Illinois.

Glen Contrarian said:

How well do you know the immigrant community? My wife was once an illegal immigrant, and got her citizenship through Reagan's amnesty...and she's never drawn a single day of unemployment - she's too proud for that. Instead, she's been a boss providing jobs for others (all citizens or legal residents) for over twenty years. I know the immigrant community - both legal and illegal - very well indeed. And I can tell you from long experience that it doesn't matter what laws are passed or how well they're enforced, as long as America is more prosperous and safer than their home countries, they WILL come here.

Also, most illegal immigrants cross our borders legally - they usually become illegal because they decided to remain here and overstay their visas instead of going home.

And when it comes to the impact of illegals, it seems you'd benefit from some myth-busting.

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You apparently have no clue why I am anti-immigration. I already stated it was to reduce the population. You are claiming that allowing immigration doesn't affect our population?

You're crazy! Please find another thread to troll.

SocialD said:

What you will get with the solution though is.. you would have to prove that the company knowingly hired illegals. To know you would have to require e-verify and currently its up to the states. half the states don't require it. its up to the company. a few states actively fight it like California and Illinois.

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Or you just make it the responsibility of the companies to verify that who they are hiring is in fact a legal immigrant. A tax return is more than enough to prove this.

Making illegal immigration one step harder is going to add an additional choke point, thus lessening how many people immigrate here illegally.

HenryLewis said:

Or you just make it the responsibility of the companies to verify that who they are hiring is in fact a legal immigrant. A tax return is more than enough to prove this.

Making illegal immigration one step harder is going to add an additional choke point, thus lessening how many people immigrate here illegally.

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But how do you enforce it if you are asking the companies to police it themselves. ?

Glen Contrarian said:

How well do you know the immigrant community? My wife was once an illegal immigrant, and got her citizenship through Reagan's amnesty...and she's never drawn a single day of unemployment - she's too proud for that. Instead, she's been a boss providing jobs for others (all citizens or legal residents) for over twenty years. I know the immigrant community - both legal and illegal - very well indeed. And I can tell you from long experience that it doesn't matter what laws are passed or how well they're enforced, as long as America is more prosperous and safer than their home countries, they WILL come here.

Also, most illegal immigrants cross our borders legally - they usually become illegal because they decided to remain here and overstay their visas instead of going home.

And when it comes to the impact of illegals, it seems you'd benefit from some myth-busting.

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Would your proud wife have immigrated here if there weren't any jobs or welfare programs to support her?

That story is directly contrasting your previous claims. If people can't get jobs then less people will immigrate here, partly due to pride.

End of story. That is factual.

HenryLewis said:

Would your proud wife have immigrated here if there weren't any jobs or welfare programs to support her?

That story is directly contrasting your previous claims. If people can't get jobs then less people will immigrate here, partly due to pride.

End of story. That is factual.

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So the solution is to make sure there are no jobs.

That sounds.....counterproductive.

SocialD said:

But how do you enforce it if you are asking the companies to police it themselves. ?

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I never asked companies to police themselves... Where did you possibly read that?

I said that by raising the fines dramatically companies will avoid illegal labor even if the chances of getting caught are extremely low.

This is called math. A $3,200 fine is 100 times less scary than a $320,000 dollar fine. This increase means less people would risk breaking the law even if you don't change the frequency at which you check for illegal laborers.

HenryLewis said:

I never asked companies to police themselves... Where did you possibly read that?

I said that by raising the fines dramatically companies will avoid illegal labor even if the chances of getting caught are extremely low.

This is called math. A $3,200 fine is 100 times less scary than a $320,000 dollar fine. This increase means less people would risk breaking the law even if you don't change the frequency at which you check for illegal laborers.

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you said "Or you just make it the responsibility of the companies to verify that who they are hiring is in fact a legal immigrant. A tax return is more than enough to prove this."
So its their responsibility... and you said a tax return would be good enough.
So what if they are new to the country? wouldn't have a previous tax return.. what if they have stolen someones identity and have filed as that person.. these are the people you definitely want to catch but the company wouldn't know anything.
No you would have to have a nationalized mandatory system.

HenryLewis said:

Would your proud wife have immigrated here if there weren't any jobs or welfare programs to support her?

That story is directly contrasting your previous claims. If people can't get jobs then less people will immigrate here, partly due to pride.

End of story. That is factual.

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Yeah, she woulda come here. That was what she intended to do, and that's what she did. However, if where she came from had been almost as safe and prosperous as America was, then she wouldn't have come.

And you didn't learn a thing - AGAIN, as I learned over there, and as immigrants (legal and otherwise) prove in America every day, if you can't get a job, then you make your own job. It makes no difference at all to them - if they can't find a job, they'll make their own job or jobs.

You apparently have not had the experience I have had, and so you can't really understand their drive and determination. Very few native-born Americans have had the experience of real hunger - but many, many immigrants have. Very few native-born Americans have had the experience of having to find ways to make money or else one's family starves - but many immigrants have. Very few native-born Americans have had the experience of having to deal with corruption every day of their lives (and regardless of what you think, America's level of corruption is relatively low) - but many immigrants have.

And so when they come here, they work harder...and if they can't find a job, they find ways to make their own job, whether by being domestic helpers or groundskeepers or movers or whatever.

It would do you a world of good to go live in a third-world democracy for a while, that you might learn how very easy you've had it all your life...and that you might learn just how and why the great majority of immigrants are so much more determined than the normal native-born "American".

HenryLewis said:

You apparently have no clue why I am anti-immigration. I already stated it was to reduce the population. You are claiming that allowing immigration doesn't affect our population?

You're crazy! Please find another thread to troll.

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No, I'm not crazy. But I am well aware of what happens to nations that strongly restrict immigration. Just ask Japan.

ttwtt78640 said:

Why? If they do the job satisfactorily then I pay them in cash - if not then they walk away broke. That is the simple beauty of contract labor and how a good number of illegal aliens make a living without need of ID or getting "hired".

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It isn't worth breaking the law, really. And it is a bad idea to allow the government to make laws that it does not enforce robustly.

joG said:

It isn't worth breaking the law, really. And it is a bad idea to allow the government to make laws that it does not enforce robustly.

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I think that we agree, for the most part, but simply have a different definition of "employ a person". I consider an employee to be a person that you must give a W-2 - as opposed to an independent contractor that is paid to perform a specific job for you independently and unsupervised. A subtle difference perhaps, but a person that simply mows your lawn, even if multiple times per year, is not your employee.

MaggieD said:

Anyone not hiring through a professional service today us very foolish. Someone injured on your property while mowing your lawn...painting your house...washing your windows? Your homeowners insurance does NOT protect you. And, chances are very great they have no workers comp insurance of their own.

Aren't employing people directly. No EVerify responsibility.

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That is the problem the businesses itself is legit as far as the state is concerned.
They have all the bonding and permits required. the problem is they hire day labors
and other such people most of which are illegal.

I use to be in the construction business and I saw this a lot. it was hit or miss though and sometimes ended up
costing the contractor a ton of money. I was in 1 neighborhood and the Super was having to go back and reframe
about 10 houses that were screwed up because the illegals doing it messed up and they couldn't pass
framing inspection. It costs money each time they come out to inspect as well.

So you would be covered as their businesses are insured.

Glen Contrarian said:

No, I'm not crazy. But I am well aware of what happens to nations that strongly restrict immigration. Just ask Japan.

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This is where you don't get it. Promoting legal immigration is a great thing. Not curbing or getting control of illegal immigration is a bad thing.
Allowing tons of low skill workers into the market forces pay lower for people that otherwise would be paid a good wage.

Meat processing use to pay good pay 15 an hour. With the influx of illegal labor into the market wages have dropped to
8-10 dollars an hour.

Glen Contrarian said:

Also, most illegal immigrants cross our borders legally - they usually become illegal because they decided to remain here and overstay their visas instead of going home.

And when it comes to the impact of illegals, it seems you'd benefit from some myth-busting.

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I'm glad you found someone to spend your life with GlenContrarian. The fact your wife was an illegal alien would certainly change your perspective on the subject.

Your claims are false GC. According to every study and review I looked at, most illegal aliens cross the border illegally. By most estimates, the number who illegally overstay their visas ranges between 35-50% of the total population.

A quickie from Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

Visa overstay[edit]


As to your Myth Busting, these claims are laughable. How well do you know the illegal alien community? I've had to deal with illegal aliens trying to work for me for decades. Income taxes? They claim to maximum number of dependents on their W-4's. It's one of the things that trips them up. Social Security? Do you have a clue how big a problem is with fraudulent I.D's? That's the other thing that trips them up. We get a letter from SSA stating that there is a problem with So and So's SS number. We ask them to go the HR to clear it up, and guess what, they disappear.

I get you have an emotional investment in the issue, as it strikes closer to home than anything else, but that doesn't change the facts. When considering the social and economic impact on infrastructure, housing, employment, healthcare, education, and law enforcement, illegal aliens are a massive drain on the U.S..

These facts are indisputable. Just ask citizen in Black Communities about the impact of illegal aliens on the communities.

ttwtt78640 said:

That may put a dent in the problem but how do you E verify the personnel sent to mow your lawn, watch your kid(s), fix your fence or clean your pool? What about the masses that hang out at Home Depot to do day labor? Subcontract (1099) labor is not technically an employee. Most construction and farm work is subcontracted out. I, for example, being self employed get "hired" quite often but am never actually anyone's employee and much of my (handyman) competition is illegal as hell.

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You could do it with workmen's comp. You make it illegal to insure an illegal alien. If a claim is filed you look at the employee documentation if it's forged, that's a separate matter. The state Employment Department can verify also.

The bottom line states like California do not want you to discriminate between legal and illegal hires, period.

Glen Contrarian said:

How well do you know the immigrant community? My wife was once an illegal immigrant, and got her citizenship through Reagan's amnesty...and she's never drawn a single day of unemployment - she's too proud for that. Instead, she's been a boss providing jobs for others (all citizens or legal residents) for over twenty years. I know the immigrant community - both legal and illegal - very well indeed. And I can tell you from long experience that it doesn't matter what laws are passed or how well they're enforced, as long as America is more prosperous and safer than their home countries, they WILL come here.

Also, most illegal immigrants cross our borders legally - they usually become illegal because they decided to remain here and overstay their visas instead of going home.

And when it comes to the impact of illegals, it seems you'd benefit from some myth-busting.

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a little over 40% are visa over stays

the rest, nearly 60% are border crossers

and if we stop all the businesses hiring illegals, yes, some will stay and try and build their own

and 4 out of 5 will fail....big surprise

and those that dont try and start their own business, will find jobs hard to come by

that is what we want....where they self deport, because we no longer will make it easy for them here

HenryLewis said:

The Answer:
This answer is to impose fines upon the people who are hiring the illegal immigrants, as opposed to the immigrants themselves.

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As is often the case...



I absolutely agree with your assertion that we need to come down harder on businesses that are hiring illegals. And mind you, this issue goes far beyond simply "wealthy" owners, nor should it target only them.

However, in no way does that mean we should simply avoid action towards illegal immigrants. There is nothing that says we must focus our efforts on one aspect or another. It's entirely feasible to go after both groups. Not only is it feasible, it's preferred. The reality is that every illegal immigrants situation is different and while many could be inconvenienced enough by failing to find work that they end up leaving, the reality is that there are undoubtedly some where that won't be a significant enough deterrent.

If the problem truly is that we have too large of a illegal immigrant population and that we need to significantly take steps to reduce or remove it, then we should not be limiting methods in which we do it that are legal and reasonable. And taking action against those in this country as a means of removing them from it, or making it far more difficult for them to stay, is reasonable both from a position of targeting the businesses and one based around targeting them.

But you do see the chicken and the egg issues; it's not the people, it's congress. Many Republicans in congress don't want to take action because they rely on the Chamber of Commerce and other business interests who wish to keep that workforce in place. On the flip side, many Democrats in congress don't want to take action because they rely on the influx of new potential votes (in terms of so called "anchor babies" growing to voting age) and the hispanic community that they've painted themselves the champions of specifically by opposing action against illegal immigration (of which, the vast majority is hispanic in nature).

HenryLewis said:

A $3,200 dollar fine is a COMPLETE joke. Multiply that by 100 and employers might start caring.

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There's a difference between saying that the penalty is a joke and saying that none exists. All I did was demonstrate that the leftist meme that employers are not punished is yet another lie regarding immigration. Which I did, and instead of recognizing that when you said "This answer is to impose fines upon the people who are hiring the illegal immigrants, as opposed to the immigrants themselves." in the OP that you were wrong.

Now, are the fines high enough? Hell no. However, that's an entirely different discussion than that which you proposed. WHY? Because you claimed that fines needed to be enacted which means they didn't exist and that nothing has been done because it "... is altogether avoided because of its apparent impact on wealthy business owners ..." which may be true, but it was the Democrats in Congress that created these fines and their levels and would be the ones that kowtowed to businesses, like farmers in Democrat controlled California. You did add that the fines, once established, needed to be high enough to make using illegals a bad business model, which I agree with. But, that's not what you based the argument upon, which was that fines needed to be established and that the reason there were no fines was because of rich business owners (a less than obscure political finger pointing at the GOP when it's the Democrats that didn't keep their agreement to Reagan when he kept his to the Democrats and gave amnesty to millions.). A friendly suggestion would be to do some research on the facts before you start bloviating and lecturing about a subject that you obviously aren't educated on when you make such obvious errors in your statements as if they are facts.

DifferentDrummr said:

And yet they still refuse to back any such enforcement efforts. Go figure. :roll:

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You may want to read the Constitution (Article II) to learn which branch of government is empowered to enforce the law and then check to see which party has been in control of that branch for the past 8 years - here's a hint... not the GOP.

In fact, it's your guy that created executive orders opening the borders to kids from Central and South America that flooded our southern states and tied the hands of law enforcement with those that are here already.

I know it's fun to play poke the elephant, but sometimes you find yourself actually getting **** on by a donkey which is what your post above demonstrates.

Beaudreaux said:

You may want to read the Constitution (Article II) to learn which branch of government is empowered to enforce the law and then check to see which party has been in control of that branch for the past 8 years - here's a hint... not the GOP.

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And who funds all that enforcement? Hint: the GOP-controlled Congress.

In fact, it's your guy that created executive orders opening the borders to kids from Central and South America that flooded our southern states and tied the hands of law enforcement with those that are here already.

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And he was wrong to do that. I've never tried to claim that everything "my guy" does is wonderful.

I know it's fun to play poke the elephant, but sometimes you find yourself actually getting **** on by a donkey which is what your post above demonstrates.

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I poke whichever animal needs the harder poking. (Which is usually the elephant, due to its thicker skull.)

HenryLewis said:

Which is exactly why I posed this solution. Many illegals are deported multiple times in several year periods. If their employer(s) had incurred massive fines/jail time in each of the instances when they got deported then the agency would not only pay for itself, it would put several corrupt business owners out of business.

You don't need high enforcement levels. You need hefty fines or jail time. You CAN scare people into being honest with repercussions.

Your chances of getting caught stealing packages from a neighbor are pretty dang low, but the threat of legal action still keeps most people honest.

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Except that's not true. Most folks don't steal. What keeps them honest is themselves. It's the other jackholes who are not so honest that we have to have all those repercussions for.

Look, fining the employer isn't a bad idea, but it won't address the problem of illegal aliens all by it's lonesome. Now, make it so there is no path for the children here, no education, no social services, nothing but a bus ride back home. That would help.

Glen Contrarian said:

There is one and ONLY one thing that can be done to stanch the flow of illegal immigrants into America: make their home nations nearly as prosperous and nearly as safe as America already is.

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That is hardly true. Making their lives here impossible would do the trick. They cannot start make their own job if they cannot get insurance, drive, rent or buy property, get an ID card, send their kids to school, have a bank account, etc. Like you said, if their lives are miserable, they will pack up the family and find someplace better to live. No need to go door to door if they leave on their own.