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A good article on Truman wrongly using nuclear weapons

You haven't offered any actual counterargument to deny. Why do you think Japan would have surrendered in the face of mass starvation when it did not deter them when it first became clear?

You are smart not to deny the truth.


You keep thinking these are my opinions.


They are not.



Now....before we go on...whose opinions am I referring to?
 
You are smart not to deny the truth.

You haven't posted a shred of truth at all. You have posted repeated opinions of people who you keep subscribing to because you think they back you. And every time I present evidence that their views may not have been accurate, or were in fact just flat out untrue, you fall back on them.

They are not.

You are right, because to do otherwise would require you to actually provide evidence of something.

Now....before we go on...whose opinions am I referring to?

Your appeal to authority is noted and dismissed.

Provide evidence Japan would have surrendered. Not just cherry-picked quotes, raw data and evidence from the Japanese themselves.
 
You haven't posted a shred of truth at all. You have posted repeated opinions of people who you keep subscribing to because you think they back you. And every time I present evidence that their views may not have been accurate, or were in fact just flat out untrue, you fall back on them.



You are right, because to do otherwise would require you to actually provide evidence of something.



Your appeal to authority is noted and dismissed.

Provide evidence Japan would have surrendered. Not just cherry-picked quotes, raw data and evidence from the Japanese themselves.

We can not move on if you think these are my opinions. They are not. If you are unfamiliar with the evidence I am citing please reread the thread and then return
 
If you are unfamiliar with the evidence I am citing please reread the thread and then return

You are not citing any evidence. You are citing opinions.

I pointed out that there is little evidence support the claim that Japan would have surrendered in the face of starvation. Refute it with counter-evidence.
 
You are not citing any evidence. You are citing your opinion.

I pointed out that there is little evidence support the claim that Japan would have surrendered in the face of starvation. Refute it with counter-evidence.

I do not cite my opinion. I cite the opinion of the greatest military minds this country has ever known and a study by the YS Army and a Japanese expert historian.


Shall I start posting the quotes again?
 
It doesn't surprise anyone that MacArthur was against the bomb. He said he would've done a better job, keeping the Russians out of Manchuria even. MacArthur had a very high opinion about himself.

And it didn't help that Truman fired MacArthur over MacArthur's performance in Korea.



Eisenhower said he didn't support dropping the bomb. Eisenhower wanted to run for president but a lot of voters feared he was a warmonger. Ike saying he wouldn't drop the bomb was a way of mollifying voters who wanted peace.

Eisenhower was a republican. It's not uncommon for a republican presidential hopeful to criticize a democrat president like Truman.

The admiral guy who criticized the bomb said he could've done it with a naval blockade. A navy guy saying all that was needed to get the Japanese to surrender was the navy. I'm not surprised.
 
I cite the opinion of the greatest military minds this country has ever known

Several which were shown to be quite literally opinion with no facts to back them up.


and a study by the YS Army and

Anyone who has spent a day in uniform can tell you the Army can be wrong, especially a 70 year old report that doesn't have access to the information we have now.

a Japanese expert historian.

That ignores the recorded history of Japan's leadersip.
 
It doesn't surprise anyone that MacArthur was against the bomb. He said he would've done a better job, keeping the Russians out of Manchuria even. MacArthur had a very high opinion about himself.

And it didn't help that Truman fired MacArthur over MacArthur's performance in Korea.



Eisenhower said he didn't support dropping the bomb. Eisenhower wanted to run for president but a lot of voters feared he was a warmonger. Ike saying he wouldn't drop the bomb was a way of mollifying voters who wanted peace.

Eisenhower was a republican. It's not uncommon for a republican presidential hopeful to criticize a democrat president like Truman.

The admiral guy who criticized the bomb said he could've done it with a naval blockade. A navy guy saying all that was needed to get the Japanese to surrender was the navy. I'm not surprised.

You left out Arnold, nimitz, lemay and lots of others.



But you have an answer for all of them. Lol
 
Several which were shown to be quite literally opinion with no facts to back them up.




Anyone who has spent a day in uniform can tell you the Army can be wrong, especially a 70 year old report that doesn't have access to the information we have now.



That ignores the recorded history of Japan's leadersip.

Great let's see your evidence.


All I see are unsupported claims. Lol
 
Great let's see your evidence.

Of Japan's decision to surrender? I have posted that several times here.

Of that no atomic bomb would kill more Japanese? I have also posted that.

You keep demanding evidence and I have provided it. Instead what you do is vaguely insist that I need evidence without citing anything.
 
Of Japan's decision to surrender? I have posted that several times here.

Of that no atomic bomb would kill more Japanese? I have also posted that.

You keep demanding evidence and I have provided it. Instead what you do is vaguely insist that I need evidence without citing anything.


If you look at his history, he never gives in. Even if he doesn't know anything about the subject.
 
Of Japan's decision to surrender? I have posted that several times here.

Of that no atomic bomb would kill more Japanese? I have also posted that.

You keep demanding evidence and I have provided it. Instead what you do is vaguely insist that I need evidence without citing anything.

Then I eill.provide mine again


The 1946 United States*Strategic Bombing Survey*in Japan, whose members included*Paul Nitze,[citation needed]*concluded the atomic bombs had been unnecessary to win the war. They said:

There is little point in attempting precisely to impute Japan's unconditional surrender to any one of the numerous causes which jointly and cumulatively were responsible for Japan's disaster. The time lapse between military impotence and political acceptance of the inevitable might have been shorter had the political structure of Japan permitted a more rapid and decisive determination of national policies. Nevertheless, it seems clear that, even without the atomic bombing attacks, air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion.

Bаsеd on а dеtаilеd invеstigаtion of аll thе fаcts, аnd supportеd by thе tеstimony of thе surviving Jаpаnеsе lеаdеrs involvеd, it is thе Survеy's opinion thаt cеrtаinly prior to 31 Dеcеmbеr 1945, аnd in аll probаbility prior to 1 Novеmbеr 1945, Jаpаn would hаvе surrеndеrеd еvеn if thе аtomic bombs hаd not bееn droppеd, еvеn if Russiа hаd not еntеrеd thе wаr, аnd еvеn if no invаsion hаd bееn plаnnеd or contеmplаtеd.[88][89]
 
If you look at his history, he never gives in. Even if he doesn't know anything about the subject.

Not when I am right.


Time for another personal attack? Want to tell me I hate my country? Lol
 
Then I eill.provide mine again


The 1946 United States*Strategic Bombing Survey*in Japan, whose members included*Paul Nitze,[citation needed]*concluded the atomic bombs had been unnecessary to win the war. They said:

There is little point in attempting precisely to impute Japan's unconditional surrender to any one of the numerous causes which jointly and cumulatively were responsible for Japan's disaster. The time lapse between military impotence and political acceptance of the inevitable might have been shorter had the political structure of Japan permitted a more rapid and decisive determination of national policies. Nevertheless, it seems clear that, even without the atomic bombing attacks, air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion.

Bаsеd on а dеtаilеd invеstigаtion of аll thе fаcts, аnd supportеd by thе tеstimony of thе surviving Jаpаnеsе lеаdеrs involvеd, it is thе Survеy's opinion thаt cеrtаinly prior to 31 Dеcеmbеr 1945, аnd in аll probаbility prior to 1 Novеmbеr 1945, Jаpаn would hаvе surrеndеrеd еvеn if thе аtomic bombs hаd not bееn droppеd, еvеn if Russiа hаd not еntеrеd thе wаr, аnd еvеn if no invаsion hаd bееn plаnnеd or contеmplаtеd.[88][89]

What you leave out is that fact that had Japan been allowed to keep fighting until November or December 1945, the death toll would have exceeded the deaths caused by the atomic bomb.
 
What you leave out is that fact that had Japan been allowed to keep fighting until November or December 1945, the death toll would have exceeded the deaths caused by the atomic bomb.


The firebombing of Tokyo killed roughly as many people as the two atomic bombs. 90K for the firebombing and 120K for the two atomic bombs.
 
What you leave out is that fact that had Japan been allowed to keep fighting until November or December 1945, the death toll would have exceeded the deaths caused by the atomic bomb.

Lemay gave it 2 weeks. Later he said it would likely have been even less


If we gave them the condition they wanted they probably would have surrendered in July
 
Lemay gave it 2 weeks. Later he said it would likely have been even less

2 weeks for what?

The Big Six gave no indication they were going to surrender under his continued bombing alone.
 
2 weeks for what?

The Big Six gave no indication they were going to surrender under his continued bombing alone.

Well we didnt tell them we would not try the emperor did we?
 
Well we didnt tell them we would not try the emperor did we?

That wouldn't have really mattered; the initial demands by the pro-war side of the Big Six were no occupation and no war crimes trials held by the Allies. They didn't change their tune until Hirohito told them to on 9 August after Nagasaki was hit.
 
That wouldn't have really mattered; the initial demands by the pro-war side of the Big Six were no occupation and no war crimes trials held by the Allies. They didn't change their tune until Hirohito told them to on 9 August after Nagasaki was hit.

Well that is certainly your opinion. But if we were going to do it anyway....why not offer it?



Because truman did not want a surrender yet.



He had a message he needed to send russia first
 
Well that is certainly your opinion.

No, it's fact.

The Cabinet meeting that afternoon did no more to settle the issue than the Big Six had that morning. The military again lined up against the civilians—all except Yonai, who maintained that nothing could be gained by continuing the war. “Therefore we must forget about ‘face’ and surrender as quickly as possible, and begin to consider at once how best to preserve the country.” His words incensed his fellow officers. Anami had difficulty in containing his animosity. “That we will inflict severe losses on the enemy when he invades Japan is certain,” he said, “and it is not impossible to reverse the situation and pull victory out of defeat.” Furthermore, Army units in the field would not submit to demobilization. “Our men will simply refuse to lay down their arms. They know they are forbidden to surrender. There is really no alternative for us but to continue the war.” Four civilian ministers—Agriculture, Commerce, Transportation and Munitions—differed. The people were on the verge of exhaustion; the rice crop was the poorest in years; the country no longer had the strength to fight. Anami interrupted impatiently. “Everyone understands all that, but we must fight to the end no matter how great the odds against us!”

Toland, John. The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945 (Modern Library War) . Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
 
No, it's fact.



Toland, John. The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945 (Modern Library War) . Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

No it's an opinion. Just his opinion
 
Everyone is entitled to a opinion.


I just happen to go with the opinion of the greatest military minds this country has ever known

We’re they really the greatest? Who says they are the greatest? Victory can be the best deodorant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
No it's an opinion. Just his opinion

No, it's recorded facts.

His unequivocal concurrence enraged War Minister Anami, the next in line. “I oppose the opinions of the Foreign Minister!” he exclaimed. The Army could not agree to surrender unless the Allies allowed Japan to demobilize her own troops, try her own war criminals and limit the occupation force. “If not, we must continue fighting with courage and find life in death.” His cheeks glistened with tears and his voice became strident as he pleaded for a last decisive battle in the homeland. “I am quite sure we could inflict great casualties on the enemy, and even if we fail in the attempt, our hundred million people are ready to die for honor, glorifying the deeds of the Japanese race in recorded history!” The shaven-headed Umezu got to his feet. It would be unthinkable, he announced sternly, to surrender unconditionally after so many brave men had died for the Emperor.

Toland, John. The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945 (Modern Library War) . Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
 
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