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A good article on Truman wrongly using nuclear weapons

“You know the most terrible decision a man ever had to make was made by me at Potsdam. It had nothing to do with Russia or Britain or Germany. It was a decision to loose the most terrible of all destructive forces for the wholesale slaughter of human beings. The Secretary of War, Mr. Stimson, and I weighed that decision most prayerfully. But the President had to decide. It occurred to me that a quarter of a million of the flower of our young manhood was worth a couple of Japanese cities, and I still think that they were and are. But I couldn’t help but think of the necessity of blotting out women and children and non-combatants. We gave them fair warning and asked them to quit. We picked a couple of cities where war work was the principle industry, and dropped bombs. Russia hurried in and the war ended.”


-- President Truman


The Atomic Bomb and the End of World War II | National Security Archive



Sure there were a lot of opinions expressed after the war. There was only one man who sat in on all the high level discussions, and was privy to all the high level intelligence. There was only one man who made the decision to drop the bomb.
 
swing_voter said:
Despite radar detection and cuing, airborne interception, attrition, and massive anti-aircraft barrages, 14 percent of Kamikazes survived to score a hit on a ship; nearly 8.5 percent of all ships hit by Kamikazes sank.


Kamikazes were very effective when you consider how cheap a plane is and expensive a ship is.
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My grandfather served on the USS Suwannee, CVE-27. On 25 October 1944 his ship was struck by 2 of them, and he lost a lot of friends. Typical of his generation, I knew he served, but he never talked about his time during the war. I only found out about his service after he died.

Suwannee-kamikaze.jpg


This is a photo of the second kamikaze plane, moments before it struck. The smoke from the earlier hit 4 hours before is still visible coming off of the ship.

The entire nation of Japan was almost suicidal. Planes, jets, boats, submarines, all were being prepared for use by suicide operators.

The Germans invented the Me 262. But only the Japanese turned it into the Nakajima J9N, or "Kikka", intended to be used as a suicide airplane to be used against US and allied ships.
 
Nickyjo said:
The US was opposed to Japanese expansion in that part of the war. Of course we criticized their atrocities, we are America, after all, but the bit of research I just did said it was their expansionism, brutal or not. They killed hundreds of thousands. In our hemisphere the US was opposed to any leftist movement, however democratic, in Latin America, due to our blind anti-communism and our own softer imperialism. We armed and trained soldiers and supported governments that murdered hundreds of thousands in our region. When Carter’s human rights policy criticized and withdrew aid from some of these countries, some on the moderate left in the region were flabbergasted. I saw an article in a Spanish language Christian magazine suggesting this was a way of recovering moral standing after Vietnam, else why would a country that had overthrown democracy and supported tyranny for decades care about, say, torture in Chile?

The difference between what Japan did in Asia and what the US helped others to do in Latin America was like the difference between dog **** and cat ****. Dog **** comes in larger quantities. Both stink.

I worked on these issues for 20 years. If you want stats and stories, I can provide them.
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If one wants to engage in whataboutism, one ought to be familiar with BOTH sides of a comparison.

In Japan's war against others they killed, excluding those suffered by China prior to 1937, 8.8 million mostly Chinese between 1937 and the end of 1941. By the end of the war they were responsible for the deaths of nearly 24 million allied and occupied peoples.

Nothing wrongly done by the US in Latin America, real or imagined, is anything like the price paid against innocents in Japan's relentless lust for an empire. A **** pile 100 times larger than that of the US in Latin America is not remotely comparable.

War Deaths Japanese Caused.jpg

Chart from: Gruhl, Werner. Imperial Japan's World War Two (p. 20). Taylor and Francis. Kindle Edition.
 
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LOS ALAMOS, N.M. — When a captured Nazi U-boat arrived at Portsmouth, N.H., toward the end of World War II, the American public was never told the significance of what was on board.
The German submarine was carrying 1,200 pounds of uranium oxide, ingredients for an atomic bomb, bound for Japan. Two Japanese officers on board were allowed to commit suicide.

Two months later, in the New Mexico desert, the United States detonated the first atomic bomb, a prelude to the obliteration of two Japanese cities.

Unknown to many of the people who built those bombs, not to mention the public, Japan was scrambling to build its own nuclear weapon.

New Details Emerge About Japan'''s Wartime A-Bomb Program - Los Angeles Times



Japan had an atomic bomb program of their own. The Germans sent them a half ton of processed uranium to make the first Japanese nuke.


.
 
swing_voter said:
LOS ALAMOS, N.M. — When a captured Nazi U-boat arrived at Portsmouth, N.H., toward the end of World War II, the American public was never told the significance of what was on board.
The German submarine was carrying 1,200 pounds of uranium oxide, ingredients for an atomic bomb, bound for Japan. Two Japanese officers on board were allowed to commit suicide.

Two months later, in the New Mexico desert, the United States detonated the first atomic bomb, a prelude to the obliteration of two Japanese cities.

Unknown to many of the people who built those bombs, not to mention the public, Japan was scrambling to build its own nuclear weapon.

New Details Emerge About Japan'''s Wartime A-Bomb Program - Los Angeles Times



Japan had an atomic bomb program of their own. The Germans sent them a half ton of processed uranium to make the first Japanese nuke.


.
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It is laughable to think japan was close to a bomb
 
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vegas giants said:
It is laughable to think japan was close to a bomb
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Why? Because they were "Little Yellow Men", and therefore could not comprehend such a thing?

I am sorry if you laugh, I can't help that you are an ignorant bigot.

All the way back in 1934, Tohoku University professor Hikosaka Tadayoshi Predicted not only the uses of the newly discovered "Atomic Fission", but predicted how it could be used for both weapons and power, as well as how those applications would work.

The founder of the Japanese Atomic Weapon Program was Dr. Yoshio Nishina. A friend and associate of both Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr, he also did nuclear physics research with Werner Heisenberg, Paul Dirac, and Oskar Klein. Together they discovered the Klein-Nishina Formula, that described how atomic particles scattered. He first got into contact with Dr. Nishina because of his interest in Dr. Hideki Yukawa. Dr. Yukawa created a theory on particle decay (half-life), which Dr. Klein clarified even further.

So yea, stupid yellow people, no chance they could every understand so complex as physics.

The fact was, in 1945 Japan not only had a working prototype of a uranium gun style bomb ("Little Boy"), they were starting to work on the idea of an implosion Plutonium bomb. The only thing that held them back was the lack of uranium. Germany tried to send them some, but the submarine with the shipment was captured. But if they had gotten enough uranium, then it is very likely that if we had to invade, we would have been hit with their own Atomic Bombs.

And the fact is, Japan was far ahead of Germany in their development. Germany was following a "wrong path", because of Hitler's refusal to allow research into Fission, and was trying to create a "Direct Fusion" weapon. Which we know is impossible.
 
Oozlefinch said:
Why? Because they were "Little Yellow Men", and therefore could not comprehend such a thing?

I am sorry if you laugh, I can't help that you are an ignorant bigot.

All the way back in 1934, Tohoku University professor Hikosaka Tadayoshi Predicted not only the uses of the newly discovered "Atomic Fission", but predicted how it could be used for both weapons and power, as well as how those applications would work.

The founder of the Japanese Atomic Weapon Program was Dr. Yoshio Nishina. A friend and associate of both Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr, he also did nuclear physics research with Werner Heisenberg, Paul Dirac, and Oskar Klein. Together they discovered the Klein-Nishina Formula, that described how atomic particles scattered. He first got into contact with Dr. Nishina because of his interest in Dr. Hideki Yukawa. Dr. Yukawa created a theory on particle decay (half-life), which Dr. Klein clarified even further.

So yea, stupid yellow people, no chance they could every understand so complex as physics.

The fact was, in 1945 Japan not only had a working prototype of a uranium gun style bomb ("Little Boy"), they were starting to work on the idea of an implosion Plutonium bomb. The only thing that held them back was the lack of uranium. Germany tried to send them some, but the submarine with the shipment was captured. But if they had gotten enough uranium, then it is very likely that if we had to invade, we would have been hit with their own Atomic Bombs.

And the fact is, Japan was far ahead of Germany in their development. Germany was following a "wrong path", because of Hitler's refusal to allow research into Fission, and was trying to create a "Direct Fusion" weapon. Which we know is impossible.
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Wow that was pretty racist. Dude you make up this nonsense and expect people to believe it.


And it is really racist


The*Japanese program to develop nuclear weapons*was conducted during*World War II. Like the*German nuclear weapons program, it suffered from an array of problems, and was ultimately unable to progress beyond the laboratory stage before the*atomic bombings*of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the*Japanese surrender*in August 1945.


Japanese nuclear weapon program - Wikipedia
 
Oozlefinch said:
Why? Because they were "Little Yellow Men", and therefore could not comprehend such a thing?

I am sorry if you laugh, I can't help that you are an ignorant bigot.

All the way back in 1934, Tohoku University professor Hikosaka Tadayoshi Predicted not only the uses of the newly discovered "Atomic Fission", but predicted how it could be used for both weapons and power, as well as how those applications would work.

The founder of the Japanese Atomic Weapon Program was Dr. Yoshio Nishina. A friend and associate of both Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr, he also did nuclear physics research with Werner Heisenberg, Paul Dirac, and Oskar Klein. Together they discovered the Klein-Nishina Formula, that described how atomic particles scattered. He first got into contact with Dr. Nishina because of his interest in Dr. Hideki Yukawa. Dr. Yukawa created a theory on particle decay (half-life), which Dr. Klein clarified even further.

So yea, stupid yellow people, no chance they could every understand so complex as physics.

The fact was, in 1945 Japan not only had a working prototype of a uranium gun style bomb ("Little Boy"), they were starting to work on the idea of an implosion Plutonium bomb. The only thing that held them back was the lack of uranium. Germany tried to send them some, but the submarine with the shipment was captured. But if they had gotten enough uranium, then it is very likely that if we had to invade, we would have been hit with their own Atomic Bombs.

And the fact is, Japan was far ahead of Germany in their development. Germany was following a "wrong path", because of Hitler's refusal to allow research into Fission, and was trying to create a "Direct Fusion" weapon. Which we know is impossible.
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That's what this is about. It's racism.

Japs weren't a threat, they're trying to tell us.

They were every bit as good as we were in many aspect. Their willingness to sacrifice themselves for the greater good exceeded ours.
 
swing_voter said:
That's what this is about. It's racism.

Japs weren't a threat, they're trying to tell us.

They were every bit as good as we were in many aspect. Their willingness to sacrifice themselves for the greater good exceeded ours.
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Please tell.me you think they were close to an atomic weapon


HAHAHAHAHA
 
swing_voter said:
That's what this is about. It's racism.

Japs weren't a threat, they're trying to tell us.

They were every bit as good as we were in many aspect. Their willingness to sacrifice themselves for the greater good exceeded ours.
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Yea, I even said what the problems were, their access to uranium. But when Germany surrendered, U-234 was captured by the US Navy. Aboard were 2 Japanese Naval officers. When notified that the submarine was going to surrender, they committed suicide

Aboard the sub the Americans found over 1,200 pounds of Uranium Oxide, enough to produce almost 8 pounds of U235, about 20% of what would be needed to manufacture a fission device. That uranium was then sent on to Oak Ridge, where it was likely used to create at least one of the bombs used in Japan, as well as for the first tests after the war.

Japan was really ahead of most nations, they even had the 2 largest cyclotrons in the world at the time. They had a working refining process that was producing bomb grade U235 through thermal diffusion (the same process Oak Ridge used). They had the process to extract it, they had a working bomb design. The only thing they lacked was uranium.

And if the Uranium Mines in Manchuko (Manchuria) had been known then, they would have had the uranium. Or any of the 9 locations in China that are now the home of uranium mines (but were largely unknown at the time). China currently mines around 750 tons of ore every year. So Japan actually had all the uranium they needed, they just did not know it.
 
Oozlefinch said:
Yea, I even said what the problems were, their access to uranium. But when Germany surrendered, U-234 was captured by the US Navy. Aboard were 2 Japanese Naval officers. When notified that the submarine was going to surrender, they committed suicide

Aboard the sub the Americans found over 1,200 pounds of Uranium Oxide, enough to produce almost 8 pounds of U235, about 20% of what would be needed to manufacture a fission device. That uranium was then sent on to Oak Ridge, where it was likely used to create at least one of the bombs used in Japan, as well as for the first tests after the war.

Japan was really ahead of most nations, they even had the 2 largest cyclotrons in the world at the time. They had a working refining process that was producing bomb grade U235 through thermal diffusion (the same process Oak Ridge used). They had the process to extract it, they had a working bomb design. The only thing they lacked was uranium.

And if the Uranium Mines in Manchuko (Manchuria) had been known then, they would have had the uranium. Or any of the 9 locations in China that are now the home of uranium mines (but were largely unknown at the time). China currently mines around 750 tons of ore every year. So Japan actually had all the uranium they needed, they just did not know it.
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They were a long way from an actual bomb. The evidence I posted was quite clear
 
vegas giants said:
They were a long way from an actual bomb. The evidence I posted was quite clear
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Right.

One of the largest delays in their program was that they had to move from Japan to Korea because of the increase in bombings. So they moved to this small peninsula in Northern Korea. Not far from where the Chosin Hydroelectric Plant was producing heavy water, as more than enough electricity to support their research.

The name of where they set up? Konan. One of the first locations seized by the Soviets when they invaded.

And ironically enough, it is known today as Hungnam. It is actually the location of the uranium mines that North Korea gets it's uranium from. As well as the research facility that they use to make their bombs. Once again, they were sitting on top of the very thing they needed, they just did not know it at the time. And everybody knows of the UK drive to destroy the Norwegian dams that produced Heavy Water for the Germans. Well, the plant at Chosin was producing almost twice as much heavy water.

They had the bomb, they had the refinement process. They only lacked the uranium, but they were working on that. The Burma Railroad that was used in the movie? It was primarily built to get sands from Burma that had uranium. That was the only source they knew of in their territory. So they were not a "long way", they simply did not realize they already had what they needed.
 
Oozlefinch said:
Right.

One of the largest delays in their program was that they had to move from Japan to Korea because of the increase in bombings. So they moved to this small peninsula in Northern Korea. Not far from where the Chosin Hydroelectric Plant was producing heavy water, as more than enough electricity to support their research.

The name of where they set up? Konan. One of the first locations seized by the Soviets when they invaded.

And ironically enough, it is known today as Hungnam. It is actually the location of the uranium mines that North Korea gets it's uranium from. As well as the research facility that they use to make their bombs. Once again, they were sitting on top of the very thing they needed, they just did not know it at the time. And everybody knows of the UK drive to destroy the Norwegian dams that produced Heavy Water for the Germans. Well, the plant at Chosin was producing almost twice as much heavy water.

They had the bomb, they had the refinement process. They only lacked the uranium, but they were working on that. The Burma Railroad that was used in the movie? It was primarily built to get sands from Burma that had uranium. That was the only source they knew of in their territory. So they were not a "long way", they simply did not realize they already had what they needed.
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No they did not have a bomb. That is laughably wrong and I presented evidence to prove it.


You have nothing. Lol
 
vegas giants said:
They were a long way from an actual bomb. The evidence I posted was quite clear
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Nobody outside of a few people in Japan knew that.

They did have an atomic bomb program. Nobody in America knew how far they were along. Spying on Japan was next to impossible.
 
Craig234 said:
The emperor went along, rather powerless not to even if he wanted, is my understanding.
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The idea that the Emperor was nothing more than an unwitting participant to the war is directly contradicted by evidence of his culpability.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
The idea that the Emperor was nothing more than an unwitting participant to the war is directly contradicted by evidence of his culpability.
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They needed the emperor to give the surrender speech at least. He gave it in the royal Japanese dialect that only a very few Japanese could understand.

It was thought that surrendering would've been too much of a shock to the Japanese people, so this way, news of the surrender would spread slowly.
 
Tigerace117 said:
The truth is that there was a major coup attempt to try and continue the war even after both cities were nuked.

A conventional invasion would have been a massive bloodbath.

Starving the Japanese wouldn’t have worked because the fascist dictatorship’s Tripp’s would have happily seized food from the civilian populace to stay in the field.

The Soviets did not have the naval capability to launch a large scale invasion of Japan. Maybe they could have taken Hokkaido, but even that is a stretch.

The truth is that Truman did the right thing.
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The use of "the bomb" saved an estimated 1/2 million American lives and as many as 1 - 1 1/2 million Japanese lives according to experts. The bomb may be a terrible weapon but the bottom line is lives saved versus an all out invasion of Japan.
 
Robertinfremont said:
There is a myth among Democrats of the US that communists fared very well under that system.

Let me be frank with all of them. I saw it in operation in East Berlin. It looked like WW2 just ended and the people were hiding somewhere. If a person was on the street, he had a machine gun and was there to prevent the residents from leaving the city.

It was like that where the Soviets imposed communism.

Today a normal Russian is well dressed, owns a private car and the housing change I do not know of. But life for them is very improved. Communism destroys communities.
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Who can argue with that? It doesn’t argue for fanatical opposition if any progressive movement in Latin America, to the extent that we supported monstrous regimes.
 
Robertinfremont said:
What few recall but I recall well is it was Kennedy that waged war against Castro. I should have got out of the Democrats then and there. I waited until about 1980 to vote for Reagan. best president we ever have had in our country.

Frankly with our power, we should have knocked out Castro in several days. Kennedy knew nothing of how an Army works. Actually in this case, it would have been Marines and they could have wiped Castro off the face of Cuba in a matter of a short time.
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And what would be our justification for doing that? We found have wiped out the tyrants that ruled Guatemala in a short period of time too. But wait! Ooops! We installed them. The story goes that the uprising against st Fidel that was predicted didn’t happen. Face it: Castro was no different than Versingetorix, the Gaul who fought Caesar.
 
Oozlefinch said:
US oil imports from Asia? The US was the largest oil exporting nation on the planet! What in the hell? Were they also worried that Japan might intrude on their industry of exporting ice cubes to Eskimos?
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Indeed. We used to sell lots of oil to Japan until we embargoed them in response to all their atrocities.
 
Craig234 said:
See how the truth can drip out when you squeeze?
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The A-bombs were dropped on military targets.

However, the catastrophic collateral damage was in fact the only justice that many of Japan's victims ever received.


Independent Institute said:
Roosevelt and his subordinates knew they were putting Japan in an untenable position and that the Japanese government might well try to escape the stranglehold by going to war.
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If Japan did not want us to embargo them, they shouldn't have been committing genocide against civilians.


Independent Institute said:
Because American cryptographers had also broken the Japanese naval code, the leaders in Washington knew as well that Japan’s “measures” would include an attack on Pearl Harbor.[4] Yet they withheld this critical information from the commanders in Hawaii, who might have headed off the attack or prepared themselves to defend against it.
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Nonsense.
 
vegas giants said:
In June, the Emperor lost confidence in the chances of achieving a military victory. The Battle of Okinawa was lost, and he learned of the weakness of the Japanese army in China, of the Kwantung Army in Manchuria, of the navy, and of the army defending the Home Islands. The Emperor received a report by Prince Higashikuni from which he concluded that "it was not just the coast defense; the divisions reserved to engage in the decisive battle also did not have sufficient numbers of weapons."[42] According to the Emperor:

I was told that the iron from bomb fragments dropped by the enemy was being used to make shovels. This confirmed my opinion that we were no longer in a position to continue the war.[42]

On June 22, the Emperor summoned the Big Six to a meeting. Unusually, he spoke first: "I desire that concrete plans to end the war, unhampered by existing policy, be speedily studied and that efforts made to implement them."[43] It was agreed to solicit Soviet aid in ending the war. Other neutral nations, such as Switzerland, Sweden, and the Vatican City, were known to be willing to play a role in making peace, but they were so small they were believed unable to do more than deliver the Allies' terms of surrender and Japan's acceptance or rejection. The Japanese hoped that the Soviet Union could be persuaded to act as an agent for Japan in negotiations with the United States and Britain.[44]

Surrender of Japan - Wikipedia
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Japan was free to surrender right then. We would have been happy to accept their surrender. It's not our fault they chose otherwise.



vegas giants said:
Those women and children did not need to die at Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end that war. It was over.
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The war wasn't over. Japan didn't offer to surrender until after both A-bombs had already been dropped.



vegas giants said:
Truman made a political decision not a military one.
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The A-bombs were dropped to reduce Japan's ability to resist our coming invasion. That's a military decision.



vegas giants said:
And it was the wrong one
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I disagree. Not only were the A-bombings the only justice that many of Japan's victims ever received, but their use in 1945 ensured that there would not be a much larger nuclear war between the US and Russia a few years later.



vegas giants said:
MacArthur was against the bomb for Japan.
That was easy
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There is no evidence of MacArthur voicing any opposition to using the A-bombs before they were actually used.



vegas giants said:
No invasion was necessary according to our military leaders
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There is no evidence that any military leader besides Ike opposed using the A-bombs before they were used.

And Ike's opposition was pretty feeble and insignificant.



vegas giants said:
You are claiming every military leader quoted after the war is lying.
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I did not say anything of the sort.

I merely point out the historical fact that they did not oppose the use of the A-bombs before they were actually used.



vegas giants said:
You post no evidence for your claims
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Evidence that there is zero evidence of wartime opposition from our military leaders can be seen by reading your posts and noting your failure to provide such evidence.



vegas giants said:
so they are roundly dismissed
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When you dismiss reality, reality continues to exist.



vegas giants said:
We could have agreed to that before we dropped the bombs and they would have surrendered
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vegas giants said:
Give them what we gave them anyway. And the war would have been over
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vegas giants said:
We could have got all that with just a condition that there will be no war crimes for the imperial family....which we gave them anyway
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Your speculation is mistaken. History shows that Japan was not willing to contemplate surrendering to the US for as long as they had hope that their "Soviet gambit" was viable.

By the time they gave up on their Soviet gambit, both A-bombs had already been dropped.
 
Oozlefinch said:
Yea, who cares if all homosexuals were killed. As well as a lot of minorities, and the wealthy.

Ironically, at the orders of the butcher Doctor from Argentina.

Then there is Argentina. You are aware are you not what actually caused the last Junta to take charge in the first place, right?

In 1976, the nation was collapsing. Embezzlement and corruption of the Isabel Peron administration had destroyed the economy, and the government was under pressure from both the Right and Left for her to step down. Now the military then actually had a good reputation from the people, of stepping in, restoring the government, then stepping back again. They had done it twice before.

But this time, on 6 December 1976 she crossed the line., She signed orders offering blanket immunity to any members or units in the Argentine military who "annihilate subversive elements throughout the country". In other words, she wanted the military to go out and slaughter any who opposed her. That was the final straw, the military stepped in and deposed her.

They refused to do that. But any care to guess at what the death toll would have been of that little tinpot Leftist Dictatorette if she had gotten her way?

But I am done with this, and your attempts to try and derail this into areas that are not relating to the topic at hand.
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Yes, and the dictatorship made Jews kneel before statues of Christ. It murdered pregnant women after they had given birth and gave their babies to childless military families. See the movie “The Official Story,” where a woman slowly realized that the child her military husband brought home to her was the kid of a murdered leftist woman. I had the honor to translate for an Argentine group called “The Grandmothers of the Disappeared,” women who sought out their disappeared daughters’ children. The “humanitarian” Argentine military you describe went way beyond what happened under the government they overthrew.
 
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