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Shoah

Please, FDR was a filthy racist, and the only people who deny it are leftists who can't face reality:



Racism played a huge part in the history of progressivism and it still does today.

I'd also add that we don't know what would have happened if the war had gone differently. When you've already put women and children in concentration camps for no reason other than their ethnicity, it's not a big step to murder them, the way leftists have been doing for over 100 years.

Just a thought. We think of FDR as being enlightened by a standard of today, when in reality he wasn't enlightened as much as we think even by a standard of 1932. The landscape of political division in America centered around class, not race. In a country that was almost exclusively of European origin (save for the 10 to 12 percent who were black and a few percent of other) the giant divisions were issues of importance to the general population: the "rich" and "middle class" vs. "the common working man and his frequent poverty". Such a formulation is invariably one of "populists" vs. better off.

FDR was an old money WASP elite and more or less, a white man's populist. And both old money elites (Ivy League alumni) and populism in America has often (but not always) shared a strong element of anti-Semitism and racism. The threat to the working class white were black workers. The threat to elites weren't blacks BUT highly successful people, new money capitalist businessmen, and those racial minorities that seemed more talented than the old money WASPs that monopolized ivy league schools. Too many Jews, for example, "threatened" the WASP snoots of Harvard, Yale, etc.

So it's not a surprise to me that Jews and Japanese were often not liked by the so-called 'brain trust progressives' of FDR. A federal program for a sharecropper might be a harmless, good, and kind act to this group, but less sympathy was accorded to Jews and Japanese...downright threats to rich, old money, WASP hegemony.
 


This is a nearly 10 hour documentary about the Holocaust, retold by eyewitness accounts. I finally got to see all of it, and it is staggering. I learned a few things I hadnt been previously aware, like the majority of the einstatzgruppen were not just Germans, but rather people from other countries, like Ukrainians and Lithuanians. In fact the Germans were so appalled by the Lithuanian's brutality against Jews that many of their own leaders suffered nervous breakdowns.

The worst part of it was, many of the einstatsgruppen were never brought to justice, even though their names were well known by the authorities.

Did anyone else watch this documentary?


I watched it in 1989. You act like you just discovered a 30 year old documentary.
 
Just a thought. We think of FDR as being enlightened by a standard of today, when in reality he wasn't enlightened as much as we think even by a standard of 1932. The landscape of political division in America centered around class, not race. In a country that was almost exclusively of European origin (save for the 10 to 12 percent who were black and a few percent of other) the giant divisions were issues of importance to the general population: the "rich" and "middle class" vs. "the common working man and his frequent poverty". Such a formulation is invariably one of "populists" vs. better off.

FDR was an old money WASP elite and more or less, a white man's populist. And both old money elites (Ivy League alumni) and populism in America has often (but not always) shared a strong element of anti-Semitism and racism. The threat to the working class white were black workers. The threat to elites weren't blacks BUT highly successful people, new money capitalist businessmen, and those racial minorities that seemed more talented than the old money WASPs that monopolized ivy league schools. Too many Jews, for example, "threatened" the WASP snoots of Harvard, Yale, etc.

So it's not a surprise to me that Jews and Japanese were often not liked by the so-called 'brain trust progressives' of FDR. A federal program for a sharecropper might be a harmless, good, and kind act to this group, but less sympathy was accorded to Jews and Japanese...downright threats to rich, old money, WASP hegemony.

Turning away Jewish refugees was not his personal decision. Jewish refugees had met their quota. By comparison, today our government, and our leader, don't want to let in any refugees. So by our standards of today, Roosevelt looks like a social justice warrior.
 
2.2 million interned prisoners in the USA is already an immense number. It may be that there were briefly, due to the 2 World War, more prisoners in the Greater German Reich. One would have to subtract the prisoners of war from this figure.
In peacetime there has never been such a number of interned people in Germany.
It is especially piquant here that there are many African Americans in your dungeons.
Not that we misunderstand each other. I understand and know the USA very well. You have to differentiate between everything and everything has causes.

However, one can annoy rebellious Americans very well with such numbers. They think they are better than the Germans in Adolf's time.

I can't speak for other Americans, but as a general proposition the Holocaust is taught in our schools (or at least to my older generation) as the greatest inhumanity and crime in the last several centuries of Western Civilization - and (mostly) rightly so. Few hold any animus for the several generations of Germans born after 1930 or 35. Most look at it as history, and believe that today's German is, if anything, more altruistic and meek that the majority of the western world. BUT many of us do expect the modern German and Japanese people to accept the facts, and embrace the perfidy as an object lesson to all peoples...and I think they do.

But I sense that you take it personally and you shouldn't. The Holocaust only ranks second to the mass death visited upon the Soviet people by Lenin and especially Stalin. And whereas Hitler only made specific ethnic groups the target of his extermination, EVERYONE in Russia was eligible for execution or deportation to a camp to, very often, die. None the less, we know the most about the Holocaust and held Germans to a higher standard - how could a modern, highly civilized, educated, and cultured Christian society turn into a monstrous genocidal killing machine?

Upon discovery of the size and extent of German murder at war's end the Western Powers were incredulous (although I'm sure for the Russians it was faux outrage). Half of European Jewry were murdered, along with an equal number of Poles. The vast majority Soviet prisoners of war didn't live to see war's end. The Germans had created an efficient killing machine, recycling corpses for use in production. And, of course, every German said "I knew nothing", and very few apologized for their participation however small.

Those who participated, those who ignored, those "good Germans" who complied are almost all dead. There is no point in expecting anyone, today, to make amends for the evils of others. I have no problem with Germans honoring Wehrmacht graves or honoring brilliant military commanders. I have no problem with people being angry over how the German people were treated at war's end, or their loss of national territory, or the ethnic cleansing of Prussia. I am sure there is a story to be told and the Russians are no less guilty of unspeakable crimes, that we only now know the outline of (including operation keelhaul).

But never forget. Honor your German resistance heroes, honor those Germans who stood against the system and protected Jews, honor those prewar German politicians who understood and warned against Hitler and the Nazi threat, honor the good men and women, the innocent, the weak. BUT NEVER FORGET that the 20th centuries greatest war crime of genocide happened because Germans allow, promoted, and remained loyal to a monster in WWII.
 
I watched it in 1989. You act like you just discovered a 30 year old documentary.

You obviously cant read since I mentioned in the OP that I "finally" saw it in its entirety just a few months ago. And since you are deflecting from the subject matter, it also seems obvious that you dont care about the Holocaust either. I figured as much.
 
I can't speak for other Americans, but as a general proposition the Holocaust is taught in our schools (or at least to my older generation) as the greatest inhumanity and crime in the last several centuries of Western Civilization - and (mostly) rightly so. Few hold any animus for the several generations of Germans born after 1930 or 35. Most look at it as history, and believe that today's German is, if anything, more altruistic and meek that the majority of the western world. BUT many of us do expect the modern German and Japanese people to accept the facts, and embrace the perfidy as an object lesson to all peoples...and I think they do.

But I sense that you take it personally and you shouldn't. The Holocaust only ranks second to the mass death visited upon the Soviet people by Lenin and especially Stalin. And whereas Hitler only made specific ethnic groups the target of his extermination, EVERYONE in Russia was eligible for execution or deportation to a camp to, very often, die. None the less, we know the most about the Holocaust and held Germans to a higher standard - how could a modern, highly civilized, educated, and cultured Christian society turn into a monstrous genocidal killing machine?

Upon discovery of the size and extent of German murder at war's end the Western Powers were incredulous (although I'm sure for the Russians it was faux outrage). Half of European Jewry were murdered, along with an equal number of Poles. The vast majority Soviet prisoners of war didn't live to see war's end. The Germans had created an efficient killing machine, recycling corpses for use in production. And, of course, every German said "I knew nothing", and very few apologized for their participation however small.

Those who participated, those who ignored, those "good Germans" who complied are almost all dead. There is no point in expecting anyone, today, to make amends for the evils of others. I have no problem with Germans honoring Wehrmacht graves or honoring brilliant military commanders. I have no problem with people being angry over how the German people were treated at war's end, or their loss of national territory, or the ethnic cleansing of Prussia. I am sure there is a story to be told and the Russians are no less guilty of unspeakable crimes, that we only now know the outline of (including operation keelhaul).

But never forget. Honor your German resistance heroes, honor those Germans who stood against the system and protected Jews, honor those prewar German politicians who understood and warned against Hitler and the Nazi threat, honor the good men and women, the innocent, the weak. BUT NEVER FORGET that the 20th centuries greatest war crime of genocide happened because Germans allow, promoted, and remained loyal to a monster in WWII.

The National Socialists did not necessarily, from the beginning, have the intention to kill the Jews.
They wanted the Jews out of Germany. It wasn't until the war that the plan evolved.
Hitler said, for example, who thinks about the Armenians today?
He has a point, even today, that many genocides are forgotten. Also the genocide of the Ukrainians, which I already mentioned, although several million dead, is almost unknown in the world.
The genocide of the Jews is understandable if you understand National Socialism.
The ideology at its centre is shaped by the idea of the Volksgemeinschaft, of race, genetics and progress. On the one hand a crime, but on the other hand on such a high level that it is centuries ahead of its time.
Consider the possibilities and the perspective of a Volksgemeinschaft that selects itself to improve itself and to achieve progress.
Under National Socialism, the focus was not on individualism, but on community.
Certainly, the methods were archaic, brutal and inhuman. But I personally don't find, for example, the means of sterilization inhumane, that was also used in other countries.
In all this, one must also consider - war.
For Germany, the war was nothing less than a struggle for survival. It was therefore said quite clearly: it cannot be that the energy is directed towards the care and maintenance of the degenerated. While every day thousands of young healthy people, the future of the people, die at the front.
The brutality, actually comes from the war itself.
This brutality has also been lived excessively by the USA.
You must not forget, Hitler was coined in the trenches of the First World War.
The brutality of reality was Hitler's teacher. The First World War was very brutal for Germany. The German soldiers were in the trenches on the western front much longer than the Allies who were often changed and rotated backwards. Certainly, many people were brutalized and from this brutality grew the brutality of National Socialism, after 15 years.
 
The National Socialists did not necessarily, from the beginning, have the intention to kill the Jews.
They wanted the Jews out of Germany. It wasn't until the war that the plan evolved.
Hitler said, for example, who thinks about the Armenians today?
He has a point, even today, that many genocides are forgotten. Also the genocide of the Ukrainians, which I already mentioned, although several million dead, is almost unknown in the world.
The genocide of the Jews is understandable if you understand National Socialism.
The ideology at its centre is shaped by the idea of the Volksgemeinschaft, of race, genetics and progress. On the one hand a crime, but on the other hand on such a high level that it is centuries ahead of its time.
Consider the possibilities and the perspective of a Volksgemeinschaft that selects itself to improve itself and to achieve progress.
Under National Socialism, the focus was not on individualism, but on community.
Certainly, the methods were archaic, brutal and inhuman. But I personally don't find, for example, the means of sterilization inhumane, that was also used in other countries.
In all this, one must also consider - war.
For Germany, the war was nothing less than a struggle for survival. It was therefore said quite clearly: it cannot be that the energy is directed towards the care and maintenance of the degenerated. While every day thousands of young healthy people, the future of the people, die at the front.
The brutality, actually comes from the war itself.
This brutality has also been lived excessively by the USA.
You must not forget, Hitler was coined in the trenches of the First World War.
The brutality of reality was Hitler's teacher. The First World War was very brutal for Germany. The German soldiers were in the trenches on the western front much longer than the Allies who were often changed and rotated backwards. Certainly, many people were brutalized and from this brutality grew the brutality of National Socialism, after 15 years.

OMFG....

Blaming the slaughter of Jews on Germany getting spanked in WWI is ludicrous.

Both England and France suffered horribly in WWI.

Neither launched pogroms on their Jews.

No. Hitler merely gave an outlet for the antisemitism that has brewed in Germany for centuries. He released the Kraken that sat waiting.
 
The National Socialists did not necessarily, from the beginning, have the intention to kill the Jews.
They wanted the Jews out of Germany. It wasn't until the war that the plan evolved.
Hitler said, for example, who thinks about the Armenians today?
He has a point, even today, that many genocides are forgotten. Also the genocide of the Ukrainians, which I already mentioned, although several million dead, is almost unknown in the world.
The genocide of the Jews is understandable if you understand National Socialism.
The ideology at its centre is shaped by the idea of the Volksgemeinschaft, of race, genetics and progress. On the one hand a crime, but on the other hand on such a high level that it is centuries ahead of its time.
Consider the possibilities and the perspective of a Volksgemeinschaft that selects itself to improve itself and to achieve progress.
Under National Socialism, the focus was not on individualism, but on community.
Certainly, the methods were archaic, brutal and inhuman. But I personally don't find, for example, the means of sterilization inhumane, that was also used in other countries.
In all this, one must also consider - war.
For Germany, the war was nothing less than a struggle for survival. It was therefore said quite clearly: it cannot be that the energy is directed towards the care and maintenance of the degenerated. While every day thousands of young healthy people, the future of the people, die at the front.
The brutality, actually comes from the war itself.
This brutality has also been lived excessively by the USA.
You must not forget, Hitler was coined in the trenches of the First World War.
The brutality of reality was Hitler's teacher. The First World War was very brutal for Germany. The German soldiers were in the trenches on the western front much longer than the Allies who were often changed and rotated backwards. Certainly, many people were brutalized and from this brutality grew the brutality of National Socialism, after 15 years.



National socialism was racist by design. If you were "Aryan", you got socialism, everything was taken care of, your health insurance, your food, your housing.

If you weren't "Aryan", you were a sub-human.

Racism is evil. National socialism is evil.
 
I was reading on the news earlier, Mexico has 60,000 missing persons and 35,000 homicides a year. Mass graves with hundreds of bodies have now been found again. What a mess, what a rotten, decadent society and state. The USA as a law and order power is completely failing. No example for Europe! I think 10,000 Gestapo and Waffen SS men would have solved the problem in 2 years. Order, discipline and cleanliness would be restored.

That's the way it is.

Yeah i mean order, discipline and cleanliness are absolute musts for the up and coming SS perverted murderer around town.
 
The National Socialists did not necessarily, from the beginning, have the intention to kill the Jews.
They wanted the Jews out of Germany. It wasn't until the war that the plan evolved.
Hitler said, for example, who thinks about the Armenians today?
He has a point, even today, that many genocides are forgotten. Also the genocide of the Ukrainians, which I already mentioned, although several million dead, is almost unknown in the world.
The genocide of the Jews is understandable if you understand National Socialism.
The ideology at its centre is shaped by the idea of the Volksgemeinschaft, of race, genetics and progress. On the one hand a crime, but on the other hand on such a high level that it is centuries ahead of its time.
Consider the possibilities and the perspective of a Volksgemeinschaft that selects itself to improve itself and to achieve progress.
Under National Socialism, the focus was not on individualism, but on community.
Certainly, the methods were archaic, brutal and inhuman. But I personally don't find, for example, the means of sterilization inhumane, that was also used in other countries.
In all this, one must also consider - war.
For Germany, the war was nothing less than a struggle for survival. It was therefore said quite clearly: it cannot be that the energy is directed towards the care and maintenance of the degenerated. While every day thousands of young healthy people, the future of the people, die at the front.
The brutality, actually comes from the war itself.
This brutality has also been lived excessively by the USA.
You must not forget, Hitler was coined in the trenches of the First World War.
The brutality of reality was Hitler's teacher. The First World War was very brutal for Germany. The German soldiers were in the trenches on the western front much longer than the Allies who were often changed and rotated backwards. Certainly, many people were brutalized and from this brutality grew the brutality of National Socialism, after 15 years.

Genocide of the jews is understandable in context of the genocidal policies of the nazis? Well there's a brilliant piece of sophistic garbage.


What a pathetic bit of nazi apologetics.

Hitler and his pals represents the very worst that humanity has to offer. Their racial/ethnic hatreds, their arrogant bull**** "aryan" supremacy, and their monumental crimes are a indelible giant stain on humanity. No other genocidal maniacs in history had managed to industrialize murder.

Funny how my grandfather won an iron cross in ww1 along with tens of thousand of other jews fighting along side those "brutalized aryans" who later were more than prepared to eliminate patriotic germans because they were "different".
 
A really nice forum here, you can hold a mirror up to Americans.
They learn about barbarism against the Jews at school, but they have no sense of their own barbarism. I am well informed about the history of some of the towns in my neighbourhood. For example the city of Kassel. I have been to Kassel many times. Schloss Wilhelmshöhe has a beautiful mountain park and a museum, a gallery of old artists. The Hessian State Museum is also worth seeing. Kassel also has a museum for dying culture. With old corpse carriages and similar interior, I have already looked at it.

But Kassel is today in many places also a very ugly city. Once it was one of the most beautiful half-timbered towns in Germany. The cause is quickly named. It was the total destruction that the Americans and the English brought to Kassel.

Almost 90 percent of the city's apartments were destroyed, the entire city centre was completely destroyed. Incinerated, after one week the city was still burning. Tens of thousands of women and children suffocated in the cellars.

Of the previous 230,000 people, only 70,000 lived in the urban area afterwards. The number of dead can be calculated. We're not talking about the military, but about children, women and old people.

Eyewitness accounts speak of inferno, apocalypse and total annihilation. Just look at what you've done! Not in one city, hundreds of cities! You the Americans have exterminated civilians across the country in full awareness of what you are doing. Just like in Kassel, where children in cellars are gassed by firebombs. And therefore it is not for them to judge others! Your MacArthur was so crazy, he even wanted to throw atomic bombs at China later.

I can see the objection now the Germans would have bombed English cities, too. Yes, but we are talking about an excessive orgy of destruction of the civilian population. By people who today imagine their grandfathers were more humane. Bull****! Whether a million German children burned to death in a firestorm no longer interested them like Hitler did when a million Jews were gassed.

So you'd better shut up! Instead of thinking you're humane.
 
By the way, I am aware of this, the American Jews agitate boundlessly and make propaganda.
And it flatters the American, they can feel like good people.
 
OMFG....

Blaming the slaughter of Jews on Germany getting spanked in WWI is ludicrous.

Both England and France suffered horribly in WWI.

Neither launched pogroms on their Jews.

No. Hitler merely gave an outlet for the antisemitism that has brewed in Germany for centuries. He released the Kraken that sat waiting.

Im saving this thread for the holocaust deniers.
 
A really nice forum here, you can hold a mirror up to Americans.
They learn about barbarism against the Jews at school, but they have no sense of their own barbarism.

That's not openly nazi?
 
I’d argue that even the socialism part was disingenuous. Prussian “socialism” Is nothing more than the capitalist social relations being given more heinous power even as they are being integrated into the state. It was full of rapacious greed too.
 
Both England and France suffered horribly in WWI.

Neither launched pogroms on their Jews.

The English and French were well fed, in the First World War. The Germans, because of the blockade, had only rutabagas.
This was also a crime of the USA against the civilian population, with hundreds of thousands dead in Europe.
As written, the soldiers were not often changed in Germany and stood at the front for a long time. The French and English sent their soldiers much more to the rear for recreation.
 
Genocide of the jews is understandable in context of the genocidal policies of the nazis? Well there's a brilliant piece of sophistic garbage.


What a pathetic bit of nazi apologetics.

Hitler and his pals represents the very worst that humanity has to offer. Their racial/ethnic hatreds, their arrogant bull**** "aryan" supremacy, and their monumental crimes are a indelible giant stain on humanity. No other genocidal maniacs in history had managed to industrialize murder.

Funny how my grandfather won an iron cross in ww1 along with tens of thousand of other jews fighting along side those "brutalized aryans" who later were more than prepared to eliminate patriotic germans because they were "different".
 
Many US citizens have a bad Education, regarding history. Propaganda contaminated.
There's nothing I can save. Hard enough to communicate in a foreign language.
 
I won't write for some time. In Germany it's already midnight. Normally my internet is switched off at night. But I would like to give some advice to the conservatives in the USA:

Trumpf is not your man. Trumpf polarizes too much. It makes him very vulnerable, the Jews take advantage of that.
Trumpf is doomed to represent Jewish interests. He's a Jewish servant. Through his son-in-law Kushner the Jews have direct access to him. The Jews in the USA have the power to eliminate Trumpf at any time. Because he has so many enemies.

Jewish interests are mostly not the interests of the USA. Therefore, Trumpf should not be your man. You Americans are no match for the Jewish lobby in your country. You are no match for manipulation, intrigue and agitation!
 
The English and French were well fed, in the First World War. The Germans, because of the blockade, had only rutabagas.
This was also a crime of the USA against the civilian population, with hundreds of thousands dead in Europe.
As written, the soldiers were not often changed in Germany and stood at the front for a long time. The French and English sent their soldiers much more to the rear for recreation.

Hunger is not an excuse for the systematic destruction of a people who did no harm.

Your protestations get more pathetic as the days wear on.
 
A really nice forum here, you can hold a mirror up to Americans.
They learn about barbarism against the Jews at school, but they have no sense of their own barbarism. I am well informed about the history of some of the towns in my neighbourhood. For example the city of Kassel. I have been to Kassel many times. Schloss Wilhelmshöhe has a beautiful mountain park and a museum, a gallery of old artists. The Hessian State Museum is also worth seeing. Kassel also has a museum for dying culture. With old corpse carriages and similar interior, I have already looked at it.

But Kassel is today in many places also a very ugly city. Once it was one of the most beautiful half-timbered towns in Germany. The cause is quickly named. It was the total destruction that the Americans and the English brought to Kassel.

Almost 90 percent of the city's apartments were destroyed, the entire city centre was completely destroyed. Incinerated, after one week the city was still burning. Tens of thousands of women and children suffocated in the cellars.

Of the previous 230,000 people, only 70,000 lived in the urban area afterwards. The number of dead can be calculated. We're not talking about the military, but about children, women and old people.

Eyewitness accounts speak of inferno, apocalypse and total annihilation. Just look at what you've done! Not in one city, hundreds of cities! You the Americans have exterminated civilians across the country in full awareness of what you are doing. Just like in Kassel, where children in cellars are gassed by firebombs. And therefore it is not for them to judge others! Your MacArthur was so crazy, he even wanted to throw atomic bombs at China later.

I can see the objection now the Germans would have bombed English cities, too. Yes, but we are talking about an excessive orgy of destruction of the civilian population. By people who today imagine their grandfathers were more humane. Bull****! Whether a million German children burned to death in a firestorm no longer interested them like Hitler did when a million Jews were gassed.

So you'd better shut up! Instead of thinking you're humane.

More Soviet style Whataboutism....

Innocent men, women and children (Jews, Roma, Slavs or other Untermensch) were rounded up and shot or transported to concentration camps to either be worked to death or slaughtered systematically.

All for not being "Aryan" enough.
 
I won't write for some time. In Germany it's already midnight. Normally my internet is switched off at night. But I would like to give some advice to the conservatives in the USA:

Trumpf is not your man. Trumpf polarizes too much. It makes him very vulnerable, the Jews take advantage of that.
Trumpf is doomed to represent Jewish interests. He's a Jewish servant. Through his son-in-law Kushner the Jews have direct access to him. The Jews in the USA have the power to eliminate Trumpf at any time. Because he has so many enemies.

Jewish interests are mostly not the interests of the USA. Therefore, Trumpf should not be your man. You Americans are no match for the Jewish lobby in your country. You are no match for manipulation, intrigue and agitation!

The ZIONIST OCCUPATION GOVERNMENT is gonna getcha!
 
More Soviet style Whataboutism....

Innocent men, women and children (Jews, Roma, Slavs or other Untermensch) were rounded up and shot or transported to concentration camps to either be worked to death or slaughtered systematically.

All for not being "Aryan" enough.

As written, the USA has systematically destroyed hundreds of cities and residential areas with the intention of killing many millions of civilians, mostly women and children. And I don't need you to write about racism. A country of slave owners who, at the time of Hitler, applied radical racist laws against the black population of the USA. And let's not forget that you almost exterminated the Indians of your country before. You also refused to accept the Jews Hitler wanted to let out. Only the wealthy and the educated Jews you have taken in.
Of the Jews who lived on the territory of the German Reich, over 50% survived the Nazi period. Had they all been able to leave the country, it would have been 100%. In the USA Nazi barbarism was denounced. Then why didn't you take in the persecuted Jews?
The Nazis wanted them out and radically forced all Jews to leave the country, before the war.

Pure hypocrisy! Because you were racists yourselves and your laws against black citizens prove it. You only took Jews in when they gave you advantages. Money and knowledge. Not out of humanity! Besides, you committed mass murder on the German civilian population. Better shut up, if you have such a past.
 
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