Thomas Jefferson

I am asking here for referral to reliable sources concering this issue:

Who, if anyone, ever pointed out at the time to Thomas Jefferson the groteque contradiction of shouting that "All Men Are Created Equal"
while simultaneously being a slave owner, supporting slavery, and opposing women's right to vote?

I mean at the time the document was released?
When it was debated.
Who spoke up, and said,......."UH, hold on. Shouldn't that say all PERSONS are created equal, so it includes blacks and women?"

Yeah he said he had the wolf by the ears. But who called him on his Bullsh**>?

bearcat22 said:

I am asking here for referral to reliable sources concering this issue:

Who, if anyone, ever pointed out at the time to Thomas Jefferson the groteque contradiction of shouting that "All Men Are Created Equal"
while simultaneously being a slave owner, supporting slavery, and opposing women's right to vote?

I mean at the time the document was released?
When it was debated.
Who spoke up, and said,......."UH, hold on. Shouldn't that say all PERSONS are created equal, so it includes blacks and women?"

Yeah he said he had the wolf by the ears. But who called him on his Bullsh**>?

Click to expand...

What does this have to do with gun control? :unsure13:

EDIT: Why don't you go to this wiki page and check some of the source material used by the author, if this is really a "research" project. Those sources might point you in the right direction.

Thomas Jefferson and slavery - Wikipedia

bearcat22 said:

I am asking here for referral to reliable sources concering this issue:

Who, if anyone, ever pointed out at the time to Thomas Jefferson the groteque contradiction of shouting that "All Men Are Created Equal"
while simultaneously being a slave owner, supporting slavery, and opposing women's right to vote?

I mean at the time the document was released?
When it was debated.
Who spoke up, and said,......."UH, hold on. Shouldn't that say all PERSONS are created equal, so it includes blacks and women?"

Yeah he said he had the wolf by the ears. But who called him on his Bullsh**>?

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that when he wrote "all men are created equal" that he meant men, as in males, not females. It was only later that the suffragists horned in and said that men really meant men and women, or all people. Which is fine by me, certainly. But you can't accuse Jefferson of inconsistency on that point. In his original draft, he did include language which blamed King George for inflicting the evils of slavery upon the colonists, but it was edited out at the instance of the southern delegates. Jefferson's position on slavery later changed and he became a committed supporter of it.
(1776) The Deleted Passage of the Declaration of Independence – BlackPast

bearcat22 said:

I am asking here for referral to reliable sources concering this issue:

Who, if anyone, ever pointed out at the time to Thomas Jefferson the groteque contradiction of shouting that "All Men Are Created Equal"
while simultaneously being a slave owner, supporting slavery, and opposing women's right to vote?

I mean at the time the document was released?
When it was debated.
Who spoke up, and said,......."UH, hold on. Shouldn't that say all PERSONS are created equal, so it includes blacks and women?"

Yeah he said he had the wolf by the ears. But who called him on his Bullsh**>?

Click to expand...

Here's the most reliable...and, I daresay, the most knowledgeable...source I can think of when it comes to ANYTHING concerning Thomas Jefferson.

Clay S. Jenkinson The Thomas Jefferson Hour

Captain Adverse said:

What does this have to do with gun control? :unsure13:

EDIT: Why don't you go to this wiki page and check some of the source material used by the author, if this is really a "research" project. Those sources might point you in the right direction.

Thomas Jefferson and slavery - Wikipedia

Click to expand...

Thank you for being so polite, patient, tolerant and helpful to a newcomer Captain Adverse.
Clearly what people say about you is completely false.
If I mistakenly posted in the wrong forum category, I humbly apologize to your greatness.
.
.
.

bearcat22 said:

Thank you for being so polite, patient, tolerant and helpful to a newcomer Captain Adverse.
Clearly what people say about you is completely false.
If I mistakenly posted in the wrong forum category, I humbly apologize to your greatness.
.
.
.

Click to expand...

I graciously accept your clearly sincere and heartfelt apology for your mistake.

Of course, having only joined the Forum within the last 20 days, and having only posted 3 times (two of those at this point in this very thread) you could have little experience with what "People say about" me. :unsure13:

As for my prior response? Perhaps a review of the Forum posting rules might help in the future. I have been dinged for failing to do so myself in the past, so I forgive you.

Meanwhile, my suggestion was valid. That wiki page has several citations to source materials on Jefferson, and may prove useful. :coffeepap:

It is difficult to believe that such an erudite person as Jefferson would make such a glaring mistake.

Unless I misunderstand, what he meant to say, and should have written, was: "No man is born superior to any other by divine right of kings"

Isn't that really what he meant, since he was a hypocrite evil slaveholder?

As for the suffragettes, I'm pretty sure it came long before that, in Wyoming, which refused to join the Union
unless all women got the vote.

Clearly all PERSONS are NOT CREATED EQUAL.

Should certain protections be universal? Yes.
But not priveleges.

Equality of opportunity should not mandate legally enforced equalty of results.
This demeans everyone.

I am acquinted with a twentysomething highly educated black woman who happens to
volunteer in Washington DC with a young black girl (single parent home, father scumbag of course ran away or went to prison).

This woman told me of her surprise and dismay. One weekend, her time with the girl was coming to an end.
She said, "Well, I better go now so you can study for that test you have on Monday"
"Oh," said the girl, "I dont' have to study!"

Pleased, my friend said, "Wow, you know the material that well?
"No, I never study. If I fail the test, they just give it to me again"

After some investigation, my friend discovered this is the literal truth, and completely legal.
ZERO consequences for laziness and failute, only rewards and praise for these "victims".

Ok..............how is that working out so far?

Captain Adverse: I graciously accept your clearly sincere and heartfelt apology for your mistake.

Of course, having only joined the Forum within the last 20 days, and having only posted 3 times (two of those at this point in this very thread) you could have little experience with what "People say about" me.

As for my prior response? Perhaps a review of the Forum posting rules might help in the future. I have been dinged for failing to do so myself in the past, so I forgive you.

Meanwhile, my suggestion was valid. That wiki page has several citations to source materials on Jefferson, and may prove useful.

************


Thank you for your clearly sincere and heartfelt "graciousness" and lack of snide condescenion.

Of course, having been here six years, your record is quite clear. The mods have some interesting opinions.

Since my post was delayed "pending moderation" and the mods did not have such ahole sensibilities as some, clearly they
thought it was not such a huge problem to post it in the gun forum.

Sorry you are having such a rough time. Medication might help.

Mycroft said:

Here's the most reliable...and, I daresay, the most knowledgeable...source I can think of when it comes to ANYTHING concerning Thomas Jefferson.

Clay S. Jenkinson The Thomas Jefferson Hour

Click to expand...

Thank you Mycroft for responding with a clear reliable source instead of attacking me for the minor error of posting in the wrong category
Good to know not everyone here is an arrogant jerk.

bearcat22 said:

Thank you Mycroft for responding with a clear reliable source instead of attacking me for the minor error of posting in the wrong category
Good to know not everyone here is an arrogant jerk.

Click to expand...

LOL!!

If someone hadn't already pointed out your error, I would have...AND I would have still given you that reliable source.

I try to help people out...even with things they are wrong about.

bearcat22 said:

I am asking here for referral to reliable sources concering this issue:

Who, if anyone, ever pointed out at the time to Thomas Jefferson the groteque contradiction of shouting that "All Men Are Created Equal"
while simultaneously being a slave owner, supporting slavery, and opposing women's right to vote?

I mean at the time the document was released?
When it was debated.
Who spoke up, and said,......."UH, hold on. Shouldn't that say all PERSONS are created equal, so it includes blacks and women?"

Yeah he said he had the wolf by the ears. But who called him on his Bullsh**>?

Click to expand...

Back then the word “man” and the rights that came along with it only applied to white adult males who owned land. Times have changed since then, of course, but things were done differently back in that day and age. But as other posters have pointed out, this has nothing to do with the gun debate. Your OP doesn’t belong in this folder.

As I understand it, Mycroft, it's not your job, or his, to point it out.

If you CHOOSE you can point it out to moderator so that it can be moved.

Not attack what is clearly a newcomer's mistake simply for your own Arrogant Pompous Masturbation Pleasure.

Some people on here have a LOOONG history of insulting and harassing others.

DebateChallenge said:

Back then the word “man” and the rights that came along with it only applied to white adult males who owned land. Times have changed since then, of course, but things were done differently back in that day and age. But as other posters have pointed out, this has nothing to do with the gun debate. Your OP doesn’t belong in this folder.

Click to expand...

Perhaps Jefferson was too enamored with the Greeks, who also practiced that type of "democracy".

bearcat22 said:

As I understand it, Mycroft, it's not your job, or his, to point it out.

If you CHOOSE you can point it out to moderator so that it can be moved.

Not attack what is clearly a newcomer's mistake simply for your own Arrogant Pompous Masturbation Pleasure.

Some people on here have a LOOONG history of insulting and harassing others.

Click to expand...

Good to see you've become an expert on policy here with your 11 posts.

bearcat22 said:

I am asking here for referral to reliable sources concering this issue:

Who, if anyone, ever pointed out at the time to Thomas Jefferson the groteque contradiction of shouting that "All Men Are Created Equal"
while simultaneously being a slave owner, supporting slavery, and opposing women's right to vote?

I mean at the time the document was released?
When it was debated.
Who spoke up, and said,......."UH, hold on. Shouldn't that say all PERSONS are created equal, so it includes blacks and women?"

Yeah he said he had the wolf by the ears. But who called him on his Bullsh**>?

Click to expand...

So, you are saying Jefferson should not have included in the Declaration of Independence that all men should be created equal??? Got it...

Taylor, could you please cut-and-paste a quote of me stating anywhere that I am an "expert on policy" or anything else?

No?

Ok, Taylor, clearly YOU are the expert. So you should be able to easily cut-and-paste here anything in the Terms of Service that
suggests that it is not appropriate to ask a moderator to move a thread rather than try to insult and publicly humilate a newcomer just
to fluff up a pathetic veneer of Intolerance, Arrogance and Pompousness?

No, you can't do that?

What a surprise.

Good to see your "veteran" status has not made YOU at all pompous, snide or arrogant.

Your warmth and tolerance are overwhelming, Taylor. Have a nice day.

Cougarbear said:

So, you are saying Jefferson should not have included in the Declaration of Independence that all men should be created equal??? Got it...

Click to expand...

No. It makes more sense to me that he should and could have stated more specifically a refutation of the "divine right of kings".

"No one is born with the inherent right to rule anyone else" would seem to have been in his abilities to compose.

Got it now?

bearcat22 said:

No. It makes more sense to me that he should and could have stated more specifically a refutation of the "divine right of kings".

"No one is born with the inherent right to rule anyone else" would seem to have been in his abilities to compose.

Got it now?

Click to expand...

So, you hate the United States of America. Got it. You know he was what, 33 years old then knowing he could be killed for writing what he did. What they did was utterly fantastic! Establishing a government that pretty much ends a chance at a monarchy. Was it done perfectly? No. But from the beginning of the Declaration of Independence to the establishment of the Constitution, it was a miracle we got what we did. To sit back and complain in your nice comfortable chair about what happened 253 years ago is unbelievably shallow. Trying to re-write history or obliterate it makes no sense unless you want to see the destruction of the U.S. and the rise of a dictatorship. You obviously have no clue about the laws with respect to slavery back then and what Jefferson or Washington could do with their situation. What they did is the best they could at that time period.

I think most of us can figure out what it means that all men are created equal. I don't think we need anything more. It was divinely written and as perfect as it could be.

DebateChallenge said:

Back then the word “man” and the rights that came along with it only applied to white adult males who owned land. Times have changed since then, of course, but things were done differently back in that day and age. But as other posters have pointed out, this has nothing to do with the gun debate. Your OP doesn’t belong in this folder.

Click to expand...

Well, maybe it could belong in this folder as this leads right into the Constitution where the 2nd amendment is. There's the connection As to your comment, how do you know if Jefferson wrote that for only white adult males who owned land? You don't. And, you do know that there were black land owners that had black slaves too, right?

Cougarbear said:

So, you hate the United States of America. Got it. You know he was what, 33 years old then knowing he could be killed for writing what he did. What they did was utterly fantastic! Establishing a government that pretty much ends a chance at a monarchy. Was it done perfectly? No. But from the beginning of the Declaration of Independence to the establishment of the Constitution, it was a miracle we got what we did. To sit back and complain in your nice comfortable chair about what happened 253 years ago is unbelievably shallow. Trying to re-write history or obliterate it makes no sense unless you want to see the destruction of the U.S. and the rise of a dictatorship. You obviously have no clue about the laws with respect to slavery back then and what Jefferson or Washington could do with their situation. What they did is the best they could at that time period.

I think most of us can figure out what it means that all men are created equal. I don't think we need anything more. It was divinely written and as perfect as it could be.

Click to expand...

Cougarbear, could you please cut-and-paste a quote of me saying anywhere that I "hate the United States"?

No? You can't? Then would you like to apologize for that blatant lie and patheticly dishonest attack?

You sound like the person who says, "You don't like Hitler? Then you obviously hate Germany!"

Or maybe, "If you don't love Trump, you must hate America!" I think that is the current version.

I guess I'm just not the genius constitutional scholar you clearly are. It appeared to me to be a document
subject to perpetual revision, even to the point of establishing a monarchy if so voted. But I guess I'm too stupid to read
correctly.

If Jefferson was "only 33" and you use this as an excuse for his mistakes, how do you justify calling that "utterly fantastic"?
Clearly they knew it wasn't, because the Articles of Confederation soon collapsed.

The ENTIRE POINT of our history and government IS to constantly criticize and evolve it.

As for slavery, are you claiming that Jefferson, Washington and all the rest were Prohibitied by, as you say "the laws back then" from REFRAINING
from buying slaves in the first place? Are you claiming that at any time they could not set their slaves free?

No?

maybe you need to go lie down and take a nap, Cougarbear. The adults are talking now.

bearcat22 said:

I am asking here for referral to reliable sources concering this issue:

Who, if anyone, ever pointed out at the time to Thomas Jefferson the groteque contradiction of shouting that "All Men Are Created Equal"
while simultaneously being a slave owner, supporting slavery, and opposing women's right to vote?

I mean at the time the document was released?
When it was debated.
Who spoke up, and said,......."UH, hold on. Shouldn't that say all PERSONS are created equal, so it includes blacks and women?"

Yeah he said he had the wolf by the ears. But who called him on his Bullsh**>?

Click to expand...

God, this has got to be the most hackneyed crap ever. Do some friggin' research before spewing trite LW bull****. Most of the founding fathers who owned slaves were highly conflicted on the topic. But trying to judge them by the social mores of two and a quarter centuries later is a fool's errand.

DebateChallenge said:

Back then the word “man” and the rights that came along with it only applied to white adult males who owned land. Times have changed since then, of course, but things were done differently back in that day and age. But as other posters have pointed out, this has nothing to do with the gun debate. Your OP doesn’t belong in this folder.

Click to expand...

I will explain why it might. One of the current tactics of those who try to undermine the second amendment is by trying to undermine the standing of our founders. they claim Jefferson, et al, were hypocrites, slave owners etc, so by definition,the constitution in general, and the second amendment specifically, should be ignored.

Wow someone showed up with a big chip on their shoulder. If they care I reported most of their posts for what they were. Maybe another site would suit them better.

bearcat22 said:

Good to see your "veteran" status has not made YOU at all pompous, snide or arrogant.

Click to expand...

Thanks, though I'm not sure why one would have anything to do with the others.

bearcat22 said:

Your warmth and tolerance are overwhelming, Taylor. Have a nice day.

Click to expand...

Nice of you to notice. Hope you have a nice day too.

bearcat22 said:

I am asking here for referral to reliable sources concering this issue:

Who, if anyone, ever pointed out at the time to Thomas Jefferson the groteque contradiction of shouting that "All Men Are Created Equal"
while simultaneously being a slave owner, supporting slavery, and opposing women's right to vote?

I mean at the time the document was released?
When it was debated.
Who spoke up, and said,......."UH, hold on. Shouldn't that say all PERSONS are created equal, so it includes blacks and women?"

Yeah he said he had the wolf by the ears. But who called him on his Bullsh**>?

Click to expand...

Take a look at the book Jefferson, by Saul K Padover, 1942; Konecky & Konecky. Jefferson was a widower with many kids and a large farm. He was also gone a great deal and needed people to help him raise his kids and manage his estate. At the time, slaves were about the best way men without much spending money could cope. The same thing happened to my own ancestor: 6 girls, two boys and 400 acres.