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Holocaust: How Guilty are the Poles?

One of the few areas where I've detected some revisionist history sliding into the realm of acceptance is in the Polish collaboration with Nazis in running the six death camps on Polish soil. When I was a kid, the Polish hatred of Jews was commonly known. Today, it seems that is no longer an acceptable argument.

So, the question to address is. What is true?

Well, let's start at the beginning.



What happened? Simple answer: Russians. But, there were also Cassocks, Tatars, Ottomans and Swedes who upset that happy little apple cart. Long story short,



The Jews bounced back, but the Polish nation never really recovered as it was invaded time and again until finally being fully occupied by Russians up until the end of WW1. But, then, **** just got worse.



However, it was more convenient to put lipstick on a pig. So...official reports stated that all the pogroms were "exaggerated," but the powers that be still wrote up a few special rules to protect Jews in Poland. And, for a while, things got better.



But, a few years later, as we all know, things got a whole lot worse.



Really bad timing for that "zenith" thing to occur, because we all know what happened next.

I'm not so sure that it can be claimed that Poland was partly responsible. Hitler's attack on Poland was really fast and he had his SS fully installed in shorty order: the Poles just simply did not have the capacity to fight him. Hitler went right after the Jewish population because of the sanctuary conditions.[/i] Under your terms, the same argument could be made for any fallen country with a Jewish population.
 
I'm not so sure that it can be claimed that Poland was partly responsible. Hitler's attack on Poland was really fast and he had his SS fully installed in shorty order: the Poles just simply did not have the capacity to fight him. Hitler went right after the Jewish population because of the sanctuary conditions.[/i] Under your terms, the same argument could be made for any fallen country with a Jewish population.


Death camps were in only one country: Poland.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Poles_during_the_Holocaust

Okay, it's a wiki and researching further is always prudent in such cases.

I haven't read it all so I assume it does not deal (seeing its heading) with those Poles being quite happy to see the Jews gone. Nor, for that matter, even with those Poles of such disposition that were even in the underground.

Indeed one should avoid any narrative of the whole Polish nation having stood as one in support of the Jews, it didn't.

Nevertheless, if one seeks examples of complicity with the Nazis in their persecution of Jews, Hungary would serve as a far better example. Mainly because, other than Poland, it remained a state and had its own government, said government having allied itself with Germany until things got rougher after Stalingrad.

Of course, real mass deportations didn't take place there until after Hungary tried to do an Italy on Germany and was subsequently occupied, but "the Hungarians" themselves did already kill Jews on a smaller scale before that.

Wrongdoing on the part of the Poles is indisputable, except for Poles. That still doesn't allow for summary condemnation though.

My intention is not to condemn the entire Polish people. But, when I see old documentaries clearly showing polish people piling onto Jews once the Nazis allowed and encouraged such behavior, I find the current whitewashing to be unacceptable. That's all.
 
Death camps were in only one country: Poland.

Yes, and by the time they were set up, there was noting that the Poles could do about it. Hitler hated Poland and it was an easy mark; that's why he started WWII there on the border. And Dachau was the first.
 
My intention is not to condemn the entire Polish people. But, when I see old documentaries clearly showing polish people piling onto Jews once the Nazis allowed and encouraged such behavior, I find the current whitewashing to be unacceptable. That's all.
I have no problem with any of that, in history there's rarely anything that's cut'n dried (black or white).
 
.............and Auschwitz is a mere 430 or so kms from Budapest. That's no distance.

In fact it was that near or almost that near to all of the other locations you mentioned.

The Germans weren't able to access the bulk of the Hungarian Jewish population until 1944 whereas construction of the concentration camps had begun years earlier. Even so, Poland is closer to Hungary than say France.
 
The Germans weren't able to access the bulk of the Hungarian Jewish population until 1944 whereas construction of the concentration camps had begun years earlier. Even so, Poland is closer to Hungary than say France.

I wonder how much help the Polish people gave the Germans during death camp construction and burying places like Sobibor and Treblinka under trees when the gig was up.
 
I wonder how much help the Polish people gave the Germans during death camp construction and burying places like Sobibor and Treblinka under trees when the gig was up.

Are you trying to prove some kind of point?

I've already stated what's been said a thousand times by now. Yes, some Polish people willingly helped the Nazis. Many more tried to stop them. The vast majority of the Polish population, like most occupied countries, just tried to survive and did nothing to help or stop the Germans.
 
Are you trying to prove some kind of point?

I've already stated what's been said a thousand times by now. Yes, some Polish people willingly helped the Nazis. Many more tried to stop them. The vast majority of the Polish population, like most occupied countries, just tried to survive and did nothing to help or stop the Germans.

I'd rewrite that somewhat.

Yes, some Polish people tried to stop the Nazis. Many more willingly helped them. The vast majority of the Polish population, like most occupied countries, just tried to survive and did nothing to help or stop the Germans.
 
I'd rewrite that somewhat.

Yes, some Polish people tried to stop the Nazis. Many more willingly helped them. The vast majority of the Polish population, like most occupied countries, just tried to survive and did nothing to help or stop the Germans.

The Polish resistance was the largest in Europe. Where's your proof that more Poles helped the Nazis than fought them?
 
The Polish resistance was the largest in Europe. Where's your proof that more Poles helped the Nazis than fought them?

6 death camps do not lie
 
6 death camps do not lie

Why is it so hard for you to understand the death camps were placed there because it was closest to the the Jewish populations?

Don't give me "but Budapest!". Nazis did not have full access to seize Hungarian Jews until 1944. Even so, there were far more Jews in Poland and the USSR than Hungary.
 
Why is it so hard for you to understand the death camps were placed there because it was closest to the the Jewish populations?

Don't give me "but Budapest!". Nazis did not have full access to seize Hungarian Jews until 1944. Even so, there were far more Jews in Poland and the USSR than Hungary.

The bill was proposed by the country’s ruling Law and Justice party (PiS) and calls for up to three years in prison or a fine for accusing the Polish state or people of involvement or responsibility for the Nazi occupation during World War II. The proposed legislation has raised concerns among critics about how the Polish state will decide what it considers to be facts. Lawmakers in Israel have pointed to historical records citing complicity by some Poles in the activities of the Nazi regime. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called it an “attempt to rewrite history.”

Poland'''s Holocaust Law: What You Need To Know | Time
 
I have been seriously searching for something that lets me cut the Poles some slack on this. After all, I probably owe it to some of my ancestors to do that. But, dammit! Every time I look into it, I see stuff like this.

From the guy who pushed the new law: the "don't you dare blame us for the Jew thing" law that I mentioned above.

Polish president slammed for anti-Semitic remarks

The firestorm erupted after an Israeli journalist asked Morawiecki if he could be charged in Poland for telling a story about how his parents’ families were dimed out to the Nazis by their Polish neighbors.

“Of course it’s not going to be punishable, not going to be seen as criminal, to say that there were Polish perpetrators, as there were Jewish perpetrators, as there were Russian perpetrators, as there were Ukrainian, not only German perpetrators,” Morawiecki replied.

Of course Poles "dimed out" Jews to the Nazis. In the documentary I saw about Treblinka, one of the two survivors reported how he was passing as Aryan until one of the Polish people he knew as a child ratted him out as a Jew to the Nazis.

So, I'm not buying this "they only did it to survive" bull****. There was no reason to rat this guy out other than pure antisemitism and hate on the Polish guy's side.
 
One of the few areas where I've detected some revisionist history sliding into the realm of acceptance is in the Polish collaboration with Nazis in running the six death camps on Polish soil. When I was a kid, the Polish hatred of Jews was commonly known. Today, it seems that is no longer an acceptable argument.

So, the question to address is. What is true?

Well, let's start at the beginning.



What happened? Simple answer: Russians. But, there were also Cassocks, Tatars, Ottomans and Swedes who upset that happy little apple cart. Long story short,



The Jews bounced back, but the Polish nation never really recovered as it was invaded time and again until finally being fully occupied by Russians up until the end of WW1. But, then, **** just got worse.



However, it was more convenient to put lipstick on a pig. So...official reports stated that all the pogroms were "exaggerated," but the powers that be still wrote up a few special rules to protect Jews in Poland. And, for a while, things got better.



But, a few years later, as we all know, things got a whole lot worse.



Really bad timing for that "zenith" thing to occur, because we all know what happened next.

@ Simple answer: "Russians"

you are 100% right. Muscovite Asiatic occupation of stopped natural development of European civilization in Polish - Belarusian (GDL) confederation. it took place just at beginning industrialization. ps i think you ´d write about what kind of backward hell was Muscovy in 19c. on order to make your point more clear for other forum members


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The Polish resistance was the largest in Europe. Where's your proof that more Poles helped the Nazis than fought them?

While the resistance was indeed big, more Polish Jews died than compared to the Jewish diaspora in other countries. Its definitely a story of contrasts.
 
I have been seriously searching for something that lets me cut the Poles some slack on this. After all, I probably owe it to some of my ancestors to do that. But, dammit! Every time I look into it, I see stuff like this.

From the guy who pushed the new law: the "don't you dare blame us for the Jew thing" law that I mentioned above.

Polish president slammed for anti-Semitic remarks



Of course Poles "dimed out" Jews to the Nazis. In the documentary I saw about Treblinka, one of the two survivors reported how he was passing as Aryan until one of the Polish people he knew as a child ratted him out as a Jew to the Nazis.

So, I'm not buying this "they only did it to survive" bull****. There was no reason to rat this guy out other than pure antisemitism and hate on the Polish guy's side.
Well, is your OP actually a question to which you want answers, or are you working from the getgo on the assumption that the Poles are guilty as hell and you're just seeking confirmation?

Frankly with your repeated item of so many death camps in Poland having been as repeatedly explained, I can't help but wonder.

Note that I'm not disputing anti-semitism to have existed in Poland and not that there are various cases of Poles having betrayed Jews to the Nazis.

What the PiS is currently attempting by way of blotting out any history of those times altogether, really has precious little to do with anything here.
 
While the resistance was indeed big, more Polish Jews died than compared to the Jewish diaspora in other countries. Its definitely a story of contrasts.
Well, there were more Jews in Poland than there were anywhere else in Europe. And due to the somewhat unique occupation status that the Nazis imposed, far more easily accessible from the early days of the war.

But that wasn't the reason for the Nazis building the death camps in Poland. They'd still have built them there if the bulk of European Jews had lived in France.

Geographical advantage dictating the logistics.
 
Well, is your OP actually a question to which you want answers, or are you working from the getgo on the assumption that the Poles are guilty as hell and you're just seeking confirmation?

Frankly with your repeated item of so many death camps in Poland having been as repeatedly explained, I can't help but wonder.

Note that I'm not disputing anti-semitism to have existed in Poland and not that there are various cases of Poles having betrayed Jews to the Nazis.

What the PiS is currently attempting by way of blotting out any history of those times altogether, really has precious little to do with anything here.

My op is definitely an attack on the new law, which I consider a whitewash. As for Polish people in general, I have no opinion. Some are fine people. Some hate Jews for being Jewish. It is what it is.
 
Well, there were more Jews in Poland than there were anywhere else in Europe. And due to the somewhat unique occupation status that the Nazis imposed, far more easily accessible from the early days of the war.

But that wasn't the reason for the Nazis building the death camps in Poland. They'd still have built them there if the bulk of European Jews had lived in France.

Geographical advantage dictating the logistics.

No one is arguing that bit, of course Poland had the largest Jewish population, but if you go by percentage killed, Poland's Jews hit a horrific high of almost 90% death rates, only Lithuania beats them. Not even Germany's Jewish population sustained a murder rate that high (only 33% of German Jews were killed).

The only other country that sustained such a high percentage was Yugoslavia, nearly matching that of Poland at around 87%. And you had vehement pro-Nazi collaborators active in that country like the Ustashe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_during_World_War_II
 
No one is arguing that bit, of course Poland had the largest Jewish population, but if you go by percentage killed, Poland's Jews hit a horrific high of almost 90% death rates, only Lithuania beats them. Not even Germany's Jewish population sustained a murder rate that high (only 33% of German Jews were killed).

The only other country that sustained such a high percentage was Yugoslavia, nearly matching that of Poland at around 87%. And you had vehement pro-Nazi collaborators active in that country like the Ustashe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_during_World_War_II
A German census of 1933 lists around half a million German Jews (living in Germany) and half of them managed to leave/flee/escape up til 1939.

The Nazis didn't put the lid on this until 1939.

Of the remaining 250 thou' or so, around 165,000 (66 pct) found their end in the ovens of Poland.
 
My op is definitely an attack on the new law, which I consider a whitewash. As for Polish people in general, I have no opinion. Some are fine people. Some hate Jews for being Jewish. It is what it is.
I'll readily join in on the new Polish law, it distorts history altogether.
 
A German census of 1933 lists around half a million German Jews (living in Germany) and half of them managed to leave/flee/escape up til 1939.

The Nazis didn't put the lid on this until 1939.

Of the remaining 250 thou' or so, around 165,000 (66 pct) found their end in the ovens of Poland.

66% is still less than 88% though. Polish collaborators are not a well researched subject yet.
 
A lot of this also is somewhat to blame indirectly upon the Jews themselves. And do not think I am "victim blaming" at all in this.

And to see this, you simply have to look at the Ghettos.

A ghetto was a region or part of a city set aside to house a minority, most of the time in Europe it was for Jews. And depending upon the region, the ghettos served 2 purposes. In some areas, it was to segregate and imprison the Jews so they would be kept away from the rest of society. We saw this in Poland for example.

But in other cases (such as in Venice), the ghetto was largely self-imposed. The Jews wanted an area where their own culture and laws would be dominant over those of the rest of the city. And even in the 19th century when most laws requiring Jews to remain in the ghetto were removed, most made the conscious choice to remain there.

And ultimately, this set them apart from the rest of their society. They were viewed in the urban areas as not being "Polish", or "German", but being a completely different group living inside yet apart from their culture.

And the European ghettos really were almost a country into themselves. They restricted who was allowed to live in them, and had their own government council, their own police forces, and their own court systems. Completely separated from that of the city and country they were located in.

In England, you had ghettos until the Commonwealth era (1650's). Oliver Cromwell opposed ghettos, and abolished them. The Jews in England were forced to integrate into the rest of society, and many from the rest of Europe who wanted to leave the ghettos moved to England because of this. And when colonization of the Americas started, the colonies (and later the US) followed this same custom. Jews were simply part of our society, and not seen as separate people inside our cities or country.

We are seeing a similar attempt in modern Europe. Muslims are demanding areas be set aside for them, where they can live with their own "people", following their own Sharia Law. Ultimately, this is yet again an attempt by a people to ghettoize themselves.

I oppose this not because of intolerance, but because I have seen the result many times throughout history. When a group segregates themselves, long term the result is rarely a good one. If the Muslim Ghettos are allowed to exist, ultimately the result will be the same as the Jewish ghettos in the 1940's. A people set apart, which others will fear and distrust because they are not really people of the country they reside in.
 
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