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The Migration of South to North

Buzz62 said:
Islam...one of 'The Dirty Three', as I call them. As a young man in Collage, I took philosophy as a minor. I found it interesting and challenging. But it pushed me to understand the absurdity of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. However I was, and still am to this day, unwilling or unable to shake this belief in the existence of a supreme being. As a result, I formed my own beliefs which I hold to.
The Dirty Three, IMO, are not based on matters of the spirit but rather they are concerned with matters of power. Which nicely and simplistically explains why they are constantly at each other's throats. Today Islam is being blamed for all sorts of nasty atrocities. But this is a veil to hide the real problem. Human greed. The Middle East and much of Africa are lead by power mongering little tyrants who hide behind this veil like cowards. When one is deposed, another, just as power hungry and cowardly, takes his place.
Knowing the historical blood bath that Christianity and Islam have waged over the centuries, is it wise to allow hundreds of thousands of people from the Islamic regions, into western civilization?
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I'm agnostic. Because Judaism is not a proselytizing religion, I don't think it belongs in the same violence prone category as Christianity or Islam. I strongly suggest you read the article I linked and get back to me. It's not very long, and it's well known.
 
Jack Hays said:
I'm agnostic. Because Judaism is not a proselytizing religion, I don't think it belongs in the same violence prone category as Christianity or Islam. I strongly suggest you read the article I linked and get back to me. It's not very long, and it's well known.
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I would agree that Judaism is a bit of a special case among the 3 Abrahamic religions, but I still think it's primarily based on power instead of matters of the soul.
I will re-read you articles and see if I missed anything.
 
Buzz62 said:
In 1886 the inscription on the Statue of Liberty was relevant. Today there are over 20,000 illegals in the USA. Everyone's family came from somewhere. My grandfather came from Slovakia, worked 10 years before he could afford to by a small farm and send for his wife and kids. When he came, he went to where Canada needed people, Alberta. Today's migrants show up, claim asylum, and go on welfare in big cities. Toronto is full of baby-making machines. My own kids have been mugged twice by these poor refugees. I can only assume its worse in the States.
My daughter was just in San Francisco. She said the streets are littered with homeless and junkies and cars with the windows smashed out. Italy is now turning Soros refugee boats away. Western Europe is a freaking mess. Is that what you want for the USA? No-Go zones where the police don't even want to enter? Should the US let this caravan into the nation, more will follow. I understand there's 2 more in the making as a follow-up. Just what do you propose the US do with all these people? And at what cost?
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Sorry, but you shift from item to item, cafeteria-style. You said you didn't want poor "wretched refuse" people coming to the US, then I point out that they can be here legally if they are granted asylum, which is a requirement under US law. You ignore the fact that immigrant crime in the US is lower than native crime, that car break-ins and drug abuse are a domestic not immigrant problem in SF, and throw in Soros for desert. Nice banquet of resentments of modern life. What you say, was said long before and long after 1886 and echoes a proud tradition of the "Know Nothings" party of bygone times and the atmosphere that led to the lynching of several Italians in New Orleans.
 
Nickyjo said:
Sorry, but you shift from item to item, cafeteria-style. You said you didn't want poor "wretched refuse" people coming to the US, then I point out that they can be here legally if they are granted asylum, which is a requirement under US law. You ignore the fact that immigrant crime in the US is lower than native crime, that car break-ins and drug abuse are a domestic not immigrant problem in SF, and throw in Soros for desert. Nice banquet of resentments of modern life. What you say, was said long before and long after 1886 and echoes a proud tradition of the "Know Nothings" party of bygone times and the atmosphere that led to the lynching of several Italians in New Orleans.
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I don't need a morality lesson I need a real reason for agreeing that these caravan people should be granted asylum.
Were it me in charge, I'd have them all line up at the official border crossing, and brought in 1 by 1 for an interview and decision. Those who are deemed to be a net benefit to the nation are granted asylum. Those who do not, have a long walk ahead of them. And I don't see what is wrong with that.
 
Buzz62 said:
Hi all,

I've begun this thread here because to me, it seemed like the appropriate place, and...I'm hoping to avoid input from the loud and wildly partisan. I'm really quite curious about how level-headed people feel and think about the current mass migrations from the southern hemisphere to the northern in both Europe and the Americas. We can, I hope, start with this;

Historically...Europe has either been fighting with the Arab and African nations, or have been a serious imposition on the people of those 2 regions.
And historically...Europe and North America have been doing about the same to South America.
In both cases, a good argument can be made that the northern peoples helped create the circumstances that exist in the southern lands, but is this idea completely correct? Is that all there is to it? I'm not sure.

North America was, for the most part and originally, colonized primarily by the English and the French.
South America was, for the most part and originally, colonized by the Spanish and the Portuguese.
Both had, shall we say, slightly different reasons and methods for this colonization.
The northern nations produced huge advances in technology and prospered well. They enjoy a solid, yet imperfect, democracy and a strong sense of law and order. While there has always been a criminal element, it too has been conducted, for the most part, with a sort of begrudging respect for democracy and the law. For the most part...
The southern nations produced exploding populations and leaderships that are either ineffective or just openly corupt to the core. Oh and they produced allot of illegal drugs. They do not really display much in the way of respect for democracy or the law.
QUESTION: Do the cultures of the Spanish and the Portuguese, have a real influence of the cultures and societies built in South America? And if they do, which I suspect, then that poses a rather obvious question which is;
Why would the northern nations even want these people in their societies?
A very crass and tough question but, one that I think needs asking right about now.

Europe is the seed of the caucasian race of humans. They brought the world the Renaissance, modern science and technology, exploration and colonization. They too have an inherent respect for democracy, and law and order.
The Arab nations and African nations produced dictators and poverty. Desperate poverty. They also produced what appears to be absolute chaos.
QUESTION: To what degree can European influence be blamed for the state of affairs in Arabia and Africa?
Why should Europe allow hundreds of thousands of people from these regions, to migrate freely to Europe?

In both cases, are the northern populations "wise" to allow and/or invite this migration and how will it alter the societies, if these southern peoples are allowed to do so? Will it be "better"? Will there be an effect similar to that of what we now see in their homelands?

A final and parting thought on Africa...in particular. The northern peoples are currently in the process of trying to deny the African (and others) peoples a clear path to industrialization. The excuse used is climate change. Is this wise...at all???
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There is corruption and flawed democracies in eastern Europe. Why do you post as if only white people understand freedom and democracy? White people have had a lot of tyranny and authoritarianism in their history, and in Europe. Other races are capable of of wanting and understandinh western freedom.
 
Buzz62 said:
I don't need a morality lesson I need a real reason for agreeing that these caravan people should be granted asylum.
Were it me in charge, I'd have them all line up at the official border crossing, and brought in 1 by 1 for an interview and decision. Those who are deemed to be a net benefit to the nation are granted asylum. Those who do not, have a long walk ahead of them. And I don't see what is wrong with that.
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Finally, we are in agreement! DP wouldn't accept my delayed edits of my previous message, where I tried to answer your question about what we could do. What I suggested is some form of camp where movement is restricted,and where people can be examined as to the validity of their asylum claim. If this is done per US law and international standards, as has happened in other circumstances where large numbers of people have fled, things can work. As a practical matter spending resources to do this efficiently can deter other people or groups from presenting frivolous claims, as word gets around quickly.

The US is torn between on the one hand, Trump's anti-immigrant message that spills over to refugees and has already caused two major screw ups -- at airports last year and on the border this year -- and our legal obligations and history of justice and generosity on the other. The problem is complex and maddening, but addressable, but on some topics the president can't help himself. I believe he sees dividing us as a political strategy, but who am I to argue with his success?
 
SheWolf said:
There is corruption and flawed democracies in eastern Europe. Why do you post as if only white people understand freedom and democracy? White people have had a lot of tyranny and authoritarianism in their history, and in Europe. Other races are capable of of wanting and understandinh western freedom.
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No democracy is perfect. Hell the American democracy has been sold to the highest bidder. So ya...there's that...
Did I say only white people understand freedom and democracy? No I did not. They just happen to have both more available to them, than do other nations.
However Japan has freedom and democracy of sorts. so do many other nations. Perhaps we should forward the refugees to those places...huh?
Yes other races are indeed quite capable of wanting and understanding western freedom. The Arab and African nations, along with much of Central and South America, just seem to have an issue implementing them.
 
Nickyjo said:
Finally, we are in agreement! DP wouldn't accept my delayed edits of my previous message, where I tried to answer your question about what we could do. What I suggested is some form of camp where movement is restricted,and where people can be examined as to the validity of their asylum claim. If this is done per US law and international standards, as has happened in other circumstances where large numbers of people have fled, things can work. As a practical matter spending resources to do this efficiently can deter other people or groups from presenting frivolous claims, as word gets around quickly.

The US is torn between on the one hand, Trump's anti-immigrant message that spills over to refugees and has already caused two major screw ups -- at airports last year and on the border this year -- and our legal obligations and history of justice and generosity on the other. The problem is complex and maddening, but addressable, but on some topics the president can't help himself. I believe he sees dividing us as a political strategy, but who am I to argue with his success?
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As long as this camp is outside the border and they enter 1 at a time, we're good.
By 'anti-immigrant message' I assume you mean his ban on migrants from certain Muslim nations? I'm not sure that spills over to this caravan thing but...
You think the USA has a history of justice and generosity? Interesting.
 
Buzz62 said:
As long as this camp is outside the border and they enter 1 at a time, we're good.
By 'anti-immigrant message' I assume you mean his ban on migrants from certain Muslim nations? I'm not sure that spills over to this caravan thing but...
You think the USA has a history of justice and generosity? Interesting.
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His anti-immigrant message started with his attacks on Mexican illegals, plan to ban all Muslims, untruths about overseas vetting of refugees, etc. Our generosity and sense of justice trumped his moves and he backed down and/or modified his plans.
 
Nickyjo said:
His anti-immigrant message started with his attacks on Mexican illegals, plan to ban all Muslims, untruths about overseas vetting of refugees, etc. Our generosity and sense of justice trumped his moves and he backed down and/or modified his plans.
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Generous and just USA...man Nicky...that's scary.
Don't you yet know that the USofA does NOTHING for free? Have you ever even heard of the World Bank and/or the IMF?
 
Buzz62 said:
Generous and just USA...man Nicky...that's scary.
Don't you yet know that the USofA does NOTHING for free? Have you ever even heard of the World Bank and/or the IMF?
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I a not a flag waiver. But I remember being in a meeting of several nationalities, where I made some contribution suggesting that we should do this and so about some problem. I remember a Belgian leftist commenting, "Ah the American obsession with fairness." Couldn't have been more flattered to be an American. Yes, our foreign aid is minimal compared to other nations, and usually (at least when I studied the issue years ago) involves loans with interest to buy US goods, so that the joke was the check never left the country. We have also been brutally undemocratic. But the outrage from other countries from concerns about Vietnam to Latin America to Trump's love affair with dictators, most disgracefully with NK, is about us not being true to ourselves, to the better angels of our nature Lincoln spoke of.

So yes, our sense of decency, plus sane republicans, trump Trump at times.
 
Buzz62 said:
No democracy is perfect. Hell the American democracy has been sold to the highest bidder. So ya...there's that...
Did I say only white people understand freedom and democracy? No I did not. They just happen to have both more available to them, than do other nations.
However Japan has freedom and democracy of sorts. so do many other nations. Perhaps we should forward the refugees to those places...huh?
Yes other races are indeed quite capable of wanting and understanding western freedom. The Arab and African nations, along with much of Central and South America, just seem to have an issue implementing them.
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You're not making any sense other than you don't want immigrants or refugees here. That is the only thing you are clearly communicating.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Don't need to be a veteran to know that there is going to be lots of work to do on the border securing it. And I already answered your questions. That you didn't like the answer because it doesn't support your "theory" is not my problem.
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Not really.

There are actually fairly few points that can be used to cross the border by more than a handful of people at a time. The vast majority of illegal immigration is not by "border hoppers", but by those who cross the border legally than overstay their visa.

And the system in place by the coyotes can only handle a low number of people at a time. Generally they drop them off in a remote area near the border, then they walk across to a prearranged pick-up point where they get into civilian vehicles for transport to another point.

A large mass of people? They will have to cross at a major border point, like Juarez. Where they can try to break through then immediately blend into a large urban area, like El Paso. If they try to break through at a place like Antelope Wells or Ojinaga, then they are pretty much in the middle of nowhere. And easily collected up on the US side.

One thing about the US-Mexico border, it is one of the most inhospitable on the planet. Even with illegal immigration as it is, it is estimated that as many as 500 die each year trying to cross. Mostly abandoned in the desert by their coyotes, with no food or water and 50-100 miles from any kind of habitation.

Myself, I mostly see this caravan as even more proof that Mexico has become a failed state. They are hemorrhaging people in ever increasing numbers to the US, over 10,000 a year are killed in their internal drug war, hundreds of politicians have been killed who oppose the drug cartels, and mass graves have been found of migrants who were used to transport drugs into the US then killed.

The very fact that they could not stop this massive flood of immigrants is yet more proof that they are failing their own people.

I know that when I lived on the border, most of the news I saw sickened me. Drug treatment hospitals in Juarez attacked, decapitated bodies hung from overpasses so common they were reported in morning traffic reports, dead bodies found in the desert were literally every day events. And with the cartels starting to move into human trafficking in addition to drugs, things are only getting worse.

Not that long ago, a female reporter in Mexico broke a story where an influential businessman in Mexico was involved in prostitution and child pornography. She only went public on the story when local police refused to get involved. Shortly after breaking the story, she was arrested in another state and brought to the state where the businessman lived in, the entire time the officers transporting her threatened to rape and kill her.

She was able to get out on bail, but another newspaper shortly afterwards revealed taped conversations between the businessman and the Governor where they conspired to have her kidnapped. And were planning on having her beaten and raped, possibly even killed if she did not agree to recant the story.

Of course the reporter (Lydia Cacho) tried to bring the Governor to court over this. But the Mexican Supreme Court determined that she had no case and dismissed her charges.

That is life in Mexico. And most of these migrants are from Guatemala and Honduras. Then people wonder why I consider most of Latin America to be a series of failed states.
 
Nickyjo said:
I a not a flag waiver. But I remember being in a meeting of several nationalities, where I made some contribution suggesting that we should do this and so about some problem. I remember a Belgian leftist commenting, "Ah the American obsession with fairness." Couldn't have been more flattered to be an American. Yes, our foreign aid is minimal compared to other nations, and usually (at least when I studied the issue years ago) involves loans with interest to buy US goods, so that the joke was the check never left the country. We have also been brutally undemocratic. But the outrage from other countries from concerns about Vietnam to Latin America to Trump's love affair with dictators, most disgracefully with NK, is about us not being true to ourselves, to the better angels of our nature Lincoln spoke of.

So yes, our sense of decency, plus sane republicans, trump Trump at times.
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Perhaps. But I think what's happening with NK is a good thing.
I'm always confused by those who think otherwise.
 
SheWolf said:
You're not making any sense other than you don't want immigrants or refugees here. That is the only thing you are clearly communicating.
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Try reading slllooowwweeerrr...
 
Buzz62 said:
Perhaps. But I think what's happening with NK is a good thing.
I'm always confused by those who think otherwise.
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If Trump can deal with NK, fine. If he ignores the practices of one of the most brutal dictators, not so fine.
 
Nickyjo said:
If Trump can deal with NK, fine. If he ignores the practices of one of the most brutal dictators, not so fine.
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Why should he care? Did the USA care when dealing with Stalin? No.
How about the Saudis? No.
China? No.

They care when it suits them, and don't when it does not.
International diplomacy is not for the faint of heart...trust me...I do know of what I speak.
 
Buzz62 said:
Why should he care? Did the USA care when dealing with Stalin? No.
How about the Saudis? No.
China? No.

They care when it suits them, and don't when it does not.
International diplomacy is not for the faint of heart...trust me...I do know of what I speak.
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Am not saying he shouldn't deal. Just saying he shouldn't overlook what the guy does. We are big enough, strong enough to stand for something. We criticized practices of the Soviet Union even as we dealt with them.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Take it as support Buzz.
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OK Cool.
And with that said...I would value your input on this. You and I don't always see eye-to-eye, but I do respect your opinions.
 
Buzz62 said:
OK Cool.
And with that said...I would value your input on this. You and I don't always see eye-to-eye, but I do respect your opinions.
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Thank You.

There is a lot going on in your opening post and it is poorly focused which is why I avoided it but let me see what I can do:

The West is deep into spiritual crisis and is melting down at the same time that the dreams of the globalists are about to crash into a global depression and the complete collapse of the economies all around the globe. We are going to see humans doing what ever they can to migrate to places that are better than where they are, they will be like swarming locust destroying anyplace that is better than the rest......until the people in the better places come to their senses and get to ENOUGH! At that point migrants might just get shot on sight. Europe is already a lost cause thanks to Merkel, America could get smart right now and seal the borders and then do sensible immigration but we almost certainly will not. Europe and America will be ravished by depression and violent chaos until we install a brutal near police state, then we will have only the depression to deal with. All of the West will be wrecked, the best places left with be in the East...the New Chinese Empire and their regional friends, and they will not be taking migrants...they were always too bright to let the locust destroy everything, plus the Chinese as the lone superpower will dictate terms to their advantage, the economy will be better there.

As for stuff like the claims of victimization from the Africans from the ancient history of colonization nobody is going to give a ****, those stories will stop working.

As for the timeline IDK...I had the global depression coming about 2027 but I dont think it is going to wait that long anymore, the collapse is ramping up faster than I expected. Also the Chinese are ramping up their military getting ready to run over us already, which has happened because they sense the weakness, something that Putin helped a lot to bring to awareness. There is going to be a military conflict between China and America that America will almost certainly lose, but I dont know when, though I dont think it will be before 2030.
 
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