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Holocaust vs Limbergh's America First Efforts

PoS said:
The US didnt intervene, Germany declared war on us. Secondly, even if America didnt get involved, the Germans sealed their fate when they attacked the USSR- the Russians had endless hordes of soldiers and tanks, and they would have won eventually.
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You clearly did not read one word about the "Lend Lease" program.
 
calamity said:
You clearly did not read one word about the "Lend Lease" program.
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LL wasnt a factor until 1944-45, thats when most of the stuff being sent over made it to the USSR. By that time the Russians had already beaten back the Germans on their own. During the pivotal years of 41 and 42, the Soviets had no help. One must remember that by the time the Allies invaded Normandy, most of the German forces were already killed by the Russians.
 
PoS said:
LL wasnt a factor until 1944-45, thats when most of the stuff being sent over made it to the USSR. By that time the Russians had already beaten back the Germans on their own. During the pivotal years of 41 and 42, the Soviets had no help.
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Lend lease was about giving England 50 old destroyers for their half of the convoy operations.
 
Tom Horn said:
Lend lease was about giving England 50 old destroyers for their half of the convoy operations.
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LL helped England, thats for sure, but as for Russia, the allies gave her very little, especially during the early years of the war.
 
And the PQ convoys were all about shipping fuel, tanks, planes and trucks.
 
So the years that PQ-12 through PQ-24 were pivitol. Had Germany taken Murmansk as designed, the fighting would’ve been over.
 
Tom Horn said:
And the PQ convoys were all about shipping fuel, tanks, planes and trucks.
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Well the tanks and aircraft sent to Russia were pretty much obsolete- the UK had her own war to fight in North Africa during that time and the US was still gearing up. The trucks would have made some difference with regards to extending Russian supply lines, but since they were on the defensive until 1943, it wouldnt have made much difference until later on. The Eastern Front was won by Russia, mostly by using their own tanks and aircraft, and especially by spilling the blood of their men. The Germans would wipe out whole divisions, only to realize that two more would pop up to replace them.
 
calamity said:
lol...lame.
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Actually what's lame is your attempt at equating the America First bunch with the Trump Campaign slogan Make America Great Again.
 
hanger4 said:
Actually what's lame is your attempt at equating the America First bunch with the Trump Campaign slogan Make America Great Again.
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Please back up your frivolous accusation by showing us all a post in this thread where I did that.
 
PoS said:
Well the tanks and aircraft sent to Russia were pretty much obsolete- the UK had her own war to fight in North Africa during that time and the US was still gearing up. The trucks would have made some difference with regards to extending Russian supply lines, but since they were on the defensive until 1943, it wouldnt have made much difference until later on. The Eastern Front was won by Russia, mostly by using their own tanks and aircraft, and especially by spilling the blood of their men. The Germans would wipe out whole divisions, only to realize that two more would pop up to replace them.
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lol...the US and Brits sent the Russians over 20,000 armored vehicles, of which nearly 10,000 were tanks, from 1941 to 1943, by which time only a little over 1000 remained (see post 14).

So, yes. The Soviets absolutely needed those tanks to defend against the Germans.
 
PoS said:
Well the tanks and aircraft sent to Russia were pretty much obsolete- the UK had her own war to fight in North Africa during that time and the US was still gearing up. The trucks would have made some difference with regards to extending Russian supply lines, but since they were on the defensive until 1943, it wouldnt have made much difference until later on. The Eastern Front was won by Russia, mostly by using their own tanks and aircraft, and especially by spilling the blood of their men. The Germans would wipe out whole divisions, only to realize that two more would pop up to replace them.
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Except that Bubi Hartman was shooting at 50% of the time at P-39s. And they didn’t arrive overnight. I know Bubis kills were all after July43 but a lot of armor of the Germans were being chewed up at Kursk by their 37mm cannons.
 
calamity said:
Please back up your frivolous accusation by showing us all a post in this thread where I did that.
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*3. How different would the world be if Lindbergh had run in 1940*, and he managed to pull off a Trump by winning the White House?*

*3. Trump was brought up in a positive light: he won the election against improbably high odds. This too would have been Lindbergh's fate had he shown up at the contested GOP convention of 1940, as is the premise of the Roth novel cited at the end of the op; a convention which in real life required 6 floor votes to nominate the relatively unknown Wilkie.*
 
hanger4 said:
*3. How different would the world be if Lindbergh had run in 1940*, and he managed to pull off a Trump by winning the White House?*

*3. Trump was brought up in a positive light: he won the election against improbably high odds. This too would have been Lindbergh's fate had he shown up at the contested GOP convention of 1940, as is the premise of the Roth novel cited at the end of the op; a convention which in real life required 6 floor votes to nominate the relatively unknown Wilkie.*
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I see nothing there backing up your accusation in post 34.
 
calamity said:
lol...the US and Brits sent the Russians over 20,000 armored vehicles, of which nearly 10,000 were tanks, from 1941 to 1943, by which time only a little over 1000 remained (see post 14).

So, yes. The Soviets absolutely needed those tanks to defend against the Germans.
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No they didnt. The tanks the US sent over were obsolete light tanks. Their Shermans didnt arrive until late 1944 and the most they got were around 4-5K, by then the Soviets had already pushed the Germans back into Poland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease_Sherman_tanks


The Soviet mainstay was the T-34, and they produced over 35K of those models alone, plus another 23K of their advanced model totaling 58K. The most the Germans could produce with their PzIV was around 13K.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_armored_fighting_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II

Tom Horn said:
Except that Bubi Hartman was shooting at 50% of the time at P-39s. And they didn’t arrive overnight. I know Bubis kills were all after July43 but a lot of armor of the Germans were being chewed up at Kursk by their 37mm cannons.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-39_Airacobra#Soviet_Union

The VVS did not use the P-39 for tank-busting duties.
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PoS said:
No they didnt. The tanks the US sent over were obsolete light tanks. Their Shermans didnt arrive until late 1944 and the most they got were around 4-5K, by then the Soviets had already pushed the Germans back into Poland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease_Sherman_tanks


The Soviet mainstay was the T-34, and they produced over 35K of those models alone, plus another 23K of their advanced model totaling 58K. The most the Germans could produce with their PzIV was around 13K.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_armored_fighting_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-39_Airacobra#Soviet_Union
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Russia’s Life-Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the U.S.S.R. in World War II

A wartime cartoon in The New Yorker shows the docks of Murmansk covered with off-loaded containers and a Soviet official having trouble finding the word “spam” in the dictionary. Spam was one of the many food items sent to the former Soviet Union by the United States under the Lend-Lease Program first suggested by Winston Churchill, to which the United States contributed the major portion. The subject has been previously covered by such books as Hubert van Tuyll’s Feeding the Bear (1989), but the present well-written text has the advantage of access to Russian sources, which were put to good use by Albert Weeks. The author makes a clear case that the program was a major factor in the survival of the Soviet Union and the victory over Nazism.

...It would have been impossible for the Red Army to move the masses of troops and supplies on the primitive roads to the front lines without American Studebaker trucks, which also served as the launching pads for the dreaded Soviet rocket artillery. The trucks were also used for more sinister activities, including the deportation of the North Caucasus Muslims. Less satisfactory for combat were the Western tanks, inferior to the German machines and particularly disadvantaged in the open terrain of the Eastern Front.
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That's why so many Lend-Lease tanks were wiped out: they sucked.

Besides weaponry and food, Lend-Lease provided the Soviet Union with other resources, ranging from clothing to metals.
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The google link is [TMP]”Russian aircraft over Kursk” Topic - The miniatures Page
airpages.ru/U.K./B25rus.shtml
 
If you could translate it for me, # of armored vehicles claimed by 27IAP and 180Guards
 
calamity said:
Interesting bit of history I picked up on recently was that the Brits began transferring tech to the Americans shortly after Dunkirk. From sonar to detect submarines to jet engines for fighters, the US suddenly began manufacturing British designs en masse.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission


So, we were in, even if we pretended we were not.
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I'd not heard of the Tizard mission before but of course ha heard of Henry (later Sir Henry) Tizard.


Roosevelt saw the danger posed by Hitler and Nazi Germany - the Nazis were a far greater threat to the USA than Japan ever was.

Hitler, being the megalomaniac that he was, thought a great country declared war rather than have war declared on it...so he declared war on the USA and ended the phony-neutrality the USA professed.
 
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