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Gettysburg[W:176]

Higgins86

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So I just finished a great book called " Killer angels" which was a great introduction to the US Civil War, I don't really know a ton about the civil war but I have the bug now and have another book on the way. I did finish" Killer angels" with a couple of questions and I was hoping someone on here might be able to
tackle them for me.

1. Why was ( and still is) Lee considered a great General? From what I read his tactics cost the confederates that battle and Pickett's charge was a calamity.

2. If Lee had listen to Longstreet do you think the confederates could have won that battle?

3. If the confederates had won do you think that would have ended the war? If yes do you think the Union would have accepted the two state scenario or would they have eventually looked to retake the South?
 
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So I just finished a great book called " Killer angels" which was a great introduction to the US Civil War, I don't really know a ton about the civil war but I have the bug now and have another book on the way. I did finished " Killer angels" with a couple of questions and I was hoping someone on here might be able to
tackle them for me.

1. Why was ( and still is) Lee considered a great General? From what I read his tactics cost the confederates that battle and Pickett's charge was a calamity.

2. If Lee had listen to Longstreet do you think the confederates could have won that battle?

3. If the confederates had won do you think that would have ended the war? If yes do you think the Union would have accepted the two state scenario or would they have eventually looked to retake the South?

Longstreet and Lee had two different viewpoints. Lee had to try to force a Union defeat with limited resources and limited time to do it.
 
So I just finished a great book called " Killer angels" which was a great introduction to the US Civil War, I don't really know a ton about the civil war but I have the bug now and have another book on the way. I did finished " Killer angels" with a couple of questions and I was hoping someone on here might be able to
tackle them for me.

1. Why was ( and still is) Lee considered a great General? From what I read his tactics cost the confederates that battle and Pickett's charge was a calamity.

2. If Lee had listen to Longstreet do you think the confederates could have won that battle?

3. If the confederates had won do you think that would have ended the war? If yes do you think the Union would have accepted the two state scenario or would they have eventually looked to retake the South?

When I toured Gettysburg a couple of years ago they took us to the point where Picketts Charge started and you could see this massive open field that they had to cross with nothing to protect them. Then at the end of the tour, they take you to where they ended up - at least the few that made it across that span and you saw the rocks and trees the Union soldiers had for cover and it quickly hits you that this was simply suicide and one of the worst decisions any general could ever make. Its just crazy.

I could not get over it and asked a tour guide if there had been more trees in that open field back a century and a half ago and he said NO. It was just like you see it now.

Its really a great place to visit and until you actually walk the grounds its hard to appreciate what happened there.
 
So I just finished a great book called " Killer angels" which was a great introduction to the US Civil War, I don't really know a ton about the civil war but I have the bug now and have another book on the way. I did finished " Killer angels" with a couple of questions and I was hoping someone on here might be able to
tackle them for me.

1. Why was ( and still is) Lee considered a great General? From what I read his tactics cost the confederates that battle and Pickett's charge was a calamity.

2. If Lee had listen to Longstreet do you think the confederates could have won that battle?

3. If the confederates had won do you think that would have ended the war? If yes do you think the Union would have accepted the two state scenario or would they have eventually looked to retake the South?

I'd say probably because the North had the industrial might, they had railroad network, much of the industrial factories, and the South hung in there
 
I'd say probably because the North had the industrial might, they had railroad network, much of the industrial factories, and the South hung in there

I toured the battlefield a couple of years ago & was awed to stand on Little Round Top, the place where the Maine volunteers defeated the Alabama volunteers charging from Big Round Top. The Two hills were just so close together that the fighting must have been intense.

My thoughts about Gettyburg was that Lee made a tragic mistake by trying to attack the North dug in in front him on the high ground. If he had just turned right he could have been in Washington & the South would have won. Pickett's charge was Lee's final folly in that battle.
 
Longstreet and Lee had two different viewpoints. Lee had to try to force a Union defeat with limited resources and limited time to do it.

Lee comes across as a bit arrogant to me where as Longstreet is more of a realist. Lee seems to think he has God on his side which to me explains why he’s so reckless at Gettysburg. He seems to believe that he can’t be defeated.
 
3. If the confederates had won do you think that would have ended the war?

No. Strategically, the Confederacy was doomed when Vicksburg fell.
 
When I toured Gettysburg a couple of years ago they took us to the point where Picketts Charge started and you could see this massive open field that they had to cross with nothing to protect them. Then at the end of the tour, they take you to where they ended up - at least the few that made it across that span and you saw the rocks and trees the Union soldiers had for cover and it quickly hits you that this was simply suicide and one of the worst decisions any general could ever make. Its just crazy.

I could not get over it and asked a tour guide if there had been more trees in that open field back a century and a half ago and he said NO. It was just like you see it now.

Its really a great place to visit and until you actually walk the grounds its hard to appreciate what happened there.
Can we get clarification on the specific orders for the "mobile artillery"?

From one perspective, a massed bombardment should have made sure, most obstacles were destroyed and of less defensive value for the Union forces.
 
I toured the battlefield a couple of years ago & was awed to stand on Little Round Top, the place where the Maine volunteers defeated the Alabama volunteers charging from Big Round Top. The Two hills were just so close together that the fighting must have been intense.

My thoughts about Gettyburg was that Lee made a tragic mistake by trying to attack the North dug in in front him on the high ground. If he had just turned right he could have been in Washington & the South would have won. Pickett's charge was Lee's final folly in that battle.

That bayonet manoeuvre was a thing of beauty
 
So I just finished a great book called " Killer angels" which was a great introduction to the US Civil War, I don't really know a ton about the civil war but I have the bug now and have another book on the way. I did finished " Killer angels" with a couple of questions and I was hoping someone on here might be able to
tackle them for me.

1. Why was ( and still is) Lee considered a great General? From what I read his tactics cost the confederates that battle and Pickett's charge was a calamity.

2. If Lee had listen to Longstreet do you think the confederates could have won that battle?

3. If the confederates had won do you think that would have ended the war? If yes do you think the Union would have accepted the two state scenario or would they have eventually looked to retake the South?

1) He's considered a great general mostly because he managed to keep the Confederacy alive and kicking for so long. He had the benefit of superior subordinate generals and good luck for the first half of the war or so, but after that it was all downhill from there. Even so, a lesser general would have been crushed in 1862 or 1863.

The thing you have to remember about Pickett's Charge is that by Gettysburg Lee had fallen into the trap of believing his own hype. He genuinely believed that no Yankees could defeat his troops, period. He also had a bit of a thing for placing his trust on fellow Virginian officers and George Pickett did command one of the larger units in the Army of Northern Virginia if I remember correctly. So when push came to shove he hurled them at the Union line, realized far too late it was a mistake, and wound up with a more or less shattered army.

Additionally, I think a big part of why Lee is remembered more or less fondly is the way he handled himself in the last days of the war. Rather than running off to Mexico, or turning to guerilla warfare like some of his officers wanted, he handled it with a degree of dignity and class which won the respect of many Union officers. Of course, the fact that a lot of them knew each other probably didn't hurt either.

2) Possibly, but a big part of that is more wishful thinking than anything else. Longstreet was the scapegoat for the common Southerner after the war--- even though his points were extremely valid, by more or less dragging his heels at certain points in the battle he certainly didn't help matters.

Honestly even if the Confederacy had somehow pulled out a miraculous win at Gettysburg, I rather doubt anything would have changed in the end. The war would have dragged on a bit longer, but even if Lincoln lost the election to McClellan what people tend to forget is that he didn't want to end the war either. His whole thing was "I would do a much better job at running the war than Lincoln" and no matter what the Copperheads desperately hoped I doubt he would have allowed himself to be pushed into "peace at any costs".

3) As I said, no I don't think it would have ended the war. Even if it did I don't see the continent staying peaceful for long. The Confederacy was an extremely expansionist society--- after all, slavery needed to keep growing to new lands in order to survive--- and retaking the south would be the number one priority for the north for decades to come. Likely you would see a Confederate involvement in Mexico, possibly a Confederate-Spain war over Cuba, and after that who knows.
 
Lee comes across as a bit arrogant to me where as Longstreet is more of a realist. Lee seems to think he has God on his side which to me explains why he’s so reckless at Gettysburg. He seems to believe that he can’t be defeated.

Lee had to try to force a Union defeat with limited resources and limited time to do it.
 
So I just finished a great book called " Killer angels" which was a great introduction to the US Civil War, I don't really know a ton about the civil war but I have the bug now and have another book on the way. I did finished " Killer angels" with a couple of questions and I was hoping someone on here might be able to
tackle them for me.

1. Why was ( and still is) Lee considered a great General? From what I read his tactics cost the confederates that battle and Pickett's charge was a calamity.

Lee was not at his best at Gettysburg. There is speculation he may have had a heart attack, and he definitely had some health issues. Lee was at his best when being attacked, and he was the attacker at Gettysburg. He was also left high and dry by his cavalry, which while it was partially his own fault, still left him without proper scouts. He was forced into battle, when he likely would have preferred to avoid it at that spot.

2. If Lee had listen to Longstreet do you think the confederates could have won that battle?

No. Attacking hills with good cover on top is just not going to go well in the minet ball era. Add in a great US artillery commander, the odds of forcing the US forces to withdraw are slim. Further, strategically, once he joined battle, his offensive was over. Even had they held the field, they still would have had to run for the border. He would have been much better served to avoid large battle.

3. If the confederates had won do you think that would have ended the war? If yes do you think the Union would have accepted the two state scenario or would they have eventually looked to retake the South?

No. The US would still have had the opportunity to intercept a now much weaker Confederate army before they got back to Virginia, and would have been much more motivated to do so. Further, Lincoln would have stepped up pressure to gain a big win somewhere before election. As long as Lincoln was president, the US was going to push for victory, which was inevitable eventually. The question would have been the election results, and if Lincoln picked up a victory anywhere before election, he had a good chance of winning the election.
 
When I toured Gettysburg a couple of years ago they took us to the point where Picketts Charge started and you could see this massive open field that they had to cross with nothing to protect them. Then at the end of the tour, they take you to where they ended up - at least the few that made it across that span and you saw the rocks and trees the Union soldiers had for cover and it quickly hits you that this was simply suicide and one of the worst decisions any general could ever make. Its just crazy.

I could not get over it and asked a tour guide if there had been more trees in that open field back a century and a half ago and he said NO. It was just like you see it now.

Its really a great place to visit and until you actually walk the grounds its hard to appreciate what happened there.

The charge there probably came out of reading too much military tactics from Europe. It would have worked according to the books (mostly French books) at the time. The fact that Americans were good shots and not good at massed suicide walks into the enemy ranks made it not work.

The French army was still using those tactics in WWI. Loads and loads died. German machine guns were far more effective.
 
Can we get clarification on the specific orders for the "mobile artillery"?

From one perspective, a massed bombardment should have made sure, most obstacles were destroyed and of less defensive value for the Union forces.

While I am nothing even close to an expert on this battle, I must confess that there were some massive boulders and rock formations at the end of that open field that formed the hills that the Union was fortified behind. I strongly suspect they were not moved there over the last century and a half and were there during the Battle in 1863. Any shelling of this area simply did not clear the area nor dislodge the Union troops using it for cover.

It literally was like shooting fish in the proverbial barrel.

Of the more than 12,000 Confederate troops that started across that nearly mile wide field, less than several hundred actually got to the stone wall for cover. I believe that is what the tour guide told us when we stood on Little Round Top and the surrounding elevated and covered area. I think Pickett himself said it best when he was asked why it failed...... "I've always thought the Yankees had something to do with it."
 
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Lee comes across as a bit arrogant to me where as Longstreet is more of a realist. Lee seems to think he has God on his side which to me explains why he’s so reckless at Gettysburg. He seems to believe that he can’t be defeated.

This is true. All the winning seemed to go to his head, despite him mostly winning due to poor US leadership more than his tactics. Chancellorsville was considered to be his shining moment tactically, but flank maneuvers are hardly radical, and it only worked due to the US right having an incompetent(and drunk iirc) general.
 
So I just finished a great book called " Killer angels" which was a great introduction to the US Civil War, I don't really know a ton about the civil war but I have the bug now and have another book on the way. I did finish" Killer angels" with a couple of questions and I was hoping someone on here might be able to
tackle them for me.

1. Why was ( and still is) Lee considered a great General? From what I read his tactics cost the confederates that battle and Pickett's charge was a calamity.

2. If Lee had listen to Longstreet do you think the confederates could have won that battle?

3. If the confederates had won do you think that would have ended the war? If yes do you think the Union would have accepted the two state scenario or would they have eventually looked to retake the South?

I would say that Lee was better than most of his opponents. So calling him great IMO is a stretch.

The best bet for the confederates would probably been to disengage and fight in an area that they picked. Rather than where the two armies stumbled into each other. Should have read Sun Tzu's "The art of war". This was the South's last real chance at victory. If they were able to rout Meade's army north of the Potomac, the thought was that there would be panic and perhaps a bid for peace.

Clearly Lee blew it. Perhaps he was overconfident due to his recent win. He bet his army, like picking black or red on the roulette wheel and lost.
 
The charge there probably came out of reading too much military tactics from Europe. It would have worked according to the books (mostly French books) at the time. The fact that Americans were good shots and not good at massed suicide walks into the enemy ranks made it not work.

The French army was still using those tactics in WWI. Loads and loads died. German machine guns were far more effective.

It was not that the US had particularly good shots, it was the advent of the minet ball making rifles the primary weapon, and more use of rifled artillery. The 10 pound ordnance rifle, and the 10 pound parrot where both superior to 12 pound Napoleons.
 
The charge there probably came out of reading too much military tactics from Europe. It would have worked according to the books (mostly French books) at the time. The fact that Americans were good shots and not good at massed suicide walks into the enemy ranks made it not work.

The French army was still using those tactics in WWI. Loads and loads died. German machine guns were far more effective.

It is said that military cadets learn from books describing battles twenty to thirty years ago. They then spend the next twenty years getting to positions of authority. By the time they order troops into battle, the lessons they have in their head about how to do it are a half century old and out of date.

The result is Pickett's Charge and the disaster of WW One shown so vividly in films like PATH'S OF GLORY. Suicide is the only way to describe it.
 
Some great responses already, thanks everyone
 
btw- if anybody goes to Gettysburg - and it is highly recommended that you do - make sure you visit the new center where the Gettysburg Cyclorama is located.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettysburg_Cyclorama

Its truly amazing.

The other thing is if you have three or more people, its almost the same price to hire your own tour guide and they drive your car for you and give you a longer private tour than the normal bus tour does. And you can ask questions to your hears content without competition from anybody else.
 
No. Strategically, the Confederacy was doomed when Vicksburg fell.

Yes. That severed the Mississippi & cut the Confederacy in half. And the Union already had New Orleans & the forts at the river delta.

The theory behind Gettysburg was that it was a feint to draw troops away from Vicksburg but that failed as Vicksburg fell on 7/4 right after Gettysburg.
 
I’ll add it to the list, i just ordered God’s and Generals

Make sure you read: The Personal Memoirs of Ulysses S. Grant

Invaluable to understanding the Civil War.
 
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