You are American WW2 pilot (not Jewish) , bad luck, Which concentration camp ´d you prefer ?

You are American WW2 pilot (not Jewish) , bad luck, Which concentration camp ´d you prefer ?

1) a German one
2) Stalin´s GULAG

ps please explain your choice


A prisoner who went on hunger strike is being forcefully fed through his nostril. According to laws of Soviet humanism, only those who had normal body temperature (36.6…37 C) could be shot.




“Sprinkle ‘im with holy water for a better afterlife. I’ll give him snow so bulls won’t walk into him too soon!”

In the Gulag, kingpins were privileged similarly to modern bureaucrats.
Execution by the “court of thieves” sentence in one of ITL’s (Gulag abbreviation for labor penitentiary camps)



Repeatedly convicted felons were about 3 steps higher than “enemies of the people” in criminal hierarchy. They usually weren’t working, having small-time thieves as servants and work results from common inmates. Those felons helped to eliminate “enemies of the people”…


By the order of the prosecutor general Vyshinsky, any methods were considered “good” to get the confession. NKVD staff used brutal tortures with pump, soldering iron, bottle (shoved into vagina and anus), rats (placed in the heated bucket under victim’s bare buttocks) etc.

more:
https://www.cvltnation.com/brutal-drawings-from-the-gulag/

Sep 1, 1939 – Sep 2, 1945


Well considering that WWII ended on Sept 2, 1945, formal surrender of Japan any pilots (age 20 when flying) would be at least 92 years old. Don't think you are going to have very many responses.

Odd thread?

America and the Soviets were allies during that time so I would definitely choose them. I'm sure they would put me in a nice hotel with some very beautiful Russian women and give me all the caviar and vodka I could consume.

PoS said:

America and the Soviets were allies during that time so I would definitely choose them. I'm sure they would put me in a nice hotel with some very beautiful Russian women and give me all the caviar and vodka I could consume.

Click to expand...

I was going to say the Axis was Germany, Italy, and Japan, of those three perhaps Italy, definitely not Japan.

longview said:

I was going to say the Axis was Germany, Italy, and Japan, of those three perhaps Italy, definitely not Japan.

Click to expand...

Well the OP gave us two choices: Germany or the USSR, so its a pretty silly thread. :lol:

Litwin said:

You are American WW2 pilot (not Jewish) , bad luck, Which concentration camp ´d you prefer ?

Click to expand...

POWs did not go into concentration camps. They went to Stalags, which were Prisoner of War camps.

Specifically a pilot would go to a Stalag Luft, a special prison for aviation POWs. For example., the famous "Great Escape" was from Stalug Luft III. Even Hollywood knew this, which is why Hogan's Heroes was set at Stalag Luft XIII.

They did not go into Concentration Camps, so this is a bogus thread.

Oozlefinch said:

POWs did not go into concentration camps. They went to Stalags, which were Prisoner of War camps.

Specifically a pilot would go to a Stalag Luft, a special prison for aviation POWs. For example., the famous "Great Escape" was from Stalug Luft III. Even Hollywood knew this, which is why Hogan's Heroes was set at Stalag Luft XIII.

They did not go into Concentration Camps, so this is a bogus thread.

Click to expand...

do you consider GULAG as the concentration camps?

PoS said:

America and the Soviets were allies during that time so I would definitely choose them. I'm sure they would put me in a nice hotel with some very beautiful Russian women and give me all the caviar and vodka I could consume.

Click to expand...

in your dreams:

"The largest group of Americans imprisoned in the Soviet Union included more than 730 pilots and other airmen who either made "forced landings on Soviet territory" or were shot down on Cold War spy flights. Volkogonov was not specific as to their fates but spoke generally about prisoners being interned in labor camps, with some being executed and others forced to eventually renounce their American citizenship." Soviets Executed GIs After WWII : Prisoners: Other Americans were forced to renounce citizenship, Yeltsin writes Senate panel. But no sign of POWs from Korea, Vietnam wars found, Russian says.

"As war spread across the world at the end of 1941, the Soviet Union found itself between a rock known as Nazi Germany and a hard place called imperial Japan. With all its forces battling Germany in the west, the Soviet Union had to keep peace on its isolated and vulnerable eastern borders. To avoid risking its status as a neutral country in the war between the United States and Japan, the Soviet Union interned many American flyers who crashed or made emergency landings in Soviet territory after bombing Japanese targets.
This is the long-secret and nearly forgotten story of how the Soviet commissariat for internal affairs interned 291 young Americans in Siberia and, at the risk of war on a second front, eventually smuggled four groups of them to south central Asia and finally across the Iranian border.

Official U.S. military records of the internments are impersonal and sketchy. To tell the story in its entirety, Otis Hays, Jr., sought out surviving airmen and found some who had smuggled rudimentary diaries out of the Soviet Union and helped piece together the tale.
" https://www.amazon.com/Home-Siberia-Odysseys-Williams-Ford-University/dp/1585440108

"
"Clearly, there were a lot of Americans washing around the gulag, but it is unimaginable that any of the World War II prisoners are still alive," said Paul M. Cole, who wrote a three-volume report for the Rand Corporation in 1994 on American prisoners from World War II, the Korean War and the cold war who were held in the Soviet Union.

Family members of Americans missing in Korea and in the cold war downings are increasingly demanding answers from the bilateral research group, the U.S.-Russian Joint Commission on P.O.W./M.I.A.'s.

"I definitely believe that some survived," said Patricia Lively Dickinson, a Delaware resident, who believes that her brother, Jack D. Lively, a Navy airman who was shot down in 1951, was one of the four Americans that Mr. Trotsenko saw at the military hospital. "I feel that Jack's files are in the K.G.B. files."

Bruce Sanderson, a North Dakota steelworker, also believes that his father, Lieut. Warren Sanderson, survived the shooting down of his reconnaissance plane near Vladivostok in 1953."

Decades Later, Tales of Americans in Soviet Jails

---

Litwin said:

do you consider GULAG as the concentration camps?

Click to expand...

Does not matter, a gulag is also not a POW camp. The purpose of this thread I thought was about POWs.

Oozlefinch said:

Does not matter, a gulag is also not a POW camp. The purpose of this thread I thought was about POWs.

Click to expand...

did sovok- cccp have POW camps in general?

Litwin said:

did sovok- cccp have POW camps in general?

Click to expand...

You clearly have an opinion here. Which would you prefer? And why does it matter?

PoS said:

Well the OP gave us two choices: Germany or the USSR, so its a pretty silly thread. :lol:

Click to expand...

yes it was my question, and the fact is that 99% Americans dont know that many , many american war heroes died in the Siberian Koba´s hell

“I am… English, French, American, Japanese, Italian, German and other spy…”

.

Click to expand...

By the order of the prosecutor general Vyshinsky, any methods were considered “good” to get the confession. NKVD staff used brutal tortures with pump, soldering iron, bottle (shoved into vagina and anus), rats (placed in the heated bucket under victim’s bare buttocks) etc.

During the epoch of Stalin, such mass executions were common. Party staff, political and other activists, artists were executed by center’s orders, which were issued like hunting licenses by species of animals – moose, saigas, arkhars, argali, bears… This was made regularly to prevent the rise of national dignity in distant parts of the USSR.

Click to expand...

“After we’ll **** this scoundrel’s ass through, he’ll be quick to remember how to make sabotage against Soviet regime and party in university with his cybernetics!”

Click to expand...

https://www.cvltnation.com/brutal-drawings-from-the-gulag/

Fletch said:

You clearly have an opinion here. Which would you prefer? And why does it matter?

Click to expand...

i ´d prefer of coz a German camp, mortality rate for Italians in GULAGs was more than 90%, officially (cccp "statistic") more then 50% . chances for an American pilot to return home from GULAG was close to 0.

"The treatment of World War II prisoners of war (POWs) varied widely from country to country. Axis and Soviet war crimes included the barbaric treatment of POWS. Some 2-3 million POWs were esentially murdered, primarily by starvation and exposure. Almost all the POWs taken by the Western Allies (American and British) survived the War in good condition (about 99 percent). Few POWs taken by the Soviets survived (5-10 percent). Some were executed by the NKVD, especially the Polish POWs. Fewer Germans were shot, but huge numbers perished because of mitreatment and living conditions. They were used to he help repair the damage done, and surivors did not get back to Germny for years. German policies varied greatly from country to country. POWs from the Western Allies generally survived the War, although not at the same rate as the Germans taken prisiner by the Americans and British. Conditions in German camps deterioratd badly in the final years of the War. There were some abuses such as the treatment of Jewish servicemen and escapees. POWs from Poland and the Soviet Union perished in large numbers. This was in part due to the huge numbers taken orisoner, but was primarily an act of genocide, using starvation nd exposure to kill. The Germans after engenerring massive deaths, eventually improved conditions somehat so the mnen could be used as slave labor. The Italins did not take mny prosoners, but the Germans turned over POWs taken in North Africa to the Italians. The Japanese treated POWs brutally and the death rate was very high, although climate kept survival rates higher than in Soviet camps, at least for the wester POWs. The fate of the Chinese soldiers was different, the Japanese simply killed them. At the end of the war, despite capturing large numbers of Chinese soldiers, thre were noPOWs to turn over to the Chinese authorities, one of the great atrocities of the war and ratherly mentioned. "

World War II -- prisoners of war POWs country trends

Litwin said:

yes it was my question, and the fact is that 99% Americans dont know that many , many american war heroes died in the Siberian Koba´s hell

Click to expand...

:cuckoo:

Litwin said:

did sovok- cccp have POW camps in general?

Click to expand...

Yes, they were known as GUPVI. They were not Gulags.

And I am tired of doing your research for you. Learn to do your own damned research, and do it factually and accurately.

Oozlefinch said:

Yes, they were known as GUPVI. They were not Gulags.

And I am tired of doing your research for you. Learn to do your own damned research, and do it factually and accurately.

Click to expand...

"hard labor, poor nutrition and living conditions, high mortality rate" so as a latent Stalinist you´d prefer to end up in GUPVI? and i am 100% sure as an African pilot´d have 0 chance to ended up there

"In many ways the GUPVI system was similar to GULAG.[6] Its major function was the organization of foreign forced labor in the Soviet Union. The top management of GUPVI came from GULAG system. The major noted distinction from GULAG was the absence of convicted criminals in the GUPVI camps. Otherwise the conditions in both camp systems were similar: hard labor, poor nutrition and living conditions, high mortality rate.[7]

Another noted distinction was that GUPVI was a major source of recruitment of future communist activists for communist states, such as GDR and People's Republic of Poland, as well as various "democratic committees" of Japanese, Austrians, etc.[7][8][9] Significant efforts were channelled into " ideological reforging" (идеологическая перековка) of the laborers, and numerous clubs, libraries, local radio stations were created.[9] "

PoS said:

America and the Soviets were allies during that time so I would definitely choose them. I'm sure they would put me in a nice hotel with some very beautiful Russian women and give me all the caviar and vodka I could consume.

Click to expand...

No, sadly pilots were told to get to German occupied land rather than Soviet as the treatment by the Germans who's homes and families you had just bombed was never going to be as bad as being held by the Russians.

You would not be coming back from Russia. They were taken as slaves.

Tim the plumber said:

No, sadly pilots were told to get to German occupied land rather than Soviet as the treatment by the Germans who's homes and families you had just bombed was never going to be as bad as being held by the Russians.

You would not be coming back from Russia. They were taken as slaves.

Click to expand...

You need to show me some legit news links that prove downed American pilots in WW2 were enslaved by the Soviets.

An American pilot would not be imprisoned by the soviets in WW2 but returned to the US.
So yeah only a moron would rather be taken by the Germans than the Russians in this moronic scenario

PoS said:

You need to show me some legit news links that prove downed American pilots in WW2 were enslaved by the Soviets.

Click to expand...

Quag said:

An American pilot would not be imprisoned by the soviets in WW2 but returned to the US.
So yeah only a moron would rather be taken by the Germans than the Russians in this moronic scenario

Click to expand...

Now here is where we get to the germ of truth in the fantastical claims that were implied at in this thread.

Yes, there were American and other Allied personnel held in the Soviet POW camp system. Generally they arrived there in one of two ways. Either their aircraft would end up landing in Soviet held territory, or they would be "liberated" from a German POW camp and then taken into captivity by the Soviets.

In 1944 during WWII, 4 B-29 aircraft were damaged during or after attack runs into Japan, and were forced to land at Vladivostok. And upon landing, the crews were taken into custody, interrogated, then placed into POW camps. There they were held for 3-7 months before being "allowed" to escape into American control in Iran in January 1945.

The 4 aircraft were the Ramp Tramp, Ding Hao, Cait Paomat, and the General H. H. Arnold Special.

The last is most especially important. After the war ended, the Soviets started to fly their newest bomber, the Tu-4. And from the day it first flew, the US realized what the Soviets had was a copy of the B-29. It was years later that they finally got to look inside of the Tu-4, and it was an exact copy of the B-29, all the way down to rivet placement, and the fact it used Imperial measurements for everything, not Metric.

And every Tu-4 was a copy of an early model B-29. Not only that, but the very first B-29 placed into service. How do they know that? Because the first B-29 released to the USAAC was the General H. H. Arnold, and in the cockpit was a presentation plate that stated that it was the first.

And every single Tu-4 had the raised metal mounting position for the plate in the exact same location. Something that was only done to a single aircraft.

One who tried for years to bring this to light was Martin Siegel. An American Soldier held in German Stalag IV-B, about 30 miles north of Dresden. At the time the Soviets "liberated" the camp in April 1945, it held about 7,000 American POWs that had been captured during the Battle of the Bulge. In addition to the over 10,000 US prisoners were 20,000 others from other Allied armies.

But the prisoners were still held in captivity. There were many who were able to escape during this time, such as Sergeant Seigel and make their way to American lines. These prisoners were held in the prison for months afterwards, the last ones finally being returned in August 1945 (but many are still unaccounted for to this day).

And this is a fact. Boris Yeltsin even admitted to it in 1992 shortly after the fall of the USSR.

Soviets Executed GIs After WWII : Prisoners: Other Americans were forced to renounce citizenship, Yeltsin writes Senate panel. But no sign of POWs from Korea, Vietnam wars found, Russian says. - latimes

No, they were rarely repatriated. And legally, they were not even required to. While an ally in the war against Germany, they held strict neutrality with the Japanese. And under international law they could justify holding them as "internees" because their release could lead them to fight against Japan.

Not unlike the status of both Axis and Allied POWs in Switzerland. Being neutral, they were required to either hold or release any combatants that fell into their hands. The majority ended up being Allied pilots. For this they set up the Wauwilermoos Internment Camp in 1940.

In it they held prisoners from most minor combatants in the war, and all major combatants but Japan. French, English, German, Italian, American, Greek, Poles, all of them.

So sorry, these claims are wrong. The Soviets did not just hand over POWs they liberated, and took any allied members they had in their control into prisons.

Hell, it was not even the Soviet Union but Russia that finally released the last 80 Japanese POWs in 1992!

So yea, I have to agree in the fact that if given a chance, I would rather be a POW of the Germans than of the Soviets. Conditions at the Stalags may have been brutal, but the Germans at least tried to follow the Geneva Conventions.

Prisoners in the Soviet system were all considered to be "political prisoners", because of their "Western Capitalist Ideology". And even those held in more neutral internment camps and not actual prisoner camps were forced to go through endless hours of "political indoctrination", in the hopes they could be converted to believers of World Socialism.

So if I had to list the countries running a POW camp, I would go to the Germans first. And I would rather be in the camp of an enemy, than that of the neutral Swiss. And only after the Swiss would I choose to go into the camp of our Ally the Soviets.

Litwin said:

"hard labor, poor nutrition and living conditions, high mortality rate" so as a latent Stalinist you´d prefer to end up in GUPVI? and i am 100% sure as an African pilot´d have 0 chance to ended up there

"In many ways the GUPVI system was similar to GULAG.[6] Its major function was the organization of foreign forced labor in the Soviet Union. The top management of GUPVI came from GULAG system. The major noted distinction from GULAG was the absence of convicted criminals in the GUPVI camps. Otherwise the conditions in both camp systems were similar: hard labor, poor nutrition and living conditions, high mortality rate.[7]

Another noted distinction was that GUPVI was a major source of recruitment of future communist activists for communist states, such as GDR and People's Republic of Poland, as well as various "democratic committees" of Japanese, Austrians, etc.[7][8][9] Significant efforts were channelled into " ideological reforging" (идеологическая перековка) of the laborers, and numerous clubs, libraries, local radio stations were created.[9] "

Click to expand...

Wow, you just copy and paste, and do not even bother to remove the links from the original article? And anybody who says you are wrong must be a "latent Stalinist"?

You see, it is things like this that causes very few in here to take you seriously at all.

No, a GUPVI is not a Gulag. No more then a modern Military Stockade (like the United States Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth) is a Penitentiary. Yes, superficially to an imbicle they may seem to be the same, but they are not. One holds civilians, and only civilians (although a member of the military convicted of a crime not related to their military duties may be incarcerated there). But there are no civilian prisoners at a stockade.

However, many fail to grasp that at Fort Leavenworth, there are 2 Federal Prisons that share the name. One is "United States Penitentiary, Leavenworth", located outside the base but sharing the name. This is where Whitey Bulger, George Moran, Michael Vick, and Robert Stroud were held. Only civilians are held here.

The other is the United States Disciplinary Barracks, Fort Leavenworth. Only US military members are held here after a conviction in a General Court Martial. Included among this number is Hasan Akbar, Nidal Hasan, William Calley, and Bradley Manning.

Oozlefinch said:

Now here is where we get to the germ of truth in the fantastical claims that were implied at in this thread.

Yes, there were American and other Allied personnel held in the Soviet POW camp system. Generally they arrived there in one of two ways. Either their aircraft would end up landing in Soviet held territory, or they would be "liberated" from a German POW camp and then taken into captivity by the Soviets.

In 1944 during WWII, 4 B-29 aircraft were damaged during or after attack runs into Japan, and were forced to land at Vladivostok. And upon landing, the crews were taken into custody, interrogated, then placed into POW camps. There they were held for 3-7 months before being "allowed" to escape into American control in Iran in January 1945.

The 4 aircraft were the Ramp Tramp, Ding Hao, Cait Paomat, and the General H. H. Arnold Special.

The last is most especially important. After the war ended, the Soviets started to fly their newest bomber, the Tu-4. And from the day it first flew, the US realized what the Soviets had was a copy of the B-29. It was years later that they finally got to look inside of the Tu-4, and it was an exact copy of the B-29, all the way down to rivet placement, and the fact it used Imperial measurements for everything, not Metric.

And every Tu-4 was a copy of an early model B-29. Not only that, but the very first B-29 placed into service. How do they know that? Because the first B-29 released to the USAAC was the General H. H. Arnold, and in the cockpit was a presentation plate that stated that it was the first.

And every single Tu-4 had the raised metal mounting position for the plate in the exact same location. Something that was only done to a single aircraft.

One who tried for years to bring this to light was Martin Siegel. An American Soldier held in German Stalag IV-B, about 30 miles north of Dresden. At the time the Soviets "liberated" the camp in April 1945, it held about 7,000 American POWs that had been captured during the Battle of the Bulge. In addition to the over 10,000 US prisoners were 20,000 others from other Allied armies.

But the prisoners were still held in captivity. There were many who were able to escape during this time, such as Sergeant Seigel and make their way to American lines. These prisoners were held in the prison for months afterwards, the last ones finally being returned in August 1945 (but many are still unaccounted for to this day).

And this is a fact. Boris Yeltsin even admitted to it in 1992 shortly after the fall of the USSR.

Soviets Executed GIs After WWII : Prisoners: Other Americans were forced to renounce citizenship, Yeltsin writes Senate panel. But no sign of POWs from Korea, Vietnam wars found, Russian says. - latimes

No, they were rarely repatriated. And legally, they were not even required to. While an ally in the war against Germany, they held strict neutrality with the Japanese. And under international law they could justify holding them as "internees" because their release could lead them to fight against Japan.

Not unlike the status of both Axis and Allied POWs in Switzerland. Being neutral, they were required to either hold or release any combatants that fell into their hands. The majority ended up being Allied pilots. For this they set up the Wauwilermoos Internment Camp in 1940.

In it they held prisoners from most minor combatants in the war, and all major combatants but Japan. French, English, German, Italian, American, Greek, Poles, all of them.

So sorry, these claims are wrong. The Soviets did not just hand over POWs they liberated, and took any allied members they had in their control into prisons.

Click to expand...

Cut to fit post size limit

Or you could have been shot down near an American base in soviet held territory, which meant you would probably be back with your unit in little to no time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Frantic

I am assuming if you have the choice between Germans and Russians you were flying somewhere over eastern Europe not Asia.
Lets face it the OP is a pathetic attempt to make Nazis seem OK by trying to make Soviets seem worse. Most people know they were both terrible regimes

Quag said:

Cut to fit post size limit

Or you could have been shot down near an American base in soviet held territory, which meant you would probably be back with your unit in little to no time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Frantic

I am assuming if you have the choice between Germans and Russians you were flying somewhere over eastern Europe not Asia.
Lets face it the OP is a pathetic attempt to make Nazis seem OK by trying to make Soviets seem worse. Most people know they were both terrible regimes

Click to expand...

That operation was an exception. Late-war, and a planned operation between the US and USSR. It was not very successful, the SOviets were not hospitable and actually antagonistic, and towards the end the US forces were ejected from the country.

Oozlefinch said:

That operation was an exception. Late-war, and a planned operation between the US and USSR. It was not very successful, the SOviets were not hospitable and actually antagonistic, and towards the end the US forces were ejected from the country.

Click to expand...

All true but you are 100% guaranteed to be a POW if captured by Nazis cant say the same thing if you were shot down over soviet held territory