• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Did Stalin (Koba) Start World War 2? The Secret Plans to Conquer Europe

Litwin

Litwin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
33,607
Reaction score
5,193
Location
GDL/Sweden
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist


"The Soviet Union began World War II with a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany, the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, signed on 23 August 1939. About the book: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159... In addition to stipulations of non-aggression, the treaty included a secret protocol that divided territories of Romania, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland into German and Soviet "spheres of influence", anticipating potential "territorial and political rearrangements" of these countries. Stalin and Hitler later traded proposals for a Soviet entry into the Axis Pact.

Germany invaded Poland on 1 September 1939, and Joseph Stalin ordered his own invasion of Poland on 17 September. Part of southeastern (Karelia) and Salla region in Finland were annexed by the Soviet Union after the Winter War. This was followed by Soviet annexations of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and parts of Romania (Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and the Hertza region). It was only in 1989 that the Soviet Union admitted the existence of the secret protocol of the Nazi-Soviet pact regarding the planned divisions of these territories.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
WWII started when Germany invaded Poland.It ended when the USSR and its allies defeated the Nazis.
 
shrubnose said:
WWII started when Germany invaded Poland.It ended when the USSR and its allies defeated the Nazis.
Click to expand...

what do you think about soviet - Nazi pact?

hqdefault.jpg


Soviet_and_German_Troops.png


220px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-121-0011-20%2C_Polen%2C_deutsch-sowjetische_Siegesparade.jpg

23August1939NaziUSSR.jpg
 
Litwin said:
"The Soviet Union began World War II with a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany, the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, signed on 23 August 1939.
Click to expand...

No, no...

First, your Amazon link doesn't work so I can't tell what this book is, the publisher, or who the author is. All of this goes to credibility. For example, a history book published by Bantam Books is hardly a university press, which is peer reviewed by other historians.

Second, and I suspect you know this, Germany had been starting this war for years and years before it even annexed parts of Czechoslovakia and then occupied the rest.

Third, the 1939 Nazi-Soviet Pact of non-aggression had everything to do with Germany not wanting to fight a two front war and Stalin taking advantage in order to carve out a buffer zone from Poland. He knew that Hitler could not be trusted and would probably break the pact after Britain was defeated. Hitler did not wait and launched Operation Barbarossa two years later in June 1941 on Soviet positions in Eastern Poland. A few months later, Stalin reached out to British diplomats to join the alliance. The U.S. would get hit by Japan that December, oficially bringing Americans into the Allied side.

So what we here is a king douche, who wanted to consume a large portion of Europe in order to satisfy a long held German policy of Lebensraum (living space), who later conspired with another king douche to carve up Poland, who was later betrayed by the first king douche, so he ran towards the Allies. The Soviet Union in no way started World War II. One could argue that Britain and France set the conditions for an aggressive Germany after World War I, but Germany has to own what it started later.
 
Litwin said:
why Soviet State Emblem did have only the globe on it , not just ussr map?
Click to expand...

Because Marx' theory of communism was global, in that the proletariat (workers) would one day unite against the factory elite, who exploit their labor, and the capitalist system. He actually thought it would take place in western Europe.

Lenin believed that the Bolshevik Revolution was the start of a global shift towards communism. This is why, apart from the globe, there is also the hammer and sickle. However, he recognized after World War I that this was not to be. He also recognized that Russia's poor economic and industrial status made it hardly an example for the world. He re-focused his idea of communist spread towards the internal and grew to believe that only after Russia proved the theory of communism successful, that Russia could be in a position help the world.

Stalin, who was less interested in such theories, was more interested in securing his dictatorship. However, after World War II, he moved to support communism in the world against capitalism. The Cold War began and global dictators became the weapon of choice for both sides. One can argue that the Stalin was more true to his values than the U.S. was. I mean, Stalin was a dictator, who supported dictators. But I digress.
 
Last edited:
Litwin said:
Icebreaker
Click to expand...

You have to recognize the source. It was published in 1988 by Hamish Hamilton Limited, which originally specialized in fiction, at the height of the Cold War. Before 1990, the company was sold to Penguin Books, which is still known for fiction and non-fiction.

Of course, this alone certainly does not mean it is rubbish. I am sure he makes plenty of decent arguments. But his argument about Stalin starting World War II is not something that gained traction among historians at all. It appears to be a 1988 argument he tried to make and that's where it stayed. This happens all the time.

Stalin's buildup of the military had much to do with the lunatic in Germany and his speeches about needing space in the east for the scattered Germanic people. Getting rid of Jews, especially in the east, was all about space. The plan was actually to merely deport Jews to Madagascar. This was, of course, impractical. Extermination became the solution. But Stalin knew all of this years before the Nazi-Soviet Pact. Stalin had no intention of simply taking ver Europe. Given WWI and then WWII, even the Berlin Wall was about creating a line of defense against the West. What ensued later was as much about ideology as it was about global resources.
 
MSgt said:
You have to recognize the source. It was published in 1988 by Hamish Hamilton Limited, which originally specialized in fiction, at the height of the Cold War. Before 1990, the company was sold to Penguin Books, which is still known for fiction and non-fiction.

Of course, this alone certainly does not mean it is rubbish. I am sure he makes plenty of decent arguments. But his argument about Stalin starting World War II is not something that gained traction among historians at all. It appears to be a 1988 argument he tried to make and that's where it stayed. This happens all the time.

Stalin's buildup of the military had much to do with the lunatic in Germany and his speeches about needing space in the east for the scattered Germanic people. Getting rid of Jews, especially in the east, was all about space. The plan was actually to merely deport Jews to Madagascar. This was, of course, impractical. Extermination became the solution. But Stalin knew all of this years before the Nazi-Soviet Pact. Stalin had no intention of simply taking ver Europe. Given WWI and then WWII, even the Berlin Wall was about creating a line of defense against the West. What ensued later was as much about ideology as it was about global resources.
Click to expand...

the most Most Popular book in Muscovy about WW2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icebreaker_(Suvorov)

and here is my present to you

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/pdf_books/icebreaker.pdf

ICEBREAKER
Who Started the
Second World War?
Viktor Suvorov
Translated by Thomas B. Beattie
 
Litwin said:
the most Most Popular book in Muscovy about WW2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icebreaker_(Suvorov)
Click to expand...

The Wikipedia site that you offered here tells you all you need to know about his argument...

1) His argument challenges the view that Hitler attacked an unsuspecting USSR and that the Soviet Union was poised to invade Nazi-controlled territories in July 1941. So he does not argue who started World War II, as your thread title implies. And it has been known for decades that Stalin used the Nazi-Soviet Pact as a stalling device because he suspected that Hitler was going to break eventually it. He began building his military, but ran out of time because Hitler invaded East Poland sooner than expected.

2) Here is more from the Wikipedia site you offerred...

"Suvorov's view that a Soviet invasion of Germany was imminent in 1941 is not shared by most historians.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Although Suvorov claims that an attack date of July 6, 1941 had been selected, this is contradicted by the evidence as presented by Glantz and others.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

For his part, however, Suvorov not only admits his selectiveness but justifies his methods...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Summarising the western scholars' opinion on Icebreaker Hugh Ragsdale concludes that the book is "generally considered discredited" by now, whereas Jonathan Haslam notes that Suvorov's claims "would be comical were it not taken so seriously."
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

It appears that the only people who like to take this bad argument serious are those who like the idea that blame can be shifted to the Soviets and away from Germany. But again, he does not argue that the Soviets started World War II. Revisionism is fine. But it should come out of newly discovered material and evidence. It should not be a matter of selectivity of the evidence in order to sustain a bad argument.
 
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed into force before WWII, so no, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact did not start World War II.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom