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Roman history

CletusWilbury

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Reading:Caesar: A Biography by Christian Meier, 1996
Interesting interaction between the Marcus Bibulus side and the Caesar side of a land redistribution law proposed, describe below. The Senate feared Caesar would gain popularity, and opposed diluting their own power in the Senate.

Agrariae Leges - Agrarian Laws
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The following passage from Appian (Civil Wars, I.7)— "The Romans," he says, "when they conquered any part of Italy, seized a portion of the lands, and either built cities in them, or sent Roman colonists to settle in the cities which already existed. Such cities they designed to be garrison places. As to the land thus acquired from time to time, they either divided the cultivated part among the colonists, or sold it, or let it to farm. As to the land which had fallen out of cultivation in consequence of war, and which, indeed, was the larger p39 part, having no time to allot it, they gave public notice that any one who chose might in the meantime cultivate this land, on payment of part of the yearly produced, namely, a tenth of the produce of arable land, and a fifth of the produce of olive-yards and vineyards. A rate was also fixed to be paid by those who pastured cattle (on this undivided land) but for the larger and smaller animals. And this they did with a view to increase the numbers of the Italian people, whom they considered to be the most enduring of labour, in order that they might have domestic allies. But it turned out just the contrary of their expectations. For the rich occupied the greater part of this undivided land, and at length, feeling confident that they should never be deprived of it, and getting hold of such portions as bordered on their lands, and also of the smaller portions in the possession of the poor, some by purchase and others by force, they became the cultivators of extensive districts instead of farms. And in order that their cultivators and shepherds might be free from military service, they employed slaves instead of freemen; and they derived great profit from their rapid increase, which was favoured by the immunity of the slaves from military service. In this way the great became very rich, and slaves were numerous throughout the country. But this system reduced the number of the Italians, who were ground down by poverty, taxes, and military service; and whenever they had a respite from these evils, they had nothing to do, the land being occupied by the rich, who also employed slaves instead of freemen."
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the agrarian law of P. Servilius Rullus, proposed in the consulship of Cicero B.C. 63, was to sell all the public land both in and out of Italy, and to buy lands in Italy on which the poor were to be settled... The law was dropped, but it was reproduced in a somewhat altered shape by C. Julius Caesar in his consulship, B.C. 59, and it included the Stellatis Ager p42 and the Campanus Ager, which all previous agrarian laws had left untouched.
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Result was, a quote from wiki:
Caesar proposed a law for redistributing public lands to the poor—by force of arms, if need be—a proposal supported by Pompey and by Crassus, making the triumvirate public. Pompey filled the city with soldiers, a move which intimidated the triumvirate's opponents. Bibulus attempted to declare the omens unfavourable and thus void the new law, but he was driven from the forum by Caesar's armed supporters.

The idea Caesar had there was I think for the general good of the people. His method to achieve his goal was Sulla inspired, the acts of a tyrant. But the Senate was a tyranny itself. What parts of this do Cato's fans point to?
 
Reading:Caesar: A Biography by Christian Meier, 1996
Interesting interaction between the Marcus Bibulus side and the Caesar side of a land redistribution law proposed, describe below. The Senate feared Caesar would gain popularity, and opposed diluting their own power in the Senate.

Agrariae Leges - Agrarian Laws


Result was, a quote from wiki:


The idea Caesar had there was I think for the general good of the people. His method to achieve his goal was Sulla inspired, the acts of a tyrant. But the Senate was a tyranny itself. What parts of this do Cato's fans point to?

Interesting. "Pompey filled the city with soldiers..." I wonder if that's what led to the law that generals had to leave their armies on the other side of the Rubicon, the law that Caesar defied?
If you get the chance, Caesar's Chronicles is well worth the read. When he was governor of Provence he led campaigns into Gaul for seven (I think) successive summers and wrote about them each winter. He went briefly into Germania and Britain.
 
Interesting. "Pompey filled the city with soldiers..." I wonder if that's what led to the law that generals had to leave their armies on the other side of the Rubicon, the law that Caesar defied?
If you get the chance, Caesar's Chronicles is well worth the read. When he was governor of Provence he led campaigns into Gaul for seven (I think) successive summers and wrote about them each winter. He went briefly into Germania and Britain.

I long ago read a book written by Caesar himself that seems to be the book your are describing, or part of it. It seemed very self-congratulatory.
 
I long ago read a book written by Caesar himself that seems to be the book your are describing, or part of it. It seemed very self-congratulatory.

Yeah, that's probably it. Modesty wasn't one of his virtues. But what a leader! His story of the seige of Alesia, where he captured Vercingitorix, was worth the price of admission.
 
Those times were the beginning of ruling by emperors, but the slide from republic to empire was gradual. Marius's reforms enabled the poor to become legionaries (with the state paying for their arms and armor instead of themselves) and it really began to upend the old checks and balances between the rich, poor and middle class. By Caesar's time the whole system was ready to collapse and it needed the right opportunity for ambitious men to finally take the reins of power and become dictator. He failed in the end, but it set the stage for his nephew to finally become emperor.
 
Those times were the beginning of ruling by emperors, but the slide from republic to empire was gradual. Marius's reforms enabled the poor to become legionaries (with the state paying for their arms and armor instead of themselves) and it really began to upend the old checks and balances between the rich, poor and middle class. By Caesar's time the whole system was ready to collapse and it needed the right opportunity for ambitious men to finally take the reins of power and become dictator. He failed in the end, but it set the stage for his nephew to finally become emperor.

Yes. The Republic seems like it was unable to expand it's influence beyond the city. It wasn't thinking enough about legitimacy with the public as the empire expanded.
 
....His story of the seige of Alesia, where he captured Vercingitorix, was worth the price of admission.

That's the only part I actually remember. Every time I've played Avalon Hill Alesia I'm reminded.
 
For all things Roman may I introduce you to The History of Rome podcast by Mike Duncan. It's finished, so no waiting for new episodes. 179 episodes, total running time of about 74 hours.

The History of Rome

The first dozen or so episodes are a bit rough, technically speaking. They get much better.
 
Salve Cletus!

I don't know how I missed this thread until now. The First Triumvirate was not so much interested in altruistic land reform as securing lands for the veterans of their legions to settle. The colonists to be settled on such lands were ex-legionnaires formerly in the service of Pompeius Magnus, Crassus and Julius Caesar. Food shortages caused by military problems in the East (Pontus and later the Parthians) and lower production from North Africa made domestic food production that much more necessary (and profitable) to these three ambitious men and their gangs of followers.

You might be interested in reading Suetonius' history for some primary source background flavour.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
That's the only part I actually remember. Every time I've played Avalon Hill Alesia I'm reminded.

Salve Cletus:

Caesar at Alesia was a great board-game and was so much fun that I went out years later and bought, painted up miniatures and scratch built fortifications to make a 15mm miniature version of the game. It was great fun too. Seeing hundreds of legionnaires in miniature defending against many hundreds of Gauls both in and outside the Roman siege-works was magnificent.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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