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History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

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James972

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American intellectuals argue that history is a straight line from Aristotle to Jefferson. Aristotle invented the idea of freedom from liberal govt and finally it grew big enough that a county (the USA) could be founded (with Jefferson's help) on the idea. When we study history and think about history this is what should concern us, primarily. Can anyone disagree?
 
James972 said:
American intellectuals argue that history is a straight line from Aristotle to Jefferson. Aristotle invented the idea of freedom from liberal govt and finally it grew big enough that a county (the USA) could be founded (with Jefferson's help) on the idea. When we study history and think about history this is what should concern us, primarily. Can anyone disagree?
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I think I would interpret societal organization as a struggle for sustainability i.e. optimization given the circumstances the society faces.
 
Harshaw said:
I don't think they do.
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Ethnically speaking, they don't, but it is a philosophical argument. Democracy's origin wasn't really in Athens, though.

It is important for judicial purposes to know the history of constitutional law, for example the original intent of the framers. If history is "nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt," then that branch of government would do well to know its enemy.
 
James972 said:
American intellectuals argue that history is a straight line from Aristotle to Jefferson. Aristotle invented the idea of freedom from liberal govt and finally it grew big enough that a county (the USA) could be founded (with Jefferson's help) on the idea. When we study history and think about history this is what should concern us, primarily. Can anyone disagree?
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Yes, because it offers the false dichotomy that you either have freedom or government. Were Jefferson's slaves free because of their liberal government?
 
Celebrity said:
Ethnically speaking, they don't, but it is a philosophical argument. Democracy's origin wasn't really in Athens, though.

It is important for judicial purposes to know the history of constitutional law, for example the original intent of the framers. If history is "nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt," then that branch of government would do well to know its enemy.
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They argue that the Founders derived their ideas from English tradition, Athenian democracy, and Roman Republicanism, but they don't argue that "history is a straight line."
 
James972 said:
American intellectuals argue that history is a straight line from Aristotle to Jefferson. Aristotle invented the idea of freedom from liberal govt and finally it grew big enough that a county (the USA) could be founded (with Jefferson's help) on the idea. When we study history and think about history this is what should concern us, primarily. Can anyone disagree?
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Actually, plenty of people can disagree. The US rapidly grew out of the "tiny tiny tiny" government that you love so much, and I don't see anybody saying it isn't free.
 
James972 said:
American intellectuals argue that history is a straight line from Aristotle to Jefferson. Aristotle invented the idea of freedom from liberal govt and finally it grew big enough that a county (the USA) could be founded (with Jefferson's help) on the idea. When we study history and think about history this is what should concern us, primarily. Can anyone disagree?
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History is a straight line from the Big Bang to me.
Just as true, just a bit more blatantly self-centered.
 
James972 said:
American intellectuals argue that history is a straight line from Aristotle to Jefferson. Aristotle invented the idea of freedom from liberal govt and finally it grew big enough that a county (the USA) could be founded (with Jefferson's help) on the idea. When we study history and think about history this is what should concern us, primarily. Can anyone disagree?
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That is a very linear and shallow view of history. What enabled american democratic republic is from numerous govts, and the collection of past successes and avoiding past failures. For example america follows more from the roman republic than it does from greek democracy, but is also a mixture of the two. Our court systems are a mixture of british common law precedent and british structure yet we use the viking style jury of peers.

I could go on, but in simple society and history is never a straight line, and even a society who copies the success of another, likely got their success by copying others, even oppressive and barbaric govts. I would call history from then to now a zigzag or a spiral.
 
joG said:
I think I would interpret societal organization as a struggle for sustainability i.e. optimization given the circumstances the society faces.
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sustainability is a modern hippy word having to do with pollution. OP is about freedom as major trend in human history from Aristotle to Jefferson and Friedman.
 
Celebrity said:
If history is "nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt," then that branch of government would do well to know its enemy.
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what do you mean???
 
spud_meister said:
you either have freedom or government. Were Jefferson's slaves free because of their liberal government?
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did someone say they were free because of their liberal govt??? How can slaves be free?? Care to tell us what your point is if you know.
 
Harshaw said:
They argue that the Founders derived their ideas from English tradition, Athenian democracy, and Roman Republicanism, but they don't argue that "history is a straight line."
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if the history of freedom is not a straight line from Aristotle to Jefferson what is it? what other significant battle has shaped all of human history and culminated in the USA, the most exceptional country in human history by far.!
 
Tigerace117 said:
Actually, plenty of people can disagree. The US rapidly grew out of the "tiny tiny tiny" government that you love so much, and I don't see anybody saying it isn't free.
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conservatives and libertarians would say its not nearly as free as they would like it to be. Do you understand?
 
I disagree. To study and think of only one aspect of one time in history is absurd.
Who are these historians that promote that?
 
James972 said:
if the history of freedom is not a straight line from Aristotle to Jefferson what is it? what other significant battle has shaped all of human history and culminated in the USA, the most exceptional country in human history by far.!
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:confused:
 
HK.227 said:
History is a straight line from the Big Bang to me.
Just as true, just a bit more blatantly self-centered.
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History is a straight line from big bang to the entire universe, not just to you. Do you have any idea what your point is?
 
beerftw said:
That is a very linear and shallow view of history. What enabled american democratic republic is from numerous govts, and the collection of past successes and avoiding past failures. For example america follows more from the roman republic than it does from greek democracy, but is also a mixture of the two. Our court systems are a mixture of british common law precedent and british structure yet we use the viking style jury of peers.

I could go on, but in simple society and history is never a straight line, and even a society who copies the success of another, likely got their success by copying others, even oppressive and barbaric govts. I would call history from then to now a zigzag or a spiral.
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the point is not whether it was perfectly straight or zigzag but whether the variables were freedom and govt. Now do you understand?
 
Mach said:
I disagree. To study and think of only one aspect of one time in history is absurd.
Who are these historians that promote that?
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why absurd to think about the 2 most important variables in human history??
 
James972 said:
why absurd to think about the 2 most important variables in human history??
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Because I was debating with James972 from yesterday at 4:11pm, who wrote this:

When we study history and think about history this is what should concern us, primarily.
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This new James from today argues:
James972 said:
why absurd to think about the 2 most important variables in human history??
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Should we think about freedom from government and its expression in what is the United States, when we think about history? Sure, as part of that part of history, why not?

So I disagree with the first guy, and I suppose I agree with the second.
 
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