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Thread: History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

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    Re: History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

    Quote Originally Posted by zyzygy View Post
    What a boring blog.
    what do you think history is about?? What could be less boring than knowing the simple key to history?

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    Re: History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I think I would interpret societal organization as a struggle for sustainability i.e. optimization given the circumstances the society faces.
    Aristotle and Jefferson stood for freedom, not sustainability. Today you can still vote for freedom but not sustainability a term which really has no meaning anyway.

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    Re: History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

    Quote Originally Posted by James972 View Post
    Aristotle and Jefferson stood for freedom, not sustainability. Today you can still vote for freedom but not sustainability a term which really has no meaning anyway.
    Your ignorance of actual history reigns supreme I see. Without sustainability, a society will soon disappear. Without food, shelter, economic interactions - all fitting within the framework of " sustainability", there can be no freedom, other than the freedom to die.

    How do you define "freedom"?
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

    Quote Originally Posted by James972 View Post
    Aristotle and Jefferson stood for freedom, not sustainability. Today you can still vote for freedom but not sustainability a term which really has no meaning anyway.
    So you don't understand what words mean?

    I think we've FINALLY found out what's been your problem for this entire thread.
    Well, he see this one particularly hot chick and not does she bag he slackjawed, but he lets a "Whoa" slip out

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    Re: History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

    Quote Originally Posted by James972 View Post
    Aristotle and Jefferson stood for freedom, not sustainability. Today you can still vote for freedom but not sustainability a term which really has no meaning anyway.
    Our luck i.e. wisdom has been that freedom is an overriding factor of economic efficiency. It is this (among others) that has made the US model so sustainable.

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    Re: History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I think I would interpret societal organization as a struggle for sustainability i.e. optimization given the circumstances the society faces.
    But that in no way addresses the question.
    RIP THE EUROPEAN FORUM 2016

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    Re: History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Our luck i.e. wisdom has been that freedom is an overriding factor of economic efficiency. It is this (among others) that has made the US model so sustainable.
    who's talking about sustainability? conservatives and liberals both think their way of life is most sustainable. issue is do you think sustainability or justice or wealth or happiness comes from freedom or libcommie govt. Freedom or govt is the choice Plato and Aristotle gave us and the choice the voting booth still gives us. Now you have the tools to think about history in an organized way and productive way.

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    Re: History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

    Quote Originally Posted by James972 View Post
    who's talking about sustainability? conservatives and liberals both think their way of life is most sustainable. issue is do you think sustainability or justice or wealth or happiness comes from freedom or libcommie govt. Freedom or govt is the choice Plato and Aristotle gave us and the choice the voting booth still gives us. Now you have the tools to think about history in an organized way and productive way.
    Many who have posted in this thread have shown that they have the tools to understand history and the multitude of ways in which it affects our daily lives and there are a couple, no names, who have shown they haven't a freakin' clue.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Many who have posted in this thread have shown that they have the tools to understand history and the multitude of ways in which it affects our daily lives and there are a couple, no names, who have shown they haven't a freakin' clue.
    no idea what you mean. Issue is do you agree with Plato and Aristotle and modern voting booth or not, and why?

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    Re: History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

    Quote Originally Posted by James972 View Post
    no idea what you mean. Issue is do you agree with Plato and Aristotle and modern voting booth or not, and why?
    How does one agree with both Plato and Aristotle when Aristotle, Plato's student, disagreed with some of Plato's thoughts on governance?

    Plato saw five basic forms of governing:
    Aristocracy - in which a ruling class of well-educated men determines the actions of the society, the aristocrats are supported by a military caste in maintaining order and providing for the expansion of the state thru conquest. Then there is the majority, who are allowed to own property, carry out economic transactions to feed and supply the populace, but who are not given a voice in governing. The slaves don't count in any way. One point that Plato emphasized as central to the idea of a proper aristocracy - aristocrats were not to own property or to enrich themselves by their position in the society, all of their actions were for the greater good and not for themselves.

    2 Timocracy, a society/culture in which some members of the working class, seen by Plato as having inferior souls, weasel their way into the ruling class. Though the society's form stays similar to aristocracy, Plato saw these inferior souls as subverting the rational philosophy supported by the true aristocracy, with more attention paid to personal aggrandisement by those inferiors who had become 'aristocrats'.

    3 Oligarchy, a society in which the pursuit of wealth by the upper class becomes more important than the teaching of virtuous living by the aristocrats. In order to ensure they increase their wealth, laws are instigated suppressing the workers. Laws which limit property rights, the type of education allowed and restrictions are placed on the type of work that may be done by a group within the working class.

    4 Democracy, is seen as a breakdown of oligarchy, a culture where freedom is the supreme good but freedom is also slavery. In democracy, the lower class grows bigger and bigger. The poor become the winners. People are free to do what they want and live how they want. A bit like Randian libertarianism

    5 Tyranny, the final stage as a society disintegrates owing to the failures of democracy, when the uneducated began to make new laws, everyone begins to suffer and finally a great leader is seen as necessary to provide stability and safety even though many will suffer as the tyrant expands military forces with the resultant need for more funding which means higher taxes on the people.

    Aristotle, wasn't quite enamoured with what he saw as Plato's rather simplistic views of society. As the following quote from Stanford University's Philosophy Dept shows, Aristotle's primary value today is his emphasis on discussion between various groups in a society, in order to attain more sustainable goals.
    Most scholars of Aristotle make no attempt to show that he is aligned with any contemporary ideology. Rather, insofar as they find him relevant to our times, it is because he offers a remarkable synthesis of idealism and realpolitik unfolding in deep and thought-provoking discussions of perennial concerns of political philosophy: the role of human nature in politics, the relation of the individual to the state, the place of morality in politics, the theory of political justice, the rule of law, the analysis and evaluation of constitutions, the relevance of ideals to practical politics, the causes and cures of political change and revolution, and the importance of a morally educated citizenry.
    For both men, education was a central part of a successful culture, the primary difference between their time and ours is that they thought only those born into a certain social class could possess the intellect necessary for fully understanding a full education and then also be able to apply their education to the society in ways which would benefit all. In the modern developed world, America is beginning to drop behind other nations in the education field as there are those in this country who apparently believe as the ancient Greek philosophers taught -- only certain people are qualified to receive a full education.

    A less-educated people are easier to manipulate, easier to persuade in believing what the leaders want them to believe, and as a consequence the voting booth becomes a farcical show where democracy does nothing but support the leaders' wishes, nevermind the harm to the majority.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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